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Useful Notes with media examples

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Prfnoff Since: Jan, 2001
#1: Dec 24th 2012 at 8:59:26 PM

There is an ongoing long-term effort to shift non-trope pages out of the Main namespace. This has resulted in a lot of pages being moved into the UsefulNotes/ namespace, though they still have media examples. Something is wrong with this situation: "Useful Notes pages should not have media examples," quoth Shimaspawn in the YKTTW for The Klan.

A lot of these pages must have been written back when namespaces were less commonly used, and combined a useful-note description with a list of examples of them being used in fiction; perhaps some of them were moved because they were assigned the Useful Note page type, or were on the Useful Notes index pertaining to some country.

I propose that we start identifying such mixed Useful Notes, and try to separate out the tropes from the notes where applicable.

Nohbody "In distress", my ass. from Somewhere in Dixie Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Mu
"In distress", my ass.
#2: Dec 24th 2012 at 11:10:42 PM

If media examples don't go on UN pages, is there anyplace they do go, and if so where?

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SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#3: Dec 25th 2012 at 11:05:46 AM

That reminds me of the Columbine vs. UsefulNotes.Columbine discussion we had here.

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Prfnoff Since: Jan, 2001
#4: Dec 25th 2012 at 11:54:14 AM

Of these trope/useful note combinations, I was thinking most of UsefulNotes.Scotland, which used to be Main.Bonnie Scotland but is a useful note with examples that show that this is a trope. Perhaps the trope part should be put through YKTTW.

On the other hand, UsefulNotes.Patronymic may have been intended to be a useful note, but looks more like a trope page. The description doesn't really work for either purpose.

Xtifr World's Toughest Milkman Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
World's Toughest Milkman
#5: Dec 25th 2012 at 3:32:30 PM

Wait. Why shouldn't Useful Notes have examples? We recently decided that we should only keep useful notes pages on US presidents that have at least three examples. Not having examples will undermine that completely.

I don't think Abraham Lincoln is a trope, but he appears in dozens, if not hundreds, of works of fiction. Why should we get rid of that huge "Abraham Lincoln in Fiction" section?

I think we're in danger of getting overly rules-bound here.

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nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#6: Dec 25th 2012 at 4:06:38 PM

[up]Ditto. This would create a huge mess for no apparent reason.

Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#7: Dec 25th 2012 at 4:19:17 PM

Useful notes ome in several flavors. For some, it makes perfect sense to have media examples (like Cricket Rules, where the confusing nature of the rules is sometimes lampshaded in a work.) Others don't, like Yanks With Tanks, which would simply be "The American Military was featured in this work in some fashion."

Xtifr World's Toughest Milkman Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
World's Toughest Milkman
#8: Dec 25th 2012 at 4:35:59 PM

Well, then, maybe we should turn this into a discussion about specific examples. We can have three possible outcomes: examples are fine, examples should be moved to an associated trope, and no examples please. We might even figure out a way to tag the pages appropriately.

As an example (similar to the Cricket Rules that Shima mentioned), UsefulNotes.Fermi Paradox has two associated tropes, Absent Aliens and Invisible Aliens, that cover its direct use, but also has several examples on-page where the paradox itself is discussed.

UsefulNotes.Romani is one where we should probably have an actual trope about the stereotypical "thieving gypsies"—an unfortunate trope, but a real one that's common in fiction.

edited 25th Dec '12 4:36:18 PM by Xtifr

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.
Prfnoff Since: Jan, 2001
#9: Mar 17th 2013 at 8:53:33 AM

I just made Joisey a trope page again. The trope and all its media examples had been shifted to UsefulNotes.New Jersey. Most of the useful notes weren't even on the Useful Notes page, however; they had been inappropriately put on a Trivia page.

Prfnoff Since: Jan, 2001
#10: May 11th 2013 at 7:19:57 AM

Just found another "Useful Notes" page that I believe is Not A Useful Note, since it has a scant description and a long list of media examples: UsefulNotes.Hollywood Accounting. The page probably should be classified as trivia, but a TRS discussion concluded otherwise for some reason.

DunDun Wandering... Since: Apr, 2012
Wandering...
#11: May 11th 2013 at 11:04:27 AM

I like the point in 8 about the three possibilities for Useful Notes pages. UN pages include a huge array of subjects, from religions to cities to even food. There's got to be some way to classify which should get trope examples and which should not.

My suggestion:

  • Examples are fine:
    • Subject is found throughout countless media and has a purpose behind its presence (e.g. Abraham Lincoln)
    • Subject is more easily explained by using examples than relying solely on a description and an image (e.g. many religions)
      • Subject requires a description, image, and quote to explain itself
  • Examples should be moved to an associated trope:
    • Subject is the subject of an already existing page/trope/article (e.g. Snails and So On and French Cuisine Is Haughty [note that there aren't any examples on the UN page anyways])
    • Subject is moderately understood with a description and an image or quote (e.g. political pages)
  • No Examples Please:

The pages that I don't think need examples don't even have examples, so I'm curious if this is even a problem...

edited 11th May '13 11:05:08 AM by DunDun

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#12: Nov 7th 2013 at 6:52:25 AM

I think it all depends on the subject in question. If it's, say, a historical person or a country, I don't see what's wrong with a list of appearances in media. But there are UN pages that are strictly for informative purposes and thus don't need specific examples (Gun Safety, Pornography, Suicide Prevention).

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Catbert Since: Jan, 2012
#13: Mar 6th 2014 at 6:27:53 AM

When a Useful Notes page doubles as a setting page, like World War II, we should include examples of media featuring that setting.

SamCurt Since: Jan, 2001
#14: Jul 10th 2014 at 9:58:36 PM

I have noticed the following has media examples:

Scientia et Libertas | Per Aspera ad Astra Nova
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