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Shoehorning in the ensembles

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Mar 5th 2013 at 7:55:37 PM

The roles in The Hecate Sisters are an alluring young maiden, a matronly mature mother, and a wise old crone. I haven't played it myself but does The Legend Of Zelda Oracle Of Ages And Seasons really count? I know Farore has knowledge but the crone has wisdom from having lived a long time and she's probably bitter.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Mar 5th 2013 at 11:16:42 PM

The Zelda oracle games are the page images on The Three Faces of Eve.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Mar 5th 2013 at 11:52:53 PM

I know that but do they also count for The Hecate Sisters? It seems unlikely that an example of The Three Faces of Eve would ever overlap with The Hecate Sisters and I don't think this is an exception.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Mar 5th 2013 at 11:54:05 PM

There was a long argument in the Image Pickin' thread about their looks, but I do not know about the example itself.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Kaleidoscope18 Relationship Status: I wanna know about these strangers like me
Sep 2nd 2014 at 7:52:04 AM

Weirdly, the Four-Philosophy Ensemble trope page currently encourages shoehorning:

It is possible to expand the group beyond four or five members using this trope as a template and fitting additional characters into each slot, portraying different parts of the role, four is simply the minimum to qualify for this trope. Beyond that the number of members is unimportant so long as a significant amount of the members are not Apathetic, in which case it pretty much defeats the purpose of the trope, which is group conflict.
Is this text safe to delete then?

edited 2nd Sep '14 7:52:44 AM by Kaleidoscope18

Would you like to eat my candy paws?
Madrugada Zzzzzzzzzz Relationship Status: In season
Zzzzzzzzzz
Sep 2nd 2014 at 8:26:31 AM

Three Faces of Eve and The Hecate Sisters cannot both be the same group of three. The component characteristics are different:

  • Eve is 1) Child — innocent and childlike; not sexual at all, 2) Wife — calm, mature, and thoughtful, a good life partner 3) Seductress — overtly sexual and possibly sexually predatory.

  • Hecate is 1) Maiden— Budding or impending sexuality, may be naive or curious 2) Mother: maternal and fruitful sexuality, and 3) Crone — sexuality has been left behind with age, wise and/or cynical.

You can't have all six of those characteristic sets in three characters.The same character might qualify for both Mother and Wife, but a character who fits Crone (from Hecate) can't be any of the ones from Eve, and one who fits Child (from Eve) can't be any of the ones from Hecate.

edited 2nd Sep '14 8:29:33 AM by Madrugada

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.
Sep 2nd 2014 at 7:06:39 PM

I'd say that text should be taken out and left out of Four-Philosophy Ensemble based on the first line, "This is a trope applying to the dynamics of groups of four." This doesn't look like Five-Token Band which is really just a token band.

Sep 2nd 2014 at 7:51:37 PM

That text makes it sound like it's describing four different character tropes, with the ensemble trope just being "an ensemble or group with all four character tropes".

Oct 1st 2014 at 9:15:09 PM

An ensemble problem I've noticed is more than two in a duo. Particularly I've seen this in Tomboy and Girly Girl. Usually it's multiple feminine characters contrasted to one unfeminine one.

edited 1st Oct '14 9:15:57 PM by lexicon

Jan 24th 2015 at 12:32:00 AM

Anyone still interested in this? I just cleaned a bunch of examples out of the Sensitive Guy and Manly Man wicks. They were only ones I recognized and there were over a thousand so there's probably a lot of bad ones still out there. Some were trios.

I did some re-cleaning of The Three Faces of Eve. People still want to say there's a mother in there. It's as if the only thing to do to stop it is renaming it to Child Wife And Seductress.

Feb 15th 2015 at 12:57:34 AM

I have a question. The Hecate Sisters says, "Even though they are the same being, they seem to know and think different things, so they bicker." Does that mean that an example can be one person? Some of them say one person is all three including the most recently added. One says the individual changes but others are technically maidens while still managing to be mothers and crones.

May 4th 2015 at 10:59:05 PM

I've been doing more cleaning of Duo Tropes that refer to trios. Going through Masculine Girl, Feminine Boy I've noticed that in some examples the man wasn't feminine at all, just not as tough as the woman. Just because she's strong it doesn't make him not masculine.

shimaspawn from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
May 4th 2015 at 11:43:54 PM

The Hecate Sisters can be one person, if that one person is three people, and those three people are one person. It's a thing that happens with the trio sometimes, and it's confusing and complicated, but it's a common way to portray them.

Three separate people who are at the same time, one person. It tends to involve magic, and/or religious stuff or both.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Nov 1st 2015 at 9:24:46 AM

There seems to be a lot of misuse on Four-Temperament Ensemble. Much of the misuse is Zero Context Example but some of it plugs the characters into the roles as best it can without saying how the temperaments balance each other out and are complementary to each other.

Nov 1st 2015 at 1:27:37 PM

[up] There are also groups of Five or Six listed, with people doubling up on the temperaments doubling up or outright skipping people in the group.

Example:

The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya: Haruhi (sanguine, despite the title), Koizumi (choleric), Kyon (phlegmatic), Mikuru (melancholic), and Yuki (phlegmatic). Tsuruya, an honorary member of the Brigade, fills the purely choleric position.
If anything Haruhi has a Five Man Band dynamic going on with the twist being the Lancer is the MC, it is certainly not this.

edited 1st Nov '15 1:33:16 PM by Memers

Karxrida Frogally Amazing from The Extra Deck Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
Frogally Amazing
Nov 1st 2015 at 1:45:01 PM

I think having a FTE in a group of five characters is only really allowed if the 5 is a Sixth Ranger and joined them a good chunk into the narrative. Something like [up] is a huge shoehorn.

edited 1st Nov '15 1:45:23 PM by Karxrida

If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?
Nov 1st 2015 at 1:58:40 PM

Yeah K On would be a Four-Temperament Ensemble till Azusa joins after the first year of school, in which it stops being an example.

A lot of them are just putting any group and labeling them as one of the 4, or cherry picking 4 people out of a cast of 30 and labeling them that yeah no. At most any group of 4 in a larger cast needs to be some kind of Clique to be this and almost always seen together.

Nov 1st 2015 at 11:38:19 PM

I've deleted the examples I could find that were doubling up on temperaments in film. Pretty much all of it was lacking context.

Nov 2nd 2015 at 9:04:46 PM

If no one has a problem with it I want to remove Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles from the example list and page quote because apparently Raphael is phlegmatic but that doesn't fit "cool, but rude" "throw the first punch" or "got the most attitude" at all. Phlegmatic is calm, humble etc.

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