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MousaThe14 Writer, Artist, Ignored from Northern Virginia Since: Jan, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Writer, Artist, Ignored
#38151: Aug 5th 2016 at 8:45:22 AM

They probably won't be bad forever, but we don't know that and with uncertainty, we can only go with what's presented right now and while it most likely wasn't intentional it is still the sort of message they're presenting.

One has to understand not everyone talks about these things like we do, in fact most people don't. And there are going to be a lot of kids watching the show and not all of the mare going to have a great grasp on nuance, this is going to be the impression they're getting. Hell most grown adults don't grasp nuance particularly well.

edited 5th Aug '16 8:46:29 AM by MousaThe14

The Blog The Art
xanderiskander Since: Mar, 2012
#38152: Aug 5th 2016 at 8:47:22 AM

Does Sadie's Mom count as a buff woman?

BlueBlaze64 The Watcher on the Tower from Empire City Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
The Watcher on the Tower
#38153: Aug 5th 2016 at 8:47:51 AM

It's not to say that the show is bad, I'm just very critical of things I like.

Being critical of what you like is a good thing. Just look at the quote in my signature. smile

edited 5th Aug '16 8:48:55 AM by BlueBlaze64

"The cruelest thing you can do to an artist is tell them their work is flawless when it isn't." -Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw
DeathsApprentice The Ultimate Lifeform from The Ark Since: Aug, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
The Ultimate Lifeform
#38154: Aug 5th 2016 at 8:51:12 AM

[up][up] Well, people did assume she was Sadie's dad when we first saw her, so... maybe? At the very least, she's pretty masculine-looking.

edited 5th Aug '16 8:51:44 AM by DeathsApprentice

When we're done, there won't be anything left.
SilentColossus (Don’t ask)
#38155: Aug 5th 2016 at 8:57:23 AM

Yeah but Barbara is also a much more minor character. I like her but she could be drowned out by the other characters.

edited 5th Aug '16 8:58:25 AM by SilentColossus

FawfulCrump Since: Dec, 2010
#38156: Aug 5th 2016 at 8:57:54 AM

I don't think an action being done without bad intentions means that action should be free from discussion or criticism. Even the best pieces of media mess up sometimes, but we shouldn't take fans pointing out that they messed up as an insult to ourselves or the show's creators.

I'm still pretty bewildered at Steven giving a completely sincere You Are a Credit to Your Race speech about Pearl in "Back At The Barn". C'mon, Crewniverse, Justice League and Teen Titans criticized stuff like that over a decade ago!

edited 5th Aug '16 9:02:16 AM by FawfulCrump

xanderiskander Since: Mar, 2012
#38157: Aug 5th 2016 at 8:58:09 AM

Jasper's not a minor character? :P

[up]If that's directed at me then I'm not taking it as an insult to anyone.

I have an issue with the kind of arguments they're making because the logic behind it is based on appearances, and not any actual message the show is trying to send. The logic behind it is based on superficial and shallow judgments. They're using the same logic that people use to generalize whole groups of people in real life.

edited 5th Aug '16 9:17:56 AM by xanderiskander

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#38158: Aug 5th 2016 at 9:01:29 AM

Well, Barbara's only appeared in two episodes, and only had a major role in one, so yeah, Jasper has her beat there.

Oh God! Natural light!
BlueBlaze64 The Watcher on the Tower from Empire City Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
The Watcher on the Tower
#38159: Aug 5th 2016 at 9:02:57 AM

Well, since it didn't happen at the end of the episode, I wonder what darker context the opening lines from the episode are going to be used in later:

"Oh my goodness!" "Go for it, bro!" "This is your last chance!"

"The cruelest thing you can do to an artist is tell them their work is flawless when it isn't." -Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#38160: Aug 5th 2016 at 9:05:57 AM

What makes you think they'll be used again?

Oh God! Natural light!
BlueBlaze64 The Watcher on the Tower from Empire City Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
The Watcher on the Tower
#38161: Aug 5th 2016 at 9:18:16 AM

[up] I got that it was one of those "playing up the mundane situation to appear more dramatic" jokes, but those lines seem too perfect to not be used later on in a more meaningful context, like some kind of Final Battle.

I don't know, maybe I'm trying a little too hard to see the foreshadowing coming. But if I'm right...

edited 5th Aug '16 9:22:34 AM by BlueBlaze64

"The cruelest thing you can do to an artist is tell them their work is flawless when it isn't." -Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw
darkabomination Since: Mar, 2012
#38162: Aug 5th 2016 at 9:23:07 AM

What about Ruby? She's pretty non-traditionally feminine. Amethyst is small, but she's a likable, sympathetic character that usually prefers to dawn muscular/non-human appearances and this isn't presented as a bad thing at all. There's also Garnet.

This really feels like nitpicking to me.

Anyway, anyone think we should split Steven's character entry as its own subpage to save space?

Let's not go crazy like the FIM character pages and spin one off for everybody, but as the main character it stands to reason he takes up the most tropes.

TheFox Quick like... Since: Jan, 2013
Quick like...
#38163: Aug 5th 2016 at 9:24:02 AM

[up]Giving Steven his own page sounds pretty logical to me.

FawfulCrump Since: Dec, 2010
#38164: Aug 5th 2016 at 9:25:48 AM

@xanderiskander: I'd probably be making a more detailed response if I weren't on mobile, but I'll just say that my post was more generally about the discussion than any particular person.

smokeycut Since: Mar, 2013
#38165: Aug 5th 2016 at 9:31:11 AM

Ruby is small and cute. That's not the same as being a big beefy woman. Amethyst's entire character arc is about how she isn't like Jasper physically. And again, Garnet isn't big and broad and beefy like Jasper and Bismuth. She's thin and curvy.

edited 5th Aug '16 9:32:11 AM by smokeycut

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#38166: Aug 5th 2016 at 9:31:45 AM

"I don't think an action being done without bad intentions means that action should be free from discussion or criticism"

Maybe but problem come when you add bad intention of hat can be consider a mistake or even coincidence, I mean yeah beff chararter so far have been more radical and prone to violence, but to said it send a message is really go far because is more one interting that way.

They can do better? yeah, but is that bad as it show? meh.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
xanderiskander Since: Mar, 2012
#38167: Aug 5th 2016 at 9:41:43 AM

If you only have one woman appear in a story, and she's a giggling bimbo with no brain, she represents every woman in that story's world, because she's the only reference we have.
Turn this logic around. When you meet people in real life do you assume all people that look like them are the same? If not, then why would you assume that about fictional characters? Furthermore why do you have to assume that, based on a couple of sparse examples?

edited 5th Aug '16 9:46:20 AM by xanderiskander

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#38168: Aug 5th 2016 at 9:44:39 AM

Also, maybe Sugilite could be the third example of the "trend". It was Amethyst's insecurity about her own strength met with Garnet's power, and it was this huge, buff monster that nearly killed Pearl because it was power-tripping.

Why does Sugilite count but not Alexandrite? I can see where people are coming from with Jasper and Bismuth, even if I disagree, but throwing Sugilite into the mix really just seems like looking for Unfortunate Implications.

[up]That's my main thing. Like, even with the black person example that person used, no, if there's only one black person in the story (for some reason), I'm not just going to assume that means every black person in the story is evil or a thug or whatever. Especially not if the story takes times to establish the person as an actual person and not just "Haha I'm a gangbanger" or whatever, like the episode clearly did with Bismuth.

I said this before, stuff like this is how you end up with tropes like the Magical Negro.

edited 5th Aug '16 9:49:24 AM by LSBK

BlueBlaze64 The Watcher on the Tower from Empire City Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
The Watcher on the Tower
#38169: Aug 5th 2016 at 9:46:44 AM

Is the topic for this show really the third-largest Western Animation page in the forum, below FIM and Korra? I really didn't expect that.

"The cruelest thing you can do to an artist is tell them their work is flawless when it isn't." -Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#38170: Aug 5th 2016 at 9:49:30 AM

[up][up][up] Look at this way - if, for example, all the Asian characters in a movie are criminals, does this mean that all the Asian people that presumably exist in the movie's world are criminals? No, but it is all the movie cares to portray Asian characters as.

edited 5th Aug '16 9:50:19 AM by KarkatTheDalek

Oh God! Natural light!
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#38171: Aug 5th 2016 at 9:51:04 AM

Or the way Hollywood portrays all Asian characters as martial artists and mystics and such. The whole list of light-skinned / dark-skinned characterization conventions.

I do, however, think that in this case that's more generalizing than looking at the cases themselves - especially since in-universe Homeworld associates body types with roles in society, and that's both vitally important to why Jasper and Bismuth do what they do while also causing the two to become what they are in individual ways.

edited 5th Aug '16 9:57:09 AM by KnownUnknown

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#38172: Aug 5th 2016 at 9:56:01 AM

Something else, maybe the last thing I have to say on the subject, is that it seems to me that people are envision Jasper and Bismuth to be created as "butch women" first where to me, it makes more sense that the characters were created first, an then because they're Gems, they were made female.

Like, the big and buff Blood Knight warrior is a common thing, and the beefy blacksmith isn't that uncommon, either. There are reasons that Jasper and Bismuth each fill those rolls in the story, respectively, for good reason and because Gems, they make them female.

Even ignoring how two examples does not for a trend, it's probably better to look at it from that perspective. Obviously, I can't say this for certain, but it just makes a lot more sense that it works that way to me.

edited 5th Aug '16 9:57:10 AM by LSBK

xanderiskander Since: Mar, 2012
#38173: Aug 5th 2016 at 10:00:58 AM

[up][up][up]That's a very different example from this though, because in that example there's a large pool of characters to glean an intent from. That's not the case here with only a couple of examples, and the second one being largely a coincidence. In Steven Universe's case, it's more of a mental thing, than anything else.

Even then, it would only be intentional in your example if the story gives us a reason to think that's their intent. But more likely than not if there were a film with a large amount of asian characters there'd also be innocent bystanders and heroes who are as well.

edited 5th Aug '16 10:06:25 AM by xanderiskander

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#38174: Aug 5th 2016 at 10:04:37 AM

Why are we still bringing in drama from Tumblr?

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#38175: Aug 5th 2016 at 10:07:17 AM

[up][up] I mean, I never said how many Asian people were criminals in that case. It could have been a large number, but it also could have been just two or three. Either way, they would have been the entirety of the movie's representation of Asian people.

My point is that the problem isn't really the number of them, but the fact that they're all treated the same.

Now, I'll grant you that the situation here is more complicated, and the story is far from over. But I can understand Smokey and others' concern, and I hope that the show can move away from this in the future - in fact, I'm confident that it will.

[up] I mean, this whole thing is a concern that people here have - I think that makes it a legitimate topic for discussion.

edited 5th Aug '16 10:09:03 AM by KarkatTheDalek

Oh God! Natural light!

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