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Cailleach Studious Girl from Purgatory Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
Studious Girl
#37801: Aug 4th 2016 at 4:53:53 PM

[up][up] I agree. This pacing was beautiful compared to the rush it usually it

edited 4th Aug '16 4:54:07 PM by Cailleach

PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#37802: Aug 4th 2016 at 4:54:10 PM

It's an interesting topic for a kid's show to be bringing up, whether saving people on your side of a conflict is worth the deaths on the other side. We've seen not all Homeworld gems are evil.

However, I believe an army leader in a war is responsible for saving as many of their own soldiers as possible. So yes, Rose is a bad army leader. A good Messianic Archetype, maybe, but a bad army leader.

Oissu!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#37803: Aug 4th 2016 at 4:55:39 PM

It's not really fair base that on one decision. She apparently made a lot of them that earned Jasper's respect.

And this entire discussion is based on hypotheticals, assuming that this weapon would have saved lives, or somehow would have kept the Diamonds from doing whatever it is that they did that wiped out all the others besides Roes, Pearl, and Garnet.

Like, from a pragmatic standpoint, I agree taking it completely off the table was a bad call, but let's not make this out to be "If Rose had just used this they would have saved everyone", because that's ridiculous.

edited 4th Aug '16 4:57:43 PM by LSBK

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#37804: Aug 4th 2016 at 4:56:59 PM

I like the heavy idealism in this show, but I do think its ignoring the fact that this is a war and that you cannot expect to show mercy to your enemies, especially when they probably wouldn't show the same to you.

Bismuth may have been extreme about it, but she had a point that the Diamonds weren't likely just going to surrender if Rose's rebellion succeeded.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#37805: Aug 4th 2016 at 4:57:25 PM

[up][up]Letting your own forces risk death because you refuse to kill the people killing them is a pretty big decision.

edited 4th Aug '16 4:57:34 PM by PhiSat

Oissu!
DeathsApprentice The Ultimate Lifeform from The Ark Since: Aug, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
The Ultimate Lifeform
#37806: Aug 4th 2016 at 4:58:31 PM

I get why Bismuth was so pissed, honestly. She wakes up to find almost all of her friends shattered and for what? Homeworld still hasn't even technically been defeated, and they're still attacking, and if they had just used her weapon, they could have won and freed everyone, and all her friends would still be alive. But Rose said no to her weapon. Of course she was mad.

When we're done, there won't be anything left.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#37807: Aug 4th 2016 at 4:58:54 PM

[up][up]They were risking death to begin with. Like, we can't speak for everyone, obviously, but it's safe to say that Pearl and Garnet would side with Rose on this. From the way they talk, most of the troops would probably react the same way.

Like I said, completely taking it off the table was a bad call, but let's not make this out to be something that it's not. And if Bismuth reacted the way she did against Steven when Rose said no, I think that's supposed to be more of a reflection on Bismuth than Rose.

edited 4th Aug '16 5:00:51 PM by LSBK

thebandragoness Since: Feb, 2016
#37808: Aug 4th 2016 at 5:00:09 PM

Am I the only one who actually bought into Bismuth's theory about Steven merely being Rose Quartz faking amnesia for a split-second before realizing how many holes it had?

Also, I think it's worth considering that Homeworld probably has hundreds of thousands of Bismuths in reserve, and if the Crystal Gems' Bismuth started building weapons that can shatter gems instantly, Homeworld's Bismuths would probably be able to copy it pretty easily and start churning out their own version a hundred times faster. Rose probably vetoed the weapon because she didn't want to cause escalation, on top of the Thou Shalt Not Kill aspect of it.

I've got Frozen, Spectacular Spider-Man, Crash, Spyro, and Paper Mario fanfics.
dmysta3000 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#37809: Aug 4th 2016 at 5:00:40 PM

One thing that kind of made Bismuth an even more tragic character is that she still didnt say anything about her dissagrement with Rose because she didnt want to ruin the memory of her for Steven and the gems.

GUNDAMU GUNDAMU
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#37810: Aug 4th 2016 at 5:00:50 PM

The decision not to use the weapon caused a lot more lost lives than necessary and that's the real problem.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#37811: Aug 4th 2016 at 5:01:37 PM

[up]Again, that's assumption, we don't really know what the effect would have been, which is the real problem.

At this point I don't think it's an idealism debate, just people jumping to conclusions one way or the other.

edited 4th Aug '16 5:02:27 PM by LSBK

PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#37812: Aug 4th 2016 at 5:01:52 PM

I just wish it was presented with more moral ambiguity than it was. I think Bismuth overreacted, having a Freak Out moment and trying to poof or maybe even shatter Steven, but I don't see Rose as being right in this decision either.

Oissu!
FawfulCrump Since: Dec, 2010
#37813: Aug 4th 2016 at 5:02:53 PM

I don't want this show to have nothing but half-hour episodes, but I wouldn't mind a few per season. "Story For Steven" and "The Answer" definitely should have been a half-hour long.

Regarding the episode itself, it followed a pretty standard plot line ( New guy is awesome at everything, new guy turns out to be kinda bad), but it had enough added emotional weight and character depth where it was good anyway. "Then you really are better than her" gave me chills.

Austin Since: Jan, 2001
#37815: Aug 4th 2016 at 5:04:13 PM

I was spoiled on the fact that Bismuth was the Gem in Lion's mane, and that she was the person who poofed Amethyst. But I wasn't bothered by that spoiler, because I had no idea what her role in the story would be. The reason I was so annoyed at the promo for this week is because it seemed to spoil that Bismuth would be a new ally of the Crystal Gems. I was hoping her role would be somewhat antagonistic. I didn't need her to be an outright villain, but I had hoped that her goal would be something that would bring her into conflict with the rest of the Crystal Gems, such as wanting to fight Homeworld in a way they wouldn't approve.

I wasn't convinced (or maybe I was just in denial) that I should take the promo at face value. We first see Bismuth attacking Lapis in flashback. We don't know the full context of that scene, and Bismuth may have had good reason to think Lapis was fighting for Homeworld, or the fight was so chaotic she was just attacking anyone not on her side. But the fact that our first glimpse of this character was of her attacking another character we're meant to be sympathetic towards raised a red flag, as if the writers were saying "Be wary of her". Hearing that the crew approved the promo also made me suspicious, because I don't see why they would openly spoil something so big unless there was more going on.

I've been critical of how certain plotlines have turned out in the past. But in this case, I got exactly what I wanted. So thank you, Crewniverse. We're square.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#37816: Aug 4th 2016 at 5:04:17 PM

Also, it might help if you don't take Steven's point-of-view as just right as default. If he had reacted any other way, he'd be out of character, but that doesn't mean there can't be a discussion on the merits of whatever.

edited 4th Aug '16 5:07:43 PM by LSBK

BlueBlaze64 The Watcher on the Tower from Empire City Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
The Watcher on the Tower
#37817: Aug 4th 2016 at 5:05:43 PM

Rose didn't tell the other Gems about what Bismuth made because she didn't want them to think less of their best friend, and thought it would be better for them to believe she got shattered than tell them she became obsessed with winning the rebellion. But she kept her around because she still saw good in her.

What's worse is that Steven had to do it all over again.

"I'll tell them everything." "Then you really are better than her."

...That was heavy.

edited 4th Aug '16 5:06:33 PM by BlueBlaze64

"The cruelest thing you can do to an artist is tell them their work is flawless when it isn't." -Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw
PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#37818: Aug 4th 2016 at 5:06:34 PM

I try not to see Steven as being by default right. However, we don't get to see any other viewpoints but his on the issue. He is the main character but I wish we could have seen some of how the other gems reacted to Bismuth's weapon.

Oissu!
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#37819: Aug 4th 2016 at 5:06:42 PM

[up][up]Bismuth never poofed Amethyst.

Oh really when?
diyedas Since: Feb, 2010
#37820: Aug 4th 2016 at 5:07:41 PM

[up]x3Yep, I think that was the reason Rose didn't tell anyone about it too. Also it might've been that she didn't want anyone else in the Crystal Gems to get any ideas from Bismuth's weapon.

edited 4th Aug '16 5:07:49 PM by diyedas

PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#37821: Aug 4th 2016 at 5:08:28 PM

Oh, also, Centepeedle might have been a Nephrite, based on Bismuth mentioning Pearl pulling a Nephrite out of a cockpit.

Oissu!
JBC31187 Since: Jan, 2015
#37822: Aug 4th 2016 at 5:09:16 PM

I just can't see Rose as the moral victor here. So she refused to use a weapon that shattered Homeworld gems, but that weapon could have prevented gems on her side from being shattered. So that would still make her responsible for gem deaths, and these deaths are gems on her side.

I think there are good, logical reasons for Rose refusing to use the Shatter Point, aside form "killing is wrong." Somebody already mentioned the nuclear taboo, and Homeworld's material advantage. Gems are immortal and regenerating. If the rebels start using lethal-only weapons, Homeworld isn't going to let that slide. And Homeworld can mass-produce weapons in far greater numbers than Bismuth could.

Second, the Crystal Gems don't really need the Shatter Point. They've got weapons that can take out a Gem's physical form without shattering the gem, and I don't think the Shatter Point is necessarily better than a sword or a spear- you've still got to get past the enemy's defenses to land the final blow. Although- Bismuth hung in there for a bit after Steven ran her through, so maybe the Shatter Point's quicker.

Third, if you start killing enemy Gems, you lose potential converts. Rose Quartz was a soldier made right here on Earth. Ruby and Sapphire were both loyal servants to Blue Diamond. Peridot tried to kill the Crystal Gems on several occasions. They were all on the wrong side, at one point or another, and even Quartzes like Amethyst were attracted to the Rebellion. I think if everyone knew the Crystal Gems were going to just kill the opposition, there would be fewer sympathizers and more of rush to end the war.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#37823: Aug 4th 2016 at 5:09:30 PM

Thought the same. Maybe they were a pilot species.

xanderiskander Since: Mar, 2012
#37824: Aug 4th 2016 at 5:09:42 PM

Also, it might help if you don't take Steven's point of view as just right by the default. If he had reacted any other way, he'd be out of character, but that doesn't mean there can't be a discussion on the merits of whatever.
Yeah this. The topic the episode brings up is itself pretty morally ambiguous, no matter what Steven thinks. I'd say it poses a similar question as the trolley problem

edited 4th Aug '16 5:10:59 PM by xanderiskander

DrDougsh Since: Jan, 2001
#37825: Aug 4th 2016 at 5:11:44 PM

I think it's questionable if Bismuth's weapon would actually have stopped Homeworld from corrupting most of the gems.

Even without the weapon, Rose's rebellion was strong enough to drive the Diamonds' forces away from Earth and force them to use their corrupting weapon on Earth. I see no reason to assume the Diamonds would have done anything different if the Crystal Gems had been more violent — they'd have evacuated Earth and used their weapon on anyone still there. Bismuth's tactics would not have changed the end result, they'd simply have added more casualties on the way to get there.


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