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Pichu-kun ...
...
Jun 9th 2019 at 6:53:27 AM

Pop Culture Urban Legends may need some cleaning. The page was split from Urban Legends with little cleaning up during TLP. It looks fine to me. though.

Edit:

ValuesDissonance.Anime And Manga's general section is messy. I've tried fixing a few examples in the past but it's still filled with third bullets.

Edited by Pichu-kun on Jun 9th 2019 at 8:01:23 AM

Jun 9th 2019 at 6:54:24 PM

Found this on Characters.Jo Jos Bizarre Adventure Steel Ball Run, but I'm not sure how to fix it.

  • Anti-Hero: Johnny's the most ambiguously heroic of the Joestars for a number of reasons.
    • Classical Anti-Hero: The neglect and contempt shown by his father, and the events that led up to him getting paralyzed, turned him into a bitter shadow of his former self, with deep-seated self-esteem issues. In fact, the reason he seeks to acquire the Corpse Parts is so that a "useless person" like him could have a purpose for living.
    • Unscrupulous Hero: On top of that, Johnny is not really heroic. He just wanted the Corpse and is not particularly nice. To have the Corpse he'll do everything even if he must kill someone. He even proposed to Gyro to shoot a child with a serious face. He does mellow down over the course of the story, but still.
    • This is deconstructed when he admits that in a way, his goals are pettier than Valentine's well-intentioned but insane scheme, causing him to nearly side with the Big Bad. The only reason he doesn't do so is because he's smart enough to test if Valentine was going to double cross him, and not because he had any sudden moral objections.

Jun 9th 2019 at 7:14:58 PM

Hm. Well, we're not allowed to put tropes under each other like that. So my vote would be:

  • Anti-Hero: Johnny's the most ambiguously heroic of the Joestars for a number of reasons. This is deconstructed when he admits that in a way, his goals are pettier than Valentine's well-intentioned but insane scheme, causing him to nearly side with the Big Bad. The only reason he doesn't do so is because he's smart enough to test if Valentine was going to double cross him, and not because he had any sudden moral objections.
  • Classical Anti-Hero: The neglect and contempt shown by his father, and the events that led up to him getting paralyzed, turned him into a bitter shadow of his former self, with deep-seated self-esteem issues. In fact, the reason he seeks to acquire the Corpse Parts is so that a "useless person" like him could have a purpose for living.
  • Unscrupulous Hero: On top of that, Johnny is not really heroic. He just wanted the Corpse and is not particularly nice. To have the Corpse he'll do everything even if he must kill someone. He even proposed to Gyro to shoot a child with a serious face. He does mellow down over the course of the story, but still.

And then have the individual examples alphabetized normally.

Jun 9th 2019 at 7:41:10 PM

Anti-Hero turns into a Zero-Context Example with the other bullet points split off from it, and Unscrupulous Hero starts with "On top of that" as it's referencing the bullet point above it (though I guess that's easy to fix, just remove that part).

Well, if I understand my trope hierarchy correctly, Classical Anti-Hero and Unscrupulous Hero are Sub Tropes of Anti-Hero, so that trope doesn't need to be listed. So I see how I can fix this now.

Edited by Zuxtron on Jun 9th 2019 at 10:41:32 AM

Jun 11th 2019 at 12:18:47 PM

Music.Johann Sebastian Bach has this, which seems excessive to mention the same thing multiple times in a row.

Jul 1st 2019 at 11:42:52 AM

How should this from The Magic School Bus be fixed?

  • Captain Obvious: Dorothy Ann is a frequent source of these, partially due to the incredibly obvious "research", such as that squirrels and birds live in trees.
    • "According to my research, after chewing comes swallowing." Really, Dorothy Ann? Haven't you ever eaten food before?

Jul 1st 2019 at 12:05:00 PM

  • Captain Obvious: Dorothy Ann is a frequent source of these, partially due to the incredibly obvious "research", such as that squirrels and birds live in trees and that after chewing comes swallowing.

WarJay77 Simba is tired from Upstate New York Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Simba is tired
Jul 1st 2019 at 12:06:07 PM

[up] That could work; it could also be made a quote, such as:

  • Captain Obvious: Dorothy Ann is a frequent source of these, partially due to the incredibly obvious "research", such as that squirrels and birds live in trees.
    "According to my research, after chewing comes swallowing."

Female troper who likes Pokemon, ARGs, Writing, and more. / Links: Sandbox.Zero Context Example Thread - Sandbox.Roleplay Cleanup Thread
Jul 2nd 2019 at 9:34:16 PM

How to do this? From Accent Depundent:

  • Alice's Adventures in Wonderland:
    • The Mock Turtle's line, "We called him 'Tortoise' because he taught us!" makes a lot more sense when said with an English accent than with an American one (unless one speaks an r-dropping American accent).
      • Indeed, a Brooklyn accent would achieve the same effect (as demonstrated by at least one community radio theater adaptation.)

crazysamaritan Could we just... not have Death anymore? from Lupin III
Could we just... not have Death anymore?
Jul 2nd 2019 at 11:08:22 PM

  • Lewis Carroll:
    • Alice's Adventures in Wonderland: The Mock Turtle's line, "We called him 'Tortoise' because he taught us!". With the right accent, "tortoise" is pronounced "to't-us". This pronunciation is common for English accents and r-dropping American accents, such as a Brooklyn accent (as demonstrated by at least one community radio theater adaptation).
    • Through the Looking-Glass contains an orthographical example: while American readers could easily guess that Hatta is an Expy of the Hatter, they would be far more likely to pronounce the G in "Haigha" than a British reader, potentially missing the fact that he is a stand-in for the Hare entirely if they don't see the illustrations. Some may also interpret the letter combination "ai" as being pronounced "i", rather than "ay", so a speaker of a non-rhotic accent might think the word is a homonym of "higher" rather than "hare".

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Pichu-kun ...
...
Jul 9th 2019 at 7:55:51 AM

Is this proper indentation?

wingedcatgirl it's her... the real winged cat girl... from Catgirl Heaven, presumably Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
it's her... the real winged cat girl...
Jul 9th 2019 at 8:23:11 AM

The post-split "Harvest Moon" games are part of a different series and should be split off entirely. I think?

🐱 Name: Sylvi 🐱 Pronouns: it/they/she 🐱
XFllo Witch from Where foxes bid people good night... Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
Witch
Jul 10th 2019 at 2:22:12 AM

[up][up] No, there would have to be more examples from the same work. Like this:

  • Harvest Moon:
    • Story of Seasons:
      • Example A.
      • Example B.
    • Harvest Moon (Natsume)
      • Example A.
      • Example B.
      • Example C.

Yours would be like this:

  • Harvest Moon:
    • Story of Seasons: Example.
    • Harvest Moon (Natsume): Example.


Because you want to group it together, I assume Story of Seasons and Harvest Moon (Natsume) belong to the Harvest Moon franchise.

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wingedcatgirl it's her... the real winged cat girl... from Catgirl Heaven, presumably Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
it's her... the real winged cat girl...
Jul 10th 2019 at 5:30:55 AM

It's... complicated. Story of Seasons is the new localized name for what was originally localized by Natsume as Harvest Moon, a name which they still own the rights to, but the original creators have decided to localize in-house and Natsume has used the name to make their own farming sim.

🐱 Name: Sylvi 🐱 Pronouns: it/they/she 🐱
Pichu-kun ...
...
Jul 10th 2019 at 7:10:03 AM

[up] Harvest Moon fan sites cover both series, so they're unofficially in the same franchise even if neither company acknowledges it.

XFllo Witch from Where foxes bid people good night... Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
Witch
Jul 10th 2019 at 8:59:04 AM

[up][up] Oof, my head hurts. I honestly don't know. I probably lean towards your solution not to group it together and list the works separately.

[up] Fan sites don't matter as much as official releases methinks. It could be useful to hear more input, for example on ATT.


[down] Ok.

Edited by XFllo on Jul 10th 2019 at 9:38:50 PM

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Pichu-kun ...
...
Jul 10th 2019 at 9:15:23 AM

[up] I've already brought it up in ATT. The consensus was to go with what fans use: they're both Harvest Moon series.

dsneybuf Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
Jul 12th 2019 at 4:02:23 AM

Awesome.Batista needs fixing on the last two entries:

  • Wrestlers making a foray into acting can have mixed results at best, but Batista is part of the Marvel Cinematic Universe AND a James Bond villain. If that doesn't qualify as awesome…
  • His utterly fearless defense of James Gunn after he was unceremoniously fired due to years-old Tweets that everyone knows Disney already knew about when they hired him. To put this in full context, he has perhaps the lowest acting profile of the whole cast and clearly knows full well he's putting his whole career at risk to do this, but he's willing to take that risk to stand up for his own moral standards and in defense of who he sees as a good man who doesn't deserve what he got.
    • It's worth remembering that Bautista busted his ass getting the role of Drax. Despite that, after Gunn's firing, he said outright that if he wasn't contractually obliged to star in more movies as the character, he would have walked away from the MCU without a second thought.
      • Just to make it sweeter, Bautista and the rest of the Guardians cast were vindicated when Gunn was rehired in early 2019.

Pichu-kun ...
...
Jul 12th 2019 at 5:47:20 PM

I split the Sonic Alternative Character Interpretation examples onto their own page because they were clogging up the Video Game page, but these Eggman examples confuse me. I can't figure out how to fix the indentation.

  • Doctor Ivo "Eggman" Robotnik invokes a lot of this. One interpretation, though, is that the character isn't even a villain. He wants to make the world a better place, and has the intelligence to create the inventions that can help the world, and make it a truly utopian society. It's just that before he can get his plans into action Sonic always interferes. Since Sonic's too impatient to let Robotnik explain, Sonic always assumes Robotnik's short term villainy is the main goal, and stops Robotnik before the good in his plans an be completed. Sure, Robotnik's attempts to take control of the world aren't exactly the normal way to bring about positive changes, but he understands PR, and that his continual early defeats against Sonic means that if he wants to better the world, then he has to do it by force, and that includes techniques such as holding it hostage. Robotnik might then be a villain for how he will take over the world, but once he gets in power he's got his master plan to sort everything out. He's just too much of an egotist to merely explain his proposals to current world leaders, and wants all the glory for himself.
    • Or maybe he fears that they would disregard his ideas, and thinks he has to force his ideas upon the world in order to get people to accept them.
    • It seems that Eggman's main goal is to create his "Eggman Land," an over-the-top Egopolis amusement park that he has actually succeeded in building in a few games. This suggests that all he really wants is a land of his own to command, it doesn't have to be the whole world. Even though all he's commanding is a legion of obedient robots. However, he knows that to successfully pull this off, he needs the Chaos Emeralds, which he can only get by force.
    • Consider Eggman's many mechas. They're bright and carnival-based. Eggman may, deep down, be a little child. Taking over the world is like playing with his toys. And Sonic? He may be the closest thing Eggman has to a genuine friend.
    • The epilogue of Sonic Adventure 2, wherein Eggman expresses his admiration for Gerald Robotnik and states he wanted to become a great scientist because of what his grandfather accomplished, further implies that he turned to villainy at least partially out of a desire to right the injustices that led to Gerald's wrongful death at the hands of the world government, with Motive Decay possibly seeping in over time.

Crossover-Enthusiast F E A R from somewhere doing something Relationship Status: Chocolate!
F E A R
Aug 11th 2019 at 2:02:49 AM

Reposting from the ATT thread I made:

While looking for something else, I stumbled upon Theatre.Charlie And The Chocolate Factory, The Sun And Moon Are Harsh Mistresses, and Sombra's Game, which all have bad cases where a lot of tropes are subulleted on another (on Death by Adaptation for the former and Amusing Injuries for the other two). It's a lot of splitting, and I'm not in place where I can clean them.

Edited by Crossover-Enthusiast on Aug 11th 2019 at 5:03:33 AM

I don't know what this thing is, and that terrifies me!
naturalironist from The Information Superhighway Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Oct 3rd 2019 at 9:22:16 AM

This example from The Bone Clocks has one entry for the trope, then an alternative theory for the trope which has been Jossed by the creator as a second-level bullet. I would like to move the second-level entry to WMG but I'm not sure what to do in general when two alternate theories are offered for the same trope entry:

  • Most Writers Are Writers: Celebrated novelist Crispin Hershey is a major character who bears more than a passing resemblance to the author. Taken to the next level when Hershey's latest book, Echo Never Dies, itself features a writer protagonist (in fact, the story seems to be much like The Bone Clocks); Echo is unfavorably compared to Hershey's best-known work, an older novel that has a mirrored structure suspiciously similar to Mitchell's own bestseller Cloud Atlas.
    • Hershey more closely resembles Martin Amis:
      • Both are literary stylists who write dark satires about 'contemporary Londoners whose upper-middle-class lives have their organs ripped out by controversy or scandal' that gain notoriety - Amis made his name with Dead Babies, whereas Hershey had Desiccated Embryos.
      • Both have a tumultuous relationship with their famous fathers (although Hershey's father was a film director rather than the novelist Sir Kingsley Amis).
      • Both have literary agents with an eye for good business deals. Compare Hal "the Hyena" to Andrew "the Jackal" Wylie.
      • Both suffered a loss in critical esteem after a scathing review from a younger Cambridge-educated writer he knew personally - Amis's Yellow Dog got infamously savaged in print by Tibor Fischer.
      • Mitchell, curiously, denies this, claiming Hershey really is a more monstrous version of himself.

"It's just a show; I should really just relax"
WarJay77 Simba is tired from Upstate New York Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Simba is tired
Oct 7th 2019 at 10:46:56 PM

[up] Can't both theories just be moved to WMG?


Anyway, Allegedly Free Game has a lot of nattery and improperly indented examples, and I'm not sure how to fix some of them.

Female troper who likes Pokemon, ARGs, Writing, and more. / Links: Sandbox.Zero Context Example Thread - Sandbox.Roleplay Cleanup Thread
Oct 11th 2019 at 7:34:19 AM

I wasn't sure where to bring this up, so I thought I'd try this thread. This Alternative Character Interpretation entry on Fire Emblem: Three Houses not only goes into third-bullets, but each third-bullet is huge:

  • Alternative Character Interpretation:
    • Just how much of a shadow ruler is Rhea?
      • On one hand, it can be argued the game gives ample evidence that Rhea, while very influential, didn't actually have that amount of power. In every route her capture or exile from the monastery leads to a large number of Fodlan's nobles turning against her and siding with Edelgard, leaving Ferdinand disturbed and questioning how loyal they ever really were if their allegiance can be changed so easily (and not necessarily because said nobles agree with Edelgard, but more for pure self interest). Seteth expresses that "they" (i.e. Rhea and others who run the monastery) wish to not discriminate between social classes, but nonetheless some in the nobility demand that there be some separation between noble and commoner in the dorms at least and the church thus has to compromise. When Duscur survivors cause a rebellion the church gives permission for Byleth's class to intervene, but cannot grant them authority to actually interfere with the Kingdom soldiers directly (Dimitri notes the church should still be thanked for what they did allow the Blue Lions to do). The church teaches against a number of abuses enabled by the various versions of the Crest system, but doesn't seem able to force changes on local laws or customs, only express their opposition. As officially a neutral power, Rhea can easily be seen as having to tread a fine line when it came to exercising authority and influence. Indeed, excessive interference in Empire affairs is noted to cause a schism between them and the church that lasts many years.
      • On the other hand, the title of Archbishop is quite powerful within Fodlan along with the church, providing military support to nations that require it, is able to enforce isolationism in Fodlan through preaching church tenets, and distorting history and getting one nation in the past to accept it as fact, the religious significance of the crests and relics is an important tactic of the Church to keep order, Lorenz mentions that it is required for nobility to be religious, it's clear that the Church does have a certain influence over the nobility and a vested interest in ensuring commoners believe in the nobility and the power of the crests and relics, as evidenced by Rhea's conversation with Byleth after defeating Miklan. Rhea and the Church has had a hand in founding both the Empire and Kingdom, with the latter only getting support from the church by naming the Church of Seiros as the major religion, not to mention that the crowning of a new Emperor in Adrestia is required to have the presence (and thus implied support) of the Archbishop which gives Rhea a significant amount of power over Fodlan, add in the fact that she is a long-lived dragon, gives her policies more continuity than any other human leader. There is also the matter of the influence of the religion and its tenets over the people of Fodlan, which Jeralt notes. Lastly, before the time-skip, Rhea refers to Byleth accepting the rank and sacred duties of Archbishop as leading the people of Fodlan, suggesting that Rhea does see the role of Archbishop as the true leader of Fodlan. On the Azure Moon and Verdant Wind paths, the Archbishop is treated as an equal to King Dimitri or the new Archbishop is ignored entirely due to Byleth becoming the ruler of the United Kingdom instead of Archbishop, while on the Silver Snow path, Byleth becoming Archbishop is the same as becoming God-King of all of Fodlan, having the power and crests of Sothis and Seiros, which makes Byleth the most politically powerful individual on the continent thanks to the mentality from the crest system the church preaches.
      • Each of the factions having some form of instability doesn't help either interpretation. The Central Church is the only major power in Fodlan with stability and a competent ruler in Rhea and is constantly hounded by threats seeking to create chaos for the Central Church; Adrestia's Emperor was reduced to a pawn of corrupt nobles after his attempt to make his power absolute and incompetence in handling Hyrm led to the Insurrection of the Seven, the Kingdom had a skirt chasing fool as regent after the Tragedy of Duscur killed the king, the Western Church is constantly trying to undermine the Central Church due to twisting Seiros teachings to suit their fanaticism, the Eastern Church cows to the Alliance and the Central Church to gain power, and their attempts to suck up to the Alliance nobility puts them under their thumb instead, and the Alliance itself has its own issues with squabbling nobles. Even the military of the Church of Seiros, the Knights of Seiros, are noted to be a much smaller military force than any of the other factions, even being unable to face a decent sized army from the empire directly without the aid of nearby nobles, but at the same time are heavily skilled due to having a number of secrets hidden from the populace (the most trusted of the knights having the Crest of Seiros).

It really makes the whole thing reads like an argument between tropers writing dissertations on why their interpretation is the correct one.

XFllo Witch from Where foxes bid people good night... Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
Witch
Oct 11th 2019 at 11:27:40 AM

[up] That's such a huge Wall of Text. We need a summarising contest like in Monty Python's Flying Circus.

It needs trimming and the indentation should be fixed. Also, no linking words. First, second, then, on the other hand etc. — examples are re-organised all the time. Each entry should stand on its own.

Edited by XFllo on Oct 11th 2019 at 8:28:06 PM

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