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BlueBlaze64 The Watcher on the Tower from Empire City Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
The Watcher on the Tower
#32901: Jun 1st 2016 at 7:39:19 PM

Season 1A:

[tup] : Coach Steven: Introduced new fusion + Character Development + cool song

[tdown] : Steven and the Stevens: Kind of forgettable

Season 1B:

[tup] : Lion 3: Straight to Video : The ending

[tdown] : Fusion Cuisine: Way too cliche for a show like this

Season 2:

[tup] : Sworn to the Sword: Character Development + amazing song

[tdown] : Sadie's Song/Historical Friction: Closest the show's ever gotten to filler

"The cruelest thing you can do to an artist is tell them their work is flawless when it isn't." -Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw
Cross (Don’t ask)
#32902: Jun 1st 2016 at 7:45:23 PM

Can't imagine why Stevens and the Stevens would be forgettable to you.

BlueBlaze64 The Watcher on the Tower from Empire City Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
The Watcher on the Tower
#32903: Jun 1st 2016 at 7:49:04 PM

[up]I was looking through the list of episodes, and that was literally the only 1A episode I didn't remember watching at first.

edited 1st Jun '16 7:49:16 PM by BlueBlaze64

"The cruelest thing you can do to an artist is tell them their work is flawless when it isn't." -Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#32904: Jun 1st 2016 at 7:51:24 PM

That's making mo' sense by the second.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#32905: Jun 1st 2016 at 9:04:15 PM

In steven and the stevens it make some sort of sense the diference because is pilot adapted, even them Steven sort look like dick in that episode

Also I like winter holyday more that future vision seen it explain better Garnet power, also future vision use the whole "Steven rush judgment" yet again, it get tiring after a while

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
thatother1dude from Land of the Ill, Annoyin' Since: Jan, 2001
#32906: Jun 1st 2016 at 9:11:28 PM

Closest the show's ever gotten to filler
Considering how often "filler" is functionally a euphemism for "the parts I don't like", as a complaint that's tautological—basically saying "I dislike it because it's bad".

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#32907: Jun 1st 2016 at 9:11:48 PM

[up][up]He's only a jerk to himself...he's only allowed to be a jerk to himself.

Rush judgement? Future Vision was him being paranoid...kind of justified.

Paranoia episodes are the only time I find a show relateable...

edited 1st Jun '16 9:12:05 PM by randomness4

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
BlueBlaze64 The Watcher on the Tower from Empire City Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
The Watcher on the Tower
#32908: Jun 1st 2016 at 9:18:17 PM

[up][up] I consider filler episodes that develop neither the general plot, an occurring arc, or any characters.

"The cruelest thing you can do to an artist is tell them their work is flawless when it isn't." -Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw
thatother1dude from Land of the Ill, Annoyin' Since: Jan, 2001
#32909: Jun 1st 2016 at 9:24:25 PM

Why is a story contained to one episode filler when one spread over multliple episodes is not?

xanderiskander Since: Mar, 2012
#32910: Jun 1st 2016 at 9:43:13 PM

You can have filler spread over multiple episodes too. Anime does that a lot.

And anyway that's not his point. It's filler, when you could ignore it / remove it from the show, and not lose any major information about the show by not having it. Since it doesn't further any part of the plot or any of the characters.

edited 1st Jun '16 9:58:19 PM by xanderiskander

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#32911: Jun 1st 2016 at 9:59:55 PM

It's difficult to pin any episode of this show as filler, given how much the series emphasizes slice of life and focus episodes as an essential part of its flavor.

For reasons like that, I've always found fans declaring episodes of series, especially series that aren't one-to-one adapted from another medium (which is the only situation where the term filler really has any meaning), that don't fit specific plotlines unimportant and filler to be presumptuous at best.

As thatother1dude implies, it's generally just fans trying to dictate what they've decided the series are supposed to be about - usually incorrectly - and then dismissing things that aren't part of that. As well as trying to use very specific criteria to decide what does and doesn't fit into the narrative of the series.

edited 1st Jun '16 10:17:22 PM by KnownUnknown

thatother1dude from Land of the Ill, Annoyin' Since: Jan, 2001
#32912: Jun 1st 2016 at 10:03:30 PM

Even going by BlueBlazes64's definition, "Historical Friction" was a significant part of the "Week of Sardonyx" plotline, and by extension developing Pearl's character, and had some minor developments for Dewey. "Sadie's Song" also developed Sadie and Barb—by default for the latter, because that's the first episode she speaks has any significant role in. "Any character" includes the ones you may not care about or think are important.

It's filler, when you could remove it from the show, and not lose anything.
"Anything" includes "entertainment value", so it's just saying "it's bad".

You can have filler spread over multiple episodes too. Anime does that a lot.
That's almost always "filler" in a very specific, objectively defined sense: scenes and plots added to an otherwise literal adaptation to take up air time so the show can keep going without running ahead of the source material's plot. Steven Universe is not an adapted work, and while seasons have to be a certain number of episodes, you shouldn't assume that to be the crew's sole intent for any given episode.

edited 1st Jun '16 10:10:13 PM by thatother1dude

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#32913: Jun 1st 2016 at 10:08:44 PM

Sadie's Song isn't the first episode Barb speaks in. She speaks in Love Letters.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
MightyMatilda Mr. Clueless from New Jersey, USA Since: Jan, 2015
Mr. Clueless
#32914: Jun 1st 2016 at 10:18:37 PM

[up][up]"Filler" is also often used for original series to describe episodes that don't advance the ongoing plot. Usually, they exist because there need to be a certain number of episodes a season, but why a season has them isn't really important. Keep in mind that words can have different meanings in different contexts.

edited 1st Jun '16 10:19:46 PM by MightyMatilda

De Romanīs, lingua Latina gloriosa non fuī.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#32915: Jun 1st 2016 at 10:22:05 PM

[up] That's largely a fan definition, though, and as both I and thatotherdude have been pointing out, it's intrinstically flawed in a lot of ways (most obviously that it implies that "the ongoing plot," which is often difficult to actually define in the first place, is the only real or important part of a series even in situations where that's clearly not the case).

Also, he just pointed out that this:

Usually, they exist because there need to be a certain number of episodes a season

Is a total assumption. Especially nowadays. And especially when it comes to this show.

edited 1st Jun '16 10:25:26 PM by KnownUnknown

MightyMatilda Mr. Clueless from New Jersey, USA Since: Jan, 2015
Mr. Clueless
#32916: Jun 1st 2016 at 10:25:16 PM

So, the argument is that a fan, talking among other fans, shouldn't have used a fan term that another fan disliked? I mean, is arguing about word usage really worth the effort?

De Romanīs, lingua Latina gloriosa non fuī.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#32917: Jun 1st 2016 at 10:26:12 PM

It's more an argument against Weasel Words. The problem is people using "filler" to mean whatever parts of the series they think shouldn't be important, as if it actually makes those parts not important.

edited 1st Jun '16 10:28:44 PM by KnownUnknown

MightyMatilda Mr. Clueless from New Jersey, USA Since: Jan, 2015
Mr. Clueless
#32918: Jun 1st 2016 at 10:31:37 PM

No, people use the word "filler" because they honestly think those episodes are pointless. They don't think using words will alter reality.

De Romanīs, lingua Latina gloriosa non fuī.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#32919: Jun 1st 2016 at 10:32:27 PM

"Alter reality?"

Anyway, yeah. That's exactly what I said. They think those episodes are pointless. That doesn't mean the episodes aren't pointless, of course - only that it doesn't fit what they want out of the series.

Calling them filler in that case just makes the word lose meaning, since it makes the whole thing YMMV. As pointed out, there's really only one situation where the word filler had an actual definition, and it generally doesn't apply to Western shows.

edited 1st Jun '16 10:35:02 PM by KnownUnknown

xanderiskander Since: Mar, 2012
#32920: Jun 1st 2016 at 10:35:48 PM

"Anything" includes "entertainment value", so it's just saying "it's bad".
you shouldn't twist people's words. You know what I meant. It's If you can skip it without losing any crucial information. You even ignored my edit clarifying this.

That's almost always "filler" in a very specific, objectively defined sense: scenes and plots added to an otherwise literal adaptation to take up air time
They do it in the manga too to meet deadlines. Tournament Arcs are one of example of this that can go on for an obnoxiously long time.

Is a total assumption. Especially nowadays. And especially when it comes to this show.
And assuming they pad their seasons is wrong for some reason? Why? Because you say so?

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#32921: Jun 1st 2016 at 10:37:54 PM

Accusing them of only making certain episodes to fill in time in the season when you have no actual evidence that that's why they decided to make those episodes is an assumption, for reasons that honestly should be obvious.

edited 1st Jun '16 10:40:42 PM by KnownUnknown

MightyMatilda Mr. Clueless from New Jersey, USA Since: Jan, 2015
Mr. Clueless
#32922: Jun 1st 2016 at 10:38:40 PM

@Known Unknown: You did say "as if it actually makes those parts not important". I don't know how else to interpret that besides "they think using certain words will change reality".

De Romanīs, lingua Latina gloriosa non fuī.
xanderiskander Since: Mar, 2012
#32923: Jun 1st 2016 at 10:39:51 PM

[up][up]I didn't say it wasn't an assumption. I said you seem to think that assumption is wrong. Seemingly only for the reason that you don't like it.

I don't think they care if anyone assumes that, and you shouldn't either.

edited 1st Jun '16 10:46:05 PM by xanderiskander

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#32924: Jun 1st 2016 at 10:40:23 PM

Sure. As long as one recognizes that the assumption isn't true or anything.

Accusing people of doing something on nothing but assumptions that they've done it is typically considered wrong for moral reasons, but as long as someone is just speculating there's no problem.

[up][up] How about "in order to make their subjective opinion look like it has objective weight"? That's why people usually use Weasel Words.

edited 1st Jun '16 10:45:57 PM by KnownUnknown

thatother1dude from Land of the Ill, Annoyin' Since: Jan, 2001
#32925: Jun 2nd 2016 at 1:09:59 AM

Totally separate topic: there's a SU marathon that is officially advertised as "Peridot's Redemption" and basically has its own "Clods" compilation.

You know what I meant.
My entire point is that the term "filler" is much less rigorous and meaningful than people treat it as—that what you mean is just a cliche treated as a well-formed criticism.

It's If you can skip it without losing any crucial information.
Crucial to who? There are so many things this requires assuming about a given viewer's interests in a show.

You even ignored my edit clarifying this.
I wrote the part with that quote before you made that edit.

Calling them filler in that case just makes the word lose meaning, since it makes the whole thing YMMV.
The problem isn't even subjectivity/objectivity, it's that the term is uninformative as a critique because it's so vague and tends to oversimplify a work of fiction's value. It's just barely-obfuscated gainsaying, not a solid argument, which is just lazy.

I don't think they care if anyone assumes that, and you shouldn't either.
There are two similar, but very different assumptions one may be making:
  1. The network greenlights X episodes, so the staff come up with X episodes: Because episodes are purchased several at a time, this happens unless the staff came up with episode pitches so far in advance that the approvals never caught up.
  2. The staff wanted to make fewer episodes than they were required to: This also happens sometimes, but not nearly as much as people think.

The latter is claiming to know the creators' intent in a massively arrogant way, especially when you start saying a specific episode would have been cut (which is also insulting to the staff of that episode, because you're implying they were the ones stuck with the unimportant work). And it's usually for the sake of criticizing those episodes even though it's besides the point of their actual quality.


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