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Feb 9th 2019 at 5:47:24 PM

Again, can anyone point out a single Khan in-game, heck, in any of the games, who qualifies as a non-combatant? I'll be even more generous: a single Khan who isn't both wearing a uniform and carrying a gun?

Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay
it's a living
Feb 9th 2019 at 5:47:51 PM

Like I said, you've already made up your mind.

Yeah, I was there. I was Captain Dhatri, then. That whole situation was a mess and could easily have been avoided with good intel. The major in charge at the time made a bad call - he thought Bitter Springs was full of Great Khan raiders, so we surrounded the place. By the time any of us realized there were civilians down there - women and children - the shooting had already started. The major froze up at the news, and we couldn't get another word out of him. I took over and salvaged the situation as best I could. For my effort, I was promoted to major. Not quite the way I'd have wanted it.
— Major Dhatri

[up]Falls under Acceptable Breaks from Reality. The number of children in any of these games is unrealistically low, but it also means players don't become the authors of their own Bitter Springs every time they start a fight.

Edited by Unsung on Feb 9th 2019 at 6:49:56 AM

Feb 9th 2019 at 5:49:24 PM

Nothing about them being unarmed in there.

Dirtyblue929 Armchair Developer from Secret Bunker Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
Armchair Developer
Feb 9th 2019 at 5:50:35 PM

[up] Why is it that you have such a specific, intense hatred for the Khans? Just curious.

"Oh, no; I'm not brave enough for politics."
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay
it's a living
Feb 9th 2019 at 5:50:52 PM

Uh-huh. Did you read the rest of it? Like I said, civilians, women and children.

Feb 9th 2019 at 5:51:58 PM

I read the whole thing. There's nothing about the Khans being unarmed. The "civilian" classification is technically correct (as nothing prevents a civilian from being armed, it just means they're not part of a formal military) but misleading, because again, the person saying that quote doesn't know about Khan society. He's letting his own psychological issues cloud his judgement. Killing people who can't immediately fight back, even if they by no reasonable definition qualify as "non-combatants", is psychologically taxing for even the most hardened soldier.

Khan women, as clearly observed in-game, are armed and uniformed. Every single one of them.

[up][up]I don't have a specific hatred for the Khans, I just dislike murderers and drug dealers in general. I don't 'hate' the Khans anymore than I hate the Fiends or the Scorpions.

Edited by Kamiccolo on Feb 9th 2019 at 5:54:46 AM

blkwhtrbbt The Dragon of the Eastern Sea from Doesn't take orders from Vladimir Putin Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
The Dragon of the Eastern Sea
Feb 9th 2019 at 5:54:36 PM

He's an actual psychopath who excitedly and eagerly jumps at the chance for genocide. Most likely projecting some real world culture onto this in game avatar. Don't feed trolls and stop debating genocide advocates. Debating someone tells them their opinions are worth considering. Just holler for the mods and be done with it.

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you
Unsung it's a living from a tenement of clay
it's a living
Feb 9th 2019 at 5:54:40 PM

Fair enough.

Edited by Unsung on Feb 9th 2019 at 7:01:40 AM

Feb 9th 2019 at 5:55:19 PM

Evidence of this? Where is there ever a Khan that could reasonably be called a civilian outside of the most technical sense?

[up][up]Now that's just bad faith. The Khans aren't a civilization, they're a gang. This is rubbed in at every single point of the game. Killing every member of ISIS isn't "genocide", nor is killing the Khans. In fact, killing the Khans is arguably more moral than killing all ISIS members, since they all wear uniforms and have secluded bases. Thus there's no potential for accidentally killing a non-Khan, while an errant bomb or shell or a misidentification could kill innocents who happen to live near ISIS.

Edited by Kamiccolo on Feb 9th 2019 at 6:04:00 AM

Dirtyblue929 Armchair Developer from Secret Bunker Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
Armchair Developer
Feb 9th 2019 at 5:57:11 PM

[up] Yeah, y'know, except the parts where it's clearly written in such a way that you're supposed to at the very least feel pity for them.

Regardless this is a discussion for the FNV thread.

"Oh, no; I'm not brave enough for politics."
Cganale That Bastard
That Bastard
Feb 9th 2019 at 6:03:26 PM

Not to play devil's advocate or anything, but being a woman, and sometimes being a child, doesn't mean that they're not enemy combatants. To borrow a phrase: "Threats come in all guises. Not all soldiers are young males, and not all soldiers wear uniforms."

"That went about as well as I expected."
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
Feb 9th 2019 at 6:07:13 PM

Well considering everyone there and everyone in the NCR says they're civilians and call it a massacre I think it's a pretty open and shut case but whatever.

Oh really when?
blkwhtrbbt The Dragon of the Eastern Sea from Doesn't take orders from Vladimir Putin Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
The Dragon of the Eastern Sea
Feb 9th 2019 at 6:08:39 PM

That's the same rhetoric used by anti immigration nuts.

And that's advice that's only relevant when you're occupying someone else's home, someone who isn't powerful enough to take you head on, which is quite often a moral gray zone itself.

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you
TuefelHundenIV Watchman of the Apocalypse from Wandering Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Watchman of the Apocalypse
Feb 9th 2019 at 6:23:46 PM

Seriously folks. Take it to the New Vegas thread.

"Who watches the watchmen?"
blkwhtrbbt The Dragon of the Eastern Sea from Doesn't take orders from Vladimir Putin Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
The Dragon of the Eastern Sea
Feb 11th 2019 at 6:26:41 PM

Hm. The institute doctor who accompanies you to Mass Fusion is voiced by Astrid I think. Or maybe Delphine. She's definitely a rehire from Skyrim.

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you
Balmung Chain Breaker from Nebraska, Free American Empire Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Chain Breaker
Feb 12th 2019 at 3:08:28 AM

Speaking of the Institute, I really don't get why you have to blow the place up as the Railroad or Minutemen. By the time you're in a position to activate the self-destruct, you're in just as good of a position to take the facility over and sort out the fate of all of its residents as you are to blow it up, along with any possibility of making new synths, which one might suppose some existing synths might want to do.

Also, it's a lot less satisfying than getting to line up the Bureau of Synth Retention against the wall and give them what concentration camp guards and their ilk deserve.

I want some flying cars, a ticket to the stars / Or even just a world without religious wars
Feb 12th 2019 at 5:24:01 AM

[up] I think that's it. Bethesda seemed to have lumped those two endings together - the minutemen barely get their own ending. It's tacked on.

Blowing the place up makes sense for the Brotherhood.

Seizing it makes sense for the Railroad - so they can understand the tech. But the Railroad are probably too small, so they settle for blowing it up...

I would've liked some options - maybe persuade the Railroad to take over the institute, or at least their Synth side. Like an occupied power, have the Institute brought to heel; same with the minutemen.

The Institute ending is just... well it's like any of the guild quests in Bethesda games - in charge but not REALLY.

blkwhtrbbt The Dragon of the Eastern Sea from Doesn't take orders from Vladimir Putin Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
The Dragon of the Eastern Sea
Feb 12th 2019 at 7:59:27 AM

you have access to all their resources. Most importantly, the teleporter, and the Synth summoning grenades. Plus, those tools in the storage areas are great sources of fiber optics and nuclear materials.

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you
Feb 12th 2019 at 9:26:30 AM

im still annoyed that the brotherhood quest is so railroaded because of how many branches were cut off during production.

Tacitus Watching Troy Burn from year 2016-IV
Feb 12th 2019 at 10:10:47 AM

Speaking of the Institute, I really don't get why you have to blow the place up as the Railroad or Minutemen. By the time you're in a position to activate the self-destruct, you're in just as good of a position to take the facility over and sort out the fate of all of its residents as you are to blow it up, along with any possibility of making new synths, which one might suppose some existing synths might want to do.

Well, think about it, if Bethesda wanted to do something like that, they'd have to 1) put some faction NPC occupiers in the Institute after a certain point of the story, 2) write dialogue for the Railroad, Minutemen and Institute NPCs reflecting the occupation, 3) record voice actors reading those lines, 4) think up and implement a new batch of radiant quests that would start from an occupied Institute, and finally 5) figure out a good segue into the epilogue movie for those factions that doesn't involve a huge explosion. And that's a lot of time and energy that could otherwise be spent on developing Horse Power Armor and Pip-Boy skins for the Creation Club. So of course it makes sense to take the Brotherhood invasion sequence and switch out which faction is leading it.

Sarcasm aside, I think the Railroad blowing up Synth Central was at least partially done to sidestep the thorny issue of what the group would do with it. Sure, they're in favor of giving robutts equal rights, but does that mean it's appropriate to continue making them? And having achieved their mandate of Synth liberation, what is the Railroad obligated to do with the Institute's advanced technology? Would they share it with a wasteland that distrusts and despises the Synths the Railroad vowed to protect, or focus on launching surprise teleport attacks on anti-Synth gangs?

But yeah, from a storytelling standpoint, it's all a huge waste of potential. And I guess if you wanted to be poetic you could make that the theme of the game in a meta sense, where its developers, like the Institute, created something that could have been positive, even groundbreaking, but kept misapplying their creation and alienated the people they were trying to "help." Bethesda was trying to redefine the Fallout franchise, but instead gave us Yes/Sarcastic Yes/What?/No, There's No Why, a lackluster Season Pass, and Paid Mods 2: We Learned Nothing.

The Institute ending is just... well it's like any of the guild quests in Bethesda games - in charge but not REALLY.

It's at least justified, though. You got your position through an act of blatant nepotism, have spent less than a year in the place you're supposed to be running, and as far as your supposed underlings are concerned you're another barbarian from the surface. I'm more surprised someone doesn't sic the Terminade Runners on you at some point in a coup.

Edited by Tacitus on Feb 12th 2019 at 10:03:41 AM

"This Cannot Continue"
Feb 12th 2019 at 7:53:16 PM

One day a gullible Sole Survivor is going to try to use that teleporter and find themselves stuck in a wall.

SgtRicko from Guam, USA Relationship Status: Hounds of love are hunting
Feb 13th 2019 at 6:59:12 AM

Of all the mods that could ever fit under the category of "So preoccupied with whether they could, they didn't stop and think if they should," I think I've found the mother of them all... well, save for those creepy Caliente's CBBE nudity mods that give all of the females pornstar-like body proportions, and the ones that allow you to kill children.

Behold - Anatomically Correct Feral Ghouls - ABSOLUTELY NSFW!!!

Would you believe I never fully watched the original Indiana Jones trilogy? I gotta correct that someday.
casioonaplasticbeach go commit railroad spike from pg. 231 3/4 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
go commit railroad spike
Feb 13th 2019 at 7:58:17 AM

And this is what happens when Bethesda stops caring about Fallout.

Get a tall glass of iced tea, sit back, and fasten your seatbelts.
blkwhtrbbt The Dragon of the Eastern Sea from Doesn't take orders from Vladimir Putin Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
The Dragon of the Eastern Sea
Feb 13th 2019 at 9:07:08 AM

Oh god why

What's next deathclaw penises

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you
DrunkenNordmann from Exile
Feb 13th 2019 at 9:42:18 AM

[up] Don't ask questions you don't want the answers to.

"A witty saying proves nothing."

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