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Hodor Cleric of Banjo from Westeros Since: Dec, 1969
Cleric of Banjo
#1: Jan 24th 2013 at 10:07:06 AM

Hi, wondered if anyone else read/was a fan of Abercrombie and The First Law series.

I've been reading Best Served Cold and really enjoying it (I haven't read the first trilogy yet in full, but basically know the backdrop and who the characters being referenced in BSC are).

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MrShine Since: Jun, 2011 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
#2: Jan 24th 2013 at 10:13:51 AM

I've read all 6 of his novels, finished Red Country about a month ago. Definitely one of my favourite active authors and i'll pick up whatever he writes without hesitation.

DrTentacles Cephalopod Lothario from Land of the Deep Ones Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Cephalopod Lothario
#3: Jan 24th 2013 at 12:29:33 PM

Yup. I've read all his books. It's fun. I feel like he's almost went from an deconstruction The First Law to a reconstruction of the genre (which I think is badly needed right now) with A Red Country

Hodor Cleric of Banjo from Westeros Since: Dec, 1969
Cleric of Banjo
#4: Jan 25th 2013 at 10:53:12 PM

One thing I like about Abercrombie, outside the books themselves is that he seems a really nice guy in his blog posts/comments. It's interesting and refreshing that when he received criticism of female characterization in The First Law that he took it to heart and looked back and what he had written and admitted his weak areas/made an effort to improve it in subsequent works.

And I think the Decon-Recon Switch has to do with that quality of reevaluating previous works. For instance, I'm interested in reading Red Country knowing that Cosca is in it, and has become a very villainous character. Reading Best Served Cold, I've gotten the sense that while it is more pronounced with Shivers, Cosca experiences a similar "epiphany" that Being Good Sucks /Evil Feels Good- or less cynically, it's like both men wanted to overcome their weaknesses, and concluded that their positive impulses were one of those weaknesses. So, its not too surprising where he ended up in Red Country.

Love Shenkt. Always like works that take a character whose rough outline would suggest a total monster, but then have then have them ironically be one of the most moral/heroic characters (This might also relate to the gender thing I noted, but Vitari comes off less evil in BSC/Monza's POV than she did in Gloka's).

edited 25th Jan '13 10:53:27 PM by Hodor

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Hodor Cleric of Banjo from Westeros Since: Dec, 1969
Cleric of Banjo
#5: Jan 28th 2013 at 8:24:12 PM

Sorry for the double post, but just started a character page for Red Country. That could use wiki magic as could the magic for that novel. (Its kind of confusing how the pages are organized. Could use some help with that too.)

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DrTentacles Cephalopod Lothario from Land of the Deep Ones Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Cephalopod Lothario
#6: Jan 29th 2013 at 6:06:13 AM

I'll help when I get home from work. The pages for it are badly in need of love.

Hodor Cleric of Banjo from Westeros Since: Dec, 1969
Cleric of Banjo
#7: Jan 29th 2013 at 7:38:22 AM

Thanks.

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Phoenixflame Since: Nov, 2012
#8: Feb 9th 2013 at 7:34:51 AM

Eee! I love Abercrombie!

Glokta's my favorite. He's such an unusual character for a fantasy novel...at least, a non-villain character. Same with Calder. Shenkt's his own level of badass. There's a fan theory that he's King Casamir, now an Eater. He seems to really have a grudge against Bayaz. Vitari calls him Cas evil grin

What I love about his books is how you can get slammed with "things never change" and "things usually get worse rather than better" without them feeling like exercises in futility. His works are dark, but they don't wallow in darkness and go streaking. The humor helps. "Apologize to my fucking dice!" had me in hysterics.

Cosca's awesome. It's cool how your perception of him changes. In the trilogy he's a neat rake. In BSC he starts out pathetic and becomes awesome again. Then in Red Country he's Jumping Off the Slippery Slope. I didn't get Evil Feels Good from him, so much as Evil is Easy, and the flaws in his character will always find him doing the easier, nastier thing. They never explain how he went from where he was in BSG to his situation in Red Country...but you really don't need it; it's easy enough to guess what happened.

edited 9th Feb '13 7:41:34 AM by Phoenixflame

Hodor Cleric of Banjo from Westeros Since: Dec, 1969
Cleric of Banjo
#9: Feb 9th 2013 at 8:21:04 PM

Now that I'm further in to Red Country, I really think your analysis of Cosca is spot on. One thing interesting about his character in BSC is how he has this self-deprecation that is initially pretty funny, but actually becomes kind of tragic because its sort of like he would like to be a better person, but knows he isn't cut out for it, and he kind of wallows in his flaws (like Shivers' arc in BSC, it seems that Cosca eventually decided that if he was screwed, he was going to take others down with him). While we don't know exactly what happened between BSC and Red Country, I'd guess that it's pretty likely he was initially on very good terms with Monza, but fell into vice and it wouldn't surprise me if she told him not to return to Styria on pain of death.

edited 9th Feb '13 8:21:51 PM by Hodor

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Phoenixflame Since: Nov, 2012
#10: Feb 11th 2013 at 12:48:54 PM

[up][up] My thoughts exactly! (spoilers for late Red Country) —> You really see how far he's fallen when he's holding a bunch of kids hostage. It's not funny, it's just pathetic. And he's crying about just wanting to go back and do things right. Egads!

Shivers is an awesome character too. His arc in BSC was so bloody sad. Have you read The Heroes? It's fascinating to follow his character from Before They Are Hanged (his introduction book) through BSC through The Heroes (where he's basically The Hound from ASOIAF) to Red Country. Damn guy put me on one heck of an emotional roller-coaster.

I highly recommend you check out The First Law trilogy. It gives a ton of insight on Lamb's character. If you've read First Law, then that "saloon scene" (right before they meet Sweet) goes from tense to "holy crapcrapcrapcraaaaaaap!!!"

edited 11th Feb '13 12:49:26 PM by Phoenixflame

MrShine Since: Jun, 2011 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
#11: Feb 12th 2013 at 3:57:16 AM

In a way, i was hoping that Abercrombie would give more of a comeuppance towards fans of Logen that basically Draco in Leather Pants him (is there a trope for "this guy is pretty much a villain but because he acts like a 90's anti-hero lets overlook it?") But the circumstances in Red Country provide a decent closure to the character and also Shivers' character. I agree the character development (character devolution?) Shivers undergoes over the whole series is pretty cool.

I think Logen's popularity put Abercrombie in a tough spot. He is probably by far his most popular character so to please fans/publisher he needs to include him in more books. Fans want to see more of Logen being a crazy badass, but i think Abercrombie knew he cant in good conscience make Logen a Karma Houdini either, so perhaps Red Country was the best compromise of both worlds.

Kentok Earth-Pig Born from Upper Iest Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Earth-Pig Born
#12: May 14th 2013 at 11:00:09 AM

Figured that this would be a good place to ask. I've just finished BSC, first Abercrombie book I've read and it was a awesome read. The only real criticism I have is that it felt a little too fast paced.

So, should I go back and read the First Law Trilogy before progressing further? I heard BSC had some spoilers for the First Law but I didn't notice anything earthshattering. I suppose it's just the sort of thing that'll click if I read through it.

You can get what you want and still not be very happy.
Hodor Cleric of Banjo from Westeros Since: Dec, 1969
Cleric of Banjo
#13: May 14th 2013 at 9:27:37 PM

Good question. I pretty much did the same (BSC first and then Red Country- need to reread that one) and then tried to do The First Law but didn't get too far into it.

I think if you skip around through First Law, you can get the understanding you need for the others.

By the way, there's a first law comic that can be read for free or purchased (if you want more pages at once)- found here.

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Phoenixflame Since: Nov, 2012
#14: May 14th 2013 at 11:33:07 PM

[up][up]Welcome to the fold!

My personal choice would be The Blade Itself —> Before They Are Hanged —> Last Argument of Kings —> Best Served Cold —> The Heroes —> Red Country

I think it's really helpful to to read The First Law trilogy because it gives you the context for a lot of the magic and the ultimate manipulators. For example, why that bank in BSC appears to be more than just a bank, and who that slinky sorceress woman was. In addition, the trilogy really enhances Red Country because it introduces one of the major characters and a major side character. I can see liking the major characters without the trilogy, but to me it would lose a whole lot.

The Heroes (personally tied with Last Argument of Kings as my fav Abercrombie novels) is also better because it explains how certain characters got where they currently are and why they're fighting in the first place. Like, one reason a character in The Heroes is my favorite is because I HATED him so much in the trilogy. Seeing his POV and watching him develop was wonderful. Conversely, a character who came across as totally awesome and badass becomes an awesomely emo nutcase once you've gotten inside his head. So, personally, I recommend reading the trilogy, but it's your call. If you can tell, I'm just giddy that more people are reading Abercrombie.

It's also your introduction to Cosca, Shivers, Vitari, the Union king Monza almost kills, his bodyguard they tangle with, and the Grand Duke. For example (teensy Shivers spoilers for the trilogy): Shivers' arc in BSC is soooooo much more depressing if you have the context of the trilogy. He's virtually the only character who realizes that if he wants the fighting and vengeance to stop...he has to stop fighting. He makes a totally badass decision to choose a better life over getting revenge. And you can see in BSC where that gets him. After BSC, I friggin wanted to cuddle with Shivers and force-feed him SSR Is and Supernatural reruns.

edited 14th May '13 11:50:26 PM by Phoenixflame

Kentok Earth-Pig Born from Upper Iest Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Earth-Pig Born
#15: May 15th 2013 at 7:39:13 AM

[up]&[up][up]Thanks for the input, guys.

Think I'll try to snatch me a copy of The Blade Itself. Shivers' character arc in BSC was fantastic...and somewhat depressing at the same time, it'll be nice to read more about the big northern lug later on. Morveer was really a good example of a character I really liked at first (Snarky and Egocentric Poisoner? I'm in!) but pretty much despised later, though he was still entertaining to read about.

I definitely noticed a hell of a lot of things about the Bank of Valint & Balk being a lot more than they seem, that was pretty blatant I thought.

edited 15th May '13 7:40:17 AM by Kentok

You can get what you want and still not be very happy.
Kentok Earth-Pig Born from Upper Iest Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Earth-Pig Born
#16: May 15th 2013 at 3:24:44 PM

Sorry for the double post but I had to settle for The Heroes. Checked all of the bookstores around me and not a single one had any of the First Law books. Abercrombie did a great job of making BSC standalone, though I guess I can't really be the judge for that, so I expect to really enjoy this one on it's own merits. Mentally, I'll just try to think of the First Law as a 'prequel' of sorts.

I'll order a copy of it from a bookstore and just wait a week for it. If I read this one as fast as I read BSC then it should be ready by the time I get done.

You can get what you want and still not be very happy.
MrShine Since: Jun, 2011 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
#17: May 15th 2013 at 3:38:21 PM

That comic... I didn't picture Logen or Glokta as anything near so pretty. Jezal on the other hand I thought would be more pretty and more feminine (pre-character development) than he is shown there.

The main problem I can see with skipping around in the continuity in reading is not so much spoilers as it is missing out on Shivers' VERY slow character development.

Kentok Earth-Pig Born from Upper Iest Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Earth-Pig Born
#18: May 15th 2013 at 3:43:13 PM

[up] I got a pretty good sense of Shivers' development in Best Served Cold. From what I understand he's a fairly minor character in The First Law.

You can get what you want and still not be very happy.
Phoenixflame Since: Nov, 2012
#19: May 15th 2013 at 4:01:11 PM

Cooly wooly! It's tied as my favorite Abercrombie novel. If you liked reading Morveer's POV, you'll probably love Calder and Gorst. Calder was my favorite character (though his likability goes in an opposite trajectory of Morveer's), and Gorst is just a barrel of laughs.

You got me remembering one of my favorite lines from BSC. "Apologize to my fucking dice!"

Regarding Shivers — He's a side character in TFL, but he's quite interesting. He's in some ways a younger version of one of the main characters. Since most peoples' opinion of this main character starts to plummet (in a good way), the tension is "whuh-oh, is he following the same path?" His deciding to be a better man seems like one of the most hopeful spots in the book...then it gets subverted to hell in BSC...but to say that's his story is quite premature.

edited 15th May '13 4:06:05 PM by Phoenixflame

Kentok Earth-Pig Born from Upper Iest Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Earth-Pig Born
#20: May 28th 2013 at 9:15:55 AM

Well, The Heroes was a masterful book. The battle scene early on where the perspective constantly changes like a bloodier game of Tag is now one of my favorite sequences of all time. Gorst was a fascinating character to read about, while his character wasn't heroic by any means there was just something that made me want to root for the guy. I just had a hard time capturing his voice. I just settled for a Mike Tyson-esque thing. My main man Caul Shivers really shined in here even though he didn't have a POV. Infact, that made it better! You got to clearly see what the other characters think of him without getting that sympathetic point of view. The scene at the end with Bayaz and Calder was incredible. I had chills all over my body. As I'm reading The Blade Itself now, that book makes it a lot less obvious how shifty and fucking evil Bayaz is but it doesn't matter for me. Abercrombie seems to be setting up to subvert the whole Wise Old Mentor thing, more power to him.

I'm still early on in The Blade Itself. I can definitely see how much Abercrombie's writing has improved since the , it's not bad at all but it has the marks of debut novel written on it. I'm really liking Glotka and Logen (Glotka is Christoph Waltz in my head while Logen is pretty much Mickey Rourke) while Jezal needs to grow on me a little more. Reading BSC and The Heroes first has created an interesting effect for me. I was expecting Logen to be more of a mad-dog of man. His bloody and terrifying reputation floats all over The Heroes and in Shivers's thoughts in BSC. But the guy I'm currently reading about seems pretty cool so far (Him helping the apprentice guy on the road to Bayaz's and being so relieved when he's seen that he's recovered was a heartwarming moment for me. Something of a rarity in Abercrombie's world). I'm sure that'll change soon enough.

You can get what you want and still not be very happy.
Phoenixflame Since: Nov, 2012
#21: May 29th 2013 at 3:15:34 AM

Awwww, you're giving me warm fuzzies! I hope you don't mind if I respond to your thoughts.

The battle scene early on where the perspective constantly changes like a bloodier game of Tag is now one of my favorite sequences of all time.
Oh yeah, the kill chain! I love how viciously funny it can be, like the guy who's "he hadn't yet done anything he wanted to do in life...except join the army." It's also great for conveying the growing chaos of the battle, and shit going south just because a messenger randomly got shot.

If you're reading Blade Itself now, you'll notice how Jezal's drinking buddies like Jalenhorm have advanced in their military careers. evil grin

Gorst was a fascinating character to read about, while his character wasn't heroic by any means there was just something that made me want to root for the guy. I just had a hard time capturing his voice. I just settled for a Mike Tyson-esque thing.
Gorst has confidence issues partly because he has a high, piping little voice, so I was just picturing falsetto. Abercrombie is great at making characters I grow to loathe as people but still love as characters. I loved the reveal that Gorst's problems are his own damn fault. The three moments that stick out in my noggin are his borderline-erotic battle with Glama ("I love you!"); his crumbling resolve when the captain he's about to hit starts praising him; and his fight with Whirrun.
My main man Caul Shivers really shined in here even though he didn't have a POV. Infact, that made it better! You got to clearly see what the other characters think of him without getting that sympathetic point of view.
Hells yes! It made me so sad to see how bitter he'd become (rather Sandor Clegane-esque), but then uber happy when he saved Calder.
The scene at the end with Bayaz and Calder was incredible. I had chills all over my body. As I'm reading The Blade Itself now, that book makes it a lot less obvious how shifty and fucking evil Bayaz is but it doesn't matter for me. Abercrombie seems to be setting up to subvert the whole Wise Old Mentor thing, more power to him.
Erm, yes! My fav line of his was when Finree asked why he couldn't just use magic, and he snipped back, "It's easier just getting people to kill each other."

Calder is my favorite character in the book. I loved when his long monologue-memory about his father preaching mercy, only killing when necessary, and turning enemies into friends...ended with "kill him." What makes Calder frickin' awesome is that he is the only non-magical person so far to fuck directly with Bayaz and get away with it. Giving the crown to Scale and ruling from the background was both heartwarming and so friggin' smart.

I'm still early on in The Blade Itself. I can definitely see how much Abercrombie's writing has improved since the , it's not bad at all but it has the marks of debut novel written on it. I'm really liking Glotka and Logen (Glotka is Christoph Waltz in my head while Logen is pretty much Mickey Rourke) while Jezal needs to grow on me a little more. Reading BSC and The Heroes first has created an interesting effect for me. I was expecting Logen to be more of a mad-dog of man.
Yeah, JA's writing improves with every book. Glokta is my favorite character in all of Abercrombieland! I luff him to cranky little pieces. "For me, stairs are an adventure!" He's so delightfully bitter.

That's really interesting about your expectations of Logen. Hehe, I always pictured him as Ray Stevenson (Titus Pullo). Logen is fascinating; there's a point in the books, at least for me, when I started to get a sinking, cognitive dissonance feeling. Brilliant stuff.

I love Jezal but yeah, it took me awhile. He puts the "spoiled douchebag" in callow youth.

Hehe, you get to find out how Named Man Black Dow became King of the North. He's such a badass muthafucka...he's probably my favorite character who's never had a POV.

edited 29th May '13 11:16:17 AM by Phoenixflame

Hodor Cleric of Banjo from Westeros Since: Dec, 1969
Cleric of Banjo
#22: May 29th 2013 at 8:33:37 AM

I also think Abercrombie's writing style improved as the series progressed. That might be why it was a bit harder for me to get into The First Law after reading Best Served Cold and Red Country.

I'm meaning to read The First Law all the way through as well as The Heroes. One issue I had with the latter is that although it is the point, Gorst is really unlikable. Sort of like a composite of Jezal and Gloka POV's- the first is kind of "emo" and the second is kind of a sociopath; Gorst is an emo sociopath.

Really like Calder though.

Interesting to hear about Shivers role in the original trilogy. That makes his story a lot more tragic. I also have to admit to sort of skipping around in The Heroes, and with that in mind, it strikes me that Beck in that novel sort of avoids becoming Shivers (in the same way that Temple in Red Country avoids becoming Cosca).

By the way, something interesting I noticed in a reread of Best Served Cold. The scene where Monza and co. first meet up with Cosca is mirrored by the passage in Red Country where Temple definitively makes a Heel–Face Turn. Both men do this Bargain with Heaven kind of thing, and are answered by the female character.

Edit- One other thing. I was thinking about the twist with Bayaz in the original trilogy and to some degree, I'm not sure that in itself it is that original (at least not anymore), in that some straighter examples of Eccentric Mentor wizards (i.e. Dumbledore) are likewise morally ambiguous and manipulative. I guess that the twist with Bayaz isn't so much that he has this dark side, etc.- it is more that at the end of the day, he doesn't have good intentions at all.

edited 29th May '13 8:43:30 AM by Hodor

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hazzyhaz Slice and Dice Since: Oct, 2011
Slice and Dice
#23: Jun 2nd 2013 at 2:18:14 AM

Had nothing to do but reread Red Country recently. Pretty great stuff, though it is pretty sad how Lamb quickly takes to battle, when needed. Anyone else catch the Mayor's identity? The signs point to dan Eider, based on her aversion to the Union, and her acquaintance with Cosca and Dagoska, in general.

DrTentacles Cephalopod Lothario from Land of the Deep Ones Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Cephalopod Lothario
#24: Jun 2nd 2013 at 8:05:01 AM

Yup, that's the fan consensus.

Kentok Earth-Pig Born from Upper Iest Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Earth-Pig Born
#25: Jun 2nd 2013 at 1:01:28 PM

Man, it's kinda jarring to see how much more overtly 'magical' and supernatural the trilogy is compared to the other stuff. That scene in the beginning where Logen talks to the spirits was kind of 'wut' even with Shenkt's Bullet Time Kung Fu and Ishri in general in the other books. I expect to finish The Blade Itself later on today and then I got Before They Are Hanged waiting for me right here.

EDIT: Well, it was nice. I definitely know why Logen has that reputation now and Bayaz reenacting that one scene from Akira was rather unexpected. Probably my least favorite Abercrombie novel thus far since the large majority of it is just setting stuff up for the next two books. West and Glotka's little talk toward the end and Gorst being such a awesome sport about losing was some Manly Tears inducing moments for me.

edited 2nd Jun '13 4:47:49 PM by Kentok

You can get what you want and still not be very happy.

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