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Jan 22nd 2013 at 10:48:54 AM

I've heard it said that violations of Example Indentation In Trope Lists is a major problem. Fixing it is certainly a long-term project, but something has to be done about it.

I am happy to say that I have taken steps to address this problem. Just check out the pages Death Of The Family, Scandal, Revolution, Person of Interest, The Casual Vacancy, In Death, Septerra Core, X Wing Vs Tie Fighter, Fear Effect, Dark Forces Saga and Oni to see nicely indented examples.

I sent private messages to the following tropers to let them know about indenting examples:

  1. 7grayjay7, 84788484
  2. Akriloth2160, Ashenphoenix, Aspie, Austin, azmod
  3. Baby M, Bissek, blahing, bobfrank, Bronzethumb
  4. Cassandra Leo, claystripe6514, cocainesocialism, C Queen C 17, Crimson Zephyr, crowmagnon
  5. damus2300, dantesque17, darkclaw, Dark Literati, Dark Nemesis, Dark Paladin X, dbz77, Del Shift B, djfrog2001, Dragonmouth, Drayco90, dstorrs, Duncanthrax
  6. earthgirl, Eccent Rick, Ereiam
  7. Fireblood, flambeau, Folamh3
  8. Gahmah Raan, Gamer From Jump, Gaon, Gatordragon24
  9. hellodoom
  10. Ichigo Montoya, isoycrazy
  11. James Shade, jeffhibberd13, Jonn, J Sven
  12. Kadorhal, Kentucky Troper 1990
  13. lissathecocoa, Lollipopfop, Lord Ernie, Lorialet, Lostiesgirl
  14. Maka4, Match25, Mian Pi, Micah, Mirror Noir, mnordhoff, Moranion, mrarjasrs, msq, Munchable, murlough23
  15. nielas, Nightway, Non Decimus
  16. Occasional Exister, occono, Odon, Ominae
  17. phoenixking, pikaika217, pittsburghmuggle
  18. Quantum Reality
  19. Raust BD, Ravenshade1, rgeykhman, Ridderres, Rincevent, ronulanus, Rosencrantz14, Round Brainy Specs
  20. s4karuna, samroz83, Sandy87, Sarah1281, shaknbac0n, Shaoken, Snarf, So Whack, spongeboy1985, Star Sword, starwolf
  21. Tera Chimera, theenglishman, the_farewell_party, thelinguist, toonman, tricksterson, TS Basilisk, Tyk5919
  22. Virodhi, voodoochild, VVK
  23. wierdlurker, WWRU
  24. xeroscythe
  25. York
  26. Zims Most Loyal Servant, zombielovescore

It's a long list, and I'm happy to say that some of them have learned their lesson. Also, I want to thank troacctid for letting me know about my mistakes with indenting examples and inspiring me to do all this!

edited 8th Feb '13 5:35:44 PM by TiggersAreGreat

Oh, Equestria, we stand on guard for thee!
Jan 22nd 2013 at 11:40:02 AM

Sweet! We can use all the help on this we can get. Thanks for making the effort!

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
Telcontar In uffish thought from England
In uffish thought
Jan 22nd 2013 at 11:55:53 AM

Thanks for doing this! For other tropers who want a quick PM to send, here's one from Sandbox.Natterfy Button Messages Idea.

The <page> edit you made on <time stamp> is indented incorrectly. We try to leave similar stuff to same bullet levels and to avoid having lone subbullets or below third-level bullets. Please feel free to merge or split stuff between various bullets according to How To Use Bullet Points and to use paragraph breaks whenever a Wall of Text turns up. Thanks for helping us keep the wiki cool.

That was the amazing part. Things just keep going.
SeptimusHeap from Bern, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Jan 22nd 2013 at 12:06:31 PM

During winter 2012, I did often work on this, but then I got sucked into TRS.

Prolly time to reastart the bullet point cleaning.

Jan 22nd 2013 at 12:08:08 PM

I try to do two pages day. More than that feels like a full time job.

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
lu127 Paper Master from 空蝉丸
Jan 22nd 2013 at 12:11:23 PM

Here's the standardized PM I use:

Hello. Your edit on [[Page Name]] contains incorrect Example Indentation.

When there is a single example from a show we follow this format:

  • Show name: Example.

If however, there is more than one example in a single show, the format goes like this:

  • Show name:
    • Example a.
    • Example b.
    • Example c.

Remember that a triple star is most likely unneeded.

Please remember that...

  • Show name: Example a.
    • Example b.

....is incorrect and should not be used.

Happy troping!

Since the most common mistake is the last point, I thought beneficial to include it.

troacctid "." from California
Jan 22nd 2013 at 8:37:04 PM

It's an important issue for the Inbound Watch too. One of the most useful cleanups you can do is fixing up stuff like this on the pages that are getting the heaviest traffic of the day.

There should probably be a thread for Inbound Watch.

edited 22nd Jan '13 8:37:53 PM by troacctid

Rhymes with "Protracted."
Nohbody "In distress", my ass. from Somewhere in Dixie Relationship Status: Mu
"In distress", my ass.
Jan 23rd 2013 at 6:51:04 AM

Outside of the pages I specifically watch, haven't gone out of my way to fix it, but when I see it while doing something else (namespacing, primarily... and with the originally umpteen hundred wrong wicks for Babylon 5, that covered a lot of territory tongue ) I clean it up as best I can, at least for examples where I'm not totally lost as to how to make it work (or at least be less-wrong than before). Unfortunately, where I fall short the most is in anime/manga sections, and given the demographics of TVT that covers a metric fuckton of territory.

edited 23rd Jan '13 6:51:29 AM by Nohbody

All your safe space are belong to Trump
AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Relationship Status: In season
No, the other one.
Jan 23rd 2013 at 6:56:51 AM

Do you really need to know the works if you're fixing indentations, though? Usually I find it works to just add an asterisk to the first one, and drag the name of the series one line up with a single asterisk, and you're basically done for most of the cases. For more nested ones, it's usually enough to just read what the example is saying, and it's often more about Repair Dont Respond than improper indentation, though they amount to sort of the same in the end. Badly written examples.

Check out my fanfiction!
Nohbody "In distress", my ass. from Somewhere in Dixie Relationship Status: Mu
"In distress", my ass.
Jan 23rd 2013 at 7:10:53 AM

A lot of it is, yes, simply putting the work title as the first level, then the entries as seconds (or rarely, thirds).

However, some of the ones I've come across do require some knowledge of the work to determine what's important to the example, and what's crap (primarily Justifying Edit and Conversation In The Main Page, as I recall). Unfortunately, I can't remember specific examples to point to, and with the mass namespacing I've been doing looking through my edit history requires a lot of time that I honestly can't be assed to spend. tongue

All your safe space are belong to Trump
AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Relationship Status: In season
No, the other one.
Jan 23rd 2013 at 12:10:46 PM

For those things, first I consider if the justification argues against the example, in which case I may reach the conclusion that the example is arguable, which makes it a non-example. Or I remove or rewrite the justification if there still is an example even with that in mind.

Plain natter goes away, unless it actually adds something to the example, and is relevant for the trope. Then I just tag the sentence onto the same paragraph if it fits well enough. But most of the time it's not relevant to the trope in question, even if it's quite interesting. But we're not QI.

Check out my fanfiction!
Xtifr World's Toughest Milkman Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
World's Toughest Milkman
Jan 23rd 2013 at 1:25:43 PM

I agree with Another Duck that it's usually pretty easy to fix, but I agree with Nohbody that there are cases where the solution isn't obvious without further info. I saw one yesterday where I had absolutely no idea if the secondary bullet was a justifying edit/Take That!, or a legitimate second example about someone mentioned in the first example. I decided it was probably the latter, but I'm still not sure I made the right decision.

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.
SeptimusHeap from Bern, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Jan 23rd 2013 at 1:26:43 PM

Eh, I go for the line on Word Cruft: If it contradicts the previous entry, delete both. If it's a Justifying Edit, I remove just the edit.

Xtifr World's Toughest Milkman Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
World's Toughest Milkman
Jan 23rd 2013 at 1:36:58 PM

[up]This one was about a diss, and the second example was issued against the person who issued the first, and I really wasn't sure if the people who issued the second diss were the right kind of people for that particular type of diss, since I had no familiarity with the work.

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.
Feb 3rd 2013 at 7:22:21 AM

Hey, I got a question, and it goes like this: on the page Death Of The Family, there's this one trope listed and it's indented like this:

  • Brainwashed and Crazy: Averted. Damian found himself fighting 'Batman' and having to fight him, only for it to be revealed to be an imposter.
    • "Batman" is actually a martial arts master that owned his own dojo that Joker brainwashed and dressed up as Batman.

So I tried changing the indentation to this:

  • Trope:
    • A
    • B

Also, I sent a private message to Shaoken about example indentation, but he reverted it back to the way he had it, claiming that I made a mistake and that "indentation when there are multiple examples" is used.

What's the best way to resolve the indentation of this trope?

edited 3rd Feb '13 7:22:41 AM by TiggersAreGreat

Oh, Equestria, we stand on guard for thee!
lu127 Paper Master from 空蝉丸
Feb 3rd 2013 at 7:41:05 AM

It doesn't look to be two separate examples, just one that is rather complicated. It also doesn't look like an aversion. It sounds like a subversion: we were tricked into thinking we have a Brainwashed and Crazy Batman but it was then revealed to be an impostor.

SeptimusHeap from Bern, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Feb 3rd 2013 at 7:43:32 AM

The "Actually" makes it look like a Justifying Edit.

AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Relationship Status: In season
No, the other one.
Feb 3rd 2013 at 9:41:16 AM

I don't even see how the "actually" line is relevant for the trope. And yes, one of the rare cases of Actually A Subversion.

Check out my fanfiction!
troacctid "." from California
Feb 3rd 2013 at 4:16:09 PM

The indentation you changed it to is the correct one for multiple examples, so Shaoken in wrong.

This case appears to be a Repair Dont Respond issue, though, with one example and a misformatted "elaboration" on it. In cases like these you can fold the second line into the first one and do away with the second level of indentation completely. (Or, sometimes, if the "elaboration" doesn't really add anything, you can just delete it. But I'd go with the consolidation here.)

Rhymes with "Protracted."
Feb 3rd 2013 at 5:43:29 PM

It was one thought. No indentation at all was needed. For these cases, ignore the fact that there are two or more authors separated by time who have added text and apply the logic you would use to break your own writing into paragraphs or to consolidate them.

edited 3rd Feb '13 5:44:31 PM by FastEddie

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
Feb 4th 2013 at 1:24:14 PM

[up] Well, okay. That's good to know. smile

There's this one type of example that's been nagging at me. Here's a trope from Republic Of Doyle:

—> Jake: There's me, Christian, and Kathleen. It's gonna be hard to divide 50 bucks between tree people. —> Malachy: How many times've I got to tell you; trees go in the garden. One, two, three.

When a trope has quoted dialogue with it, how should it be indented? It's just that there's nothing in Example Indentation In Trope Lists explaining how that should be handled! sad

Oh, Equestria, we stand on guard for thee!
SeptimusHeap from Bern, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Feb 4th 2013 at 1:28:25 PM

Quotes aren't indented, they have their own markup (the one in your post) that doesn't work in the forums.

Feb 11th 2013 at 4:37:42 AM

Here's another thing I've noticed across many pages. This instance is from the Cutie Mark Crusaders page of My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic:

I've noticed how some tropes get indented like this, supposedly to show a connection. What should be done with those ones? I don't think that was covered in Example Indentation In Trope Lists.

Oh, Equestria, we stand on guard for thee!
SeptimusHeap from Bern, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Feb 11th 2013 at 4:40:56 AM

Remove the subbullet. Alphabetical listing is always preferred, since everybody does understand it and not everybody understands this sorting.

Nohbody "In distress", my ass. from Somewhere in Dixie Relationship Status: Mu
"In distress", my ass.
Feb 11th 2013 at 4:44:57 AM

Two separate trope entries. "The Reason You Suck" Speech should be on its own line, with the Big Sister Worship entry adding something like ", although her worship of Rarity isn't absolute all of the time." (and the addition should not include anything about "see "The Reason You Suck" Speech", as that's bad troping as well).

All your safe space are belong to Trump

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