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The philosophy thread general discussion

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Elfive (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#276: Apr 18th 2013 at 8:13:27 AM

When everyone is Ubermench, no-one is Ubermench.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#277: Apr 18th 2013 at 8:21:06 AM

[up]You're missing an S there. But there is a way for everyone to be Ubermensch: in the inside of their own heads.

[up][up]Validity? By what standard? What are the criteria to validate or invalidate a moral system? What does it even mean, for a moral system to be valid?

And might does not make right; rightness is up to the subjective judgment of every sentient being, and they might disagree. Neither does right make might; it's not because you comply with your own moral code (or anyone else's) that you're guaranteed to have it your way.

However, right needs might; if you want to impose your morality on the world, you had better have the assets and leverage to back it up, and that includes force.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Icarael is All Elite from The Taguig Sprawl Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
is All Elite
#278: Apr 18th 2013 at 8:32:14 AM

[up] Then what is the use of holding morality if it does not affect anything? If nothing is right or wrong, then why do societies have laws?

How does one function in a world where all is void?

edited 18th Apr '13 8:33:20 AM by Icarael

"Stealing is a crime and drugs is a crime too BUT if you steal drugs the two crimes cancel out and it’s like basically doing a good."
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#279: Apr 18th 2013 at 8:36:14 AM

Lsws are a matter of practicality. They're usually designed to overlap with most people's moralities at the same time, but it need not be so. Laws exist to make the world predictable: they ensure that when you cross a street under a green light, you can expect that no car will slam you from the side, that when you lend money to someone you will get it back, and that when you buy a house you can sell it back, and live there in the mean time.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Matues Since: Sep, 2011
#280: Apr 18th 2013 at 8:40:39 AM

[up][up]

Because it's hard to be king when everyone's murdering each other.

Can't collect your damned taxes because everyone's dead.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#281: Apr 18th 2013 at 8:41:58 AM

[up][up]As for your second point, just be The Anti-Nihilist. It's easy, and it feels good.

[up]Can't get anything done, either. Dead people are kinda useless. Burying them is an expense, and leaving them unburied is a recipe for epidemics.

edited 18th Apr '13 8:43:22 AM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Icarael is All Elite from The Taguig Sprawl Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
is All Elite
#282: Apr 18th 2013 at 8:42:31 AM

[up] I was The Anti-Nihilist... until I found out it makes more sense to try and unmake everything.

Why shouldn't I? It's just about as good a goal as trying to live life to the fullest.

edited 18th Apr '13 8:43:12 AM by Icarael

"Stealing is a crime and drugs is a crime too BUT if you steal drugs the two crimes cancel out and it’s like basically doing a good."
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#283: Apr 18th 2013 at 8:45:46 AM

Well, you're welcome to try, but don't expect others not to attempt to stop you when they find out.[lol]

More importantly, what's the point of trying to unravel everything? Are you masochistic or something? If you don't justify this properly, people will be left wondering "If you hate the world so much, why don't you kill yourself?"

Why not? To that I ask, why yes? And by what standard do you judge "good"? What is it that makes one "about as good" as the other in your eyes?

edited 18th Apr '13 8:46:55 AM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Icarael is All Elite from The Taguig Sprawl Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
is All Elite
#284: Apr 18th 2013 at 8:47:42 AM

[up] I dunno, it's just this discussion led me to the same conclusion reached by those mages in Mage: The Awakening who want to have the world eaten by the Abyss.

And besides, if society is one big ball of lies, then the only truth is chaos. And that's one of the things I value: truth. So if the truth is that there is no truth and 2+2 may as well equal 8, then all claims are equally valid. And so the serial killer is as "good" as the dedicated paramedic.

Of course, the original conclusion I held was that if there is no objective truth, then what you hold to be the truth matters all the more. But the other one just seemed more sensible.

edited 18th Apr '13 9:01:10 AM by Icarael

"Stealing is a crime and drugs is a crime too BUT if you steal drugs the two crimes cancel out and it’s like basically doing a good."
DrTentacles Cephalopod Lothario from Land of the Deep Ones Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Cephalopod Lothario
#285: Apr 18th 2013 at 9:01:09 AM

That's an interesting view, in a "Who ran over your dog recently?" sort of way.

edited 18th Apr '13 9:01:25 AM by DrTentacles

Icarael is All Elite from The Taguig Sprawl Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
is All Elite
#286: Apr 18th 2013 at 9:01:31 AM

[up] Yeah, but it's neither right nor wrong.

"Stealing is a crime and drugs is a crime too BUT if you steal drugs the two crimes cancel out and it’s like basically doing a good."
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#287: Apr 18th 2013 at 9:02:02 AM

You're extrapolating from the lack of universally compelling arguments in ethics to mathematics?[lol][lol][lol] And change isn't the same as chaos.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
DrTentacles Cephalopod Lothario from Land of the Deep Ones Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Cephalopod Lothario
#288: Apr 18th 2013 at 9:03:06 AM

Yes, the majority of humanity would consider it wrong and harmful, so it could be said to be wrong and harmful to society as much as we can say anything to be wrong and harmful.

Elfive (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#289: Apr 18th 2013 at 9:03:51 AM

Not lies. Convenient interpersonal conventions. As far as morality goes, "right" and "wrong" may be meaningless, but "functional" and "useless" are still very much a thing.

Icarael is All Elite from The Taguig Sprawl Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
is All Elite
#290: Apr 18th 2013 at 9:06:02 AM

[up][up] Again, Appeal to Popularity. Just because so many people say it's harmful doesn't make it so.

[up] So the question is not one of "right" and "wrong", but rather what works.

Then why do we even pretend to consider other ethical systems than pragmatism?

edited 18th Apr '13 9:07:20 AM by Icarael

"Stealing is a crime and drugs is a crime too BUT if you steal drugs the two crimes cancel out and it’s like basically doing a good."
Elfive (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#291: Apr 18th 2013 at 9:07:19 AM

Morality only exists in a social framework. In this case, Appeal to Popularity is not a fallacy.

DrTentacles Cephalopod Lothario from Land of the Deep Ones Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Cephalopod Lothario
#292: Apr 18th 2013 at 9:10:12 AM

Morality is useless, and meaningless without a society to apply it to.

Icarael is All Elite from The Taguig Sprawl Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
is All Elite
#293: Apr 18th 2013 at 9:16:17 AM

Aagh. I don't know anymore.

All I'm getting is there's no objective truth and meaning is what we make of it. That still doesn't explain why we dislike serial killers since what they see as meaningful and good is just as valid as mine.

edited 18th Apr '13 9:18:07 AM by Icarael

"Stealing is a crime and drugs is a crime too BUT if you steal drugs the two crimes cancel out and it’s like basically doing a good."
Elfive (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#294: Apr 18th 2013 at 9:24:34 AM

I think it might have something to do with not wanting to die.

DrTentacles Cephalopod Lothario from Land of the Deep Ones Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Cephalopod Lothario
#295: Apr 18th 2013 at 9:27:35 AM

...Because their actions go against the common good?

Icarael is All Elite from The Taguig Sprawl Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
is All Elite
#296: Apr 18th 2013 at 9:32:43 AM

Those are good reasons.

But isn't this all just plain pragmatism?

"Stealing is a crime and drugs is a crime too BUT if you steal drugs the two crimes cancel out and it’s like basically doing a good."
DrTentacles Cephalopod Lothario from Land of the Deep Ones Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Cephalopod Lothario
#297: Apr 18th 2013 at 9:33:39 AM

What use is a non-pragmatic moral code?

Icarael is All Elite from The Taguig Sprawl Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
is All Elite
#298: Apr 18th 2013 at 9:37:32 AM

[up] Oh. Right.

I should have been clearer: I meant to talk of pure pragmatism with no consideration for... whatever it is that the non-pragmatic parts of moral codes have. Like being charitable isn't particularly pragmatic since you're depriving yourself of resources, yet we often are admonished to be charitable.

Like, the only reason for doing something is to avoid negative consequences.

Or maybe I'm confusing pragmatism for "looking out for number one" and "fuck you, got mine".

edited 18th Apr '13 9:42:31 AM by Icarael

"Stealing is a crime and drugs is a crime too BUT if you steal drugs the two crimes cancel out and it’s like basically doing a good."
Elfive (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#299: Apr 18th 2013 at 9:44:59 AM

I personally like society, for the most part. It's convenient at least.

Fire Since: Jul, 2012
#300: Apr 18th 2013 at 11:20:46 AM

Laws don't deal with morals (or at least shouldn't in my opinion), they deal with rights.

Serial killers are disliked because they go against the law (since most if not all societies have laws against murders) and because they are a menace others' survival.

P.S. In societies where the laws are actually dictated by morals it is the moral code of the majority and/or those in power.


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