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There was talk about renaming the Krugman thread for this purpose, but that seems to be going nowhere. Besides which, I feel the Krugman thread should be left to discuss Krugman while this thread can be used for more general economic discussion.

Discuss:

  • The merits of competing theories.
  • The role of the government in managing the economy.
  • The causes of and solutions to our current economic woes.
  • Comparisons between the economic systems of different countries.
  • Theoretical and existing alternatives to our current market system.

edited 17th Dec '12 10:58:52 AM by Topazan

Hawkatana That one shitbag from That place in the thing Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: Holding out for a hero
That one shitbag
#24676: Sep 15th 2023 at 8:17:58 AM

Fordlandia wasn't an outlier, it was the norm.

I'm here, I guess.
Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#24677: Sep 15th 2023 at 8:20:10 AM

The 1900s-1970s thing has a giant-ass hole in it. The Great Depression. Which occurred in part because of 30 years of big government refusing to do anything about major growing problems and families going bankrupt on a regular basis out west, specifically because of right-wing state governments not giving a shit about the actual people and caring more about being able to claim the land from various Native American groups. The Dakotas were an absolute nightmare for this. Not to mention stuff like the Tulsa Oklahoma massacre that completely destroyed a lot of potential black financial institutions before they could get established.

The 40s and 50s got a bit better for specifically white people but black people and Asian people were seriously disadvantaged. Hell, the New Deal almost had public healthcare on the menu, but a lot of white people were so racist they couldn't tolerate the idea of maybe being treated in the same hospital as a black person. They would rather die or go bankrupt than be in the same building as a black person, because some people were so against the concept, they wouldn't even accept having separate wards.

So, no, that period was all kinds of horrific for everyone except wealthy white people. And it's wealthy white people who wrote all the stuff that defined the narrative.

Edited by Zendervai on Sep 15th 2023 at 11:21:44 AM

jawal Since: Sep, 2018
#24678: Sep 15th 2023 at 8:21:23 AM

[up][up]

While you have a point about advanced countries profiting from third-world countries, the fact is that the average citizen in the West is living better than the average citizen in Cairo or Rabat.

Not everyone will benefit equally from capitalism, but the system never claimed otherwise.

Also, no need to capitalize in black, I read every word you wrote.

Every Hero has his own way of eating yogurt
Hawkatana That one shitbag from That place in the thing Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: Holding out for a hero
That one shitbag
#24679: Sep 15th 2023 at 8:21:40 AM

[up][up][up][up] Capitalism by its definition cannot survive without an underclass. Be they in the capitalist's own nation or outside the imperial core. It's a simple concept that for someone to have more than they need, several dozen people (at the very least) must have less than they need.

Edited by Hawkatana on Sep 16th 2023 at 1:21:52 AM

I'm here, I guess.
Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#24680: Sep 15th 2023 at 8:22:20 AM

"Not everyone will benefit equally from capitalism, but the system never claimed otherwise."

Hmm, maybe this is because it's a bad system that's well past the sell-by date.

Hawkatana That one shitbag from That place in the thing Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: Holding out for a hero
That one shitbag
#24681: Sep 15th 2023 at 8:23:29 AM

[up][up][up] Again, that's blatantly untrue. Why else would half the US be on strike and like 90% of the imperial periphery, and even a good chunk of the imperial core below the poverty line if not because of the economic system that governs them.

Edited by Hawkatana on Sep 16th 2023 at 1:23:45 AM

I'm here, I guess.
Risa123 Since: Dec, 2021 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#24682: Sep 15th 2023 at 8:25:41 AM

[up][up] Worse, I would say it was never a good system a first place. Is Capitalism an improvement from feudalism ? Hell Yeah, but I would never call it a good system.

Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#24683: Sep 15th 2023 at 8:26:30 AM

Going "it is how it is and it's how the system works" isn't a helpful contribution. It is how the system works, but that's not necessarily good. A system can work a certain way and be dominant and still be bad.

Can you argue that capitalism is superior to feudalism? Yeah, I guess. But can you also argue that capitalism is still really damn shitty and that maybe we should be looking at other options? And acknowledging when attempts failed due to reasons outside that system?

Hawkatana That one shitbag from That place in the thing Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: Holding out for a hero
That one shitbag
#24684: Sep 15th 2023 at 8:28:37 AM

Do I need to bring up Mark Fischer?

I'm here, I guess.
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#24685: Sep 15th 2023 at 8:29:00 AM

So, no, that period was all kinds of horrific for everyone except wealthy white people.

Racism is fucked, but the problem with racism is racism, not capitalism. Unless you want to argue that under a non-capitalist system, racism would be magically solved and everyone would be treated equally? That's a really hard sell.

Capitalism by its definition cannot survive without an underclass. Be they in the capitalist's own nation or outside the imperial core. It's a simple concept that for someone to have more than they need, several dozen people (at the very least) must have less than they need.

This is far from a given, but even if we just accept it uncritically for the sake of argument, it has absolutely nothing to do with "stages" of history and what the relationship between systems (like capitalism and imperialism) actually are. I asked "what does this highest-stage-of-imperialism thing even mean?" and your response was "the point is, capitalism is bad". It's entirely a non sequitur.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Hawkatana That one shitbag from That place in the thing Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: Holding out for a hero
That one shitbag
#24686: Sep 15th 2023 at 8:30:20 AM

And what you asked is irrelevant. I justified the reason for shorthanding the argument, that should be sufficient.

I'm here, I guess.
Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#24687: Sep 15th 2023 at 8:31:54 AM

"Racism is fucked, but the problem with racism is racism, not capitalism. Unless you want to argue that under a non-capitalist system, racism would be magically solved and everyone would be treated equally? That's a really hard sell."

But if a lot of the problems were because there was a capitalistic incentive to maintain racism in order to ensure a consistent supply of people who couldn't manage to escape said underclass and do the terrible jobs the upper class didn't want to do but were necessary for minimal pay, then they are interconnected, huh?

Capitalism incentivizes cutting costs as much as possible and if you use pre-existing prejudices to ensure shitty conditions for people to force them to do terrible jobs for crap pay, that's racism reinforcing capitalism, which reinforces the racism. It's all interlinked.

Why are disabled people marginalized and restricted from what they need to thrive? It's partly bigotry, but it's also to create an incentive for other people to destroy themselves working as hard as possible to avoid falling into the trap of unemployment or disability. Capitalism incentivizes bigotry in a lot of ways.

Edited by Zendervai on Sep 15th 2023 at 11:37:46 AM

Risa123 Since: Dec, 2021 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#24688: Sep 15th 2023 at 8:35:57 AM

[up] It also distracts poor whites and prevents them from realizing who is stealing from their pockets, so to speak. Yes, prejudice is not directly related to capitalism and yes it would not just disappear under socialism, but it is very helpful in maintaining the capitalist system.

jawal Since: Sep, 2018
#24689: Sep 15th 2023 at 8:36:43 AM

Of course, in the ideal system (as much as anything human can be ideal), you can merge free-market capitalism with a generous welfare system, so that no one has "less than he needs." So while not every citizen will have a private jet or buy a star, no citizen will be homeless or hungry.

You know, like the Nordic system in theory.

But even without that, a capitalist country with democracy and a strong rule of law is still a better place to live than most countries on the planet.

Now, if anyone has a better economic system to propose (preferably but not necessarily with a working Real Life example), I will humbly listen.

Because this discussion is starting to remind me of all those arguments about how democracy is the worst  system of government ever, except for all the others.

Edited by jawal on Sep 15th 2023 at 4:38:32 PM

Every Hero has his own way of eating yogurt
Risa123 Since: Dec, 2021 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#24690: Sep 15th 2023 at 8:40:09 AM

[up] Cooperative based market economy AKA market socialism ? It even has a RL example of sorts, since cooperatives exist and do work even if there is no country with economy dominated by them.

Hawkatana That one shitbag from That place in the thing Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: Holding out for a hero
That one shitbag
#24691: Sep 15th 2023 at 8:41:45 AM

[up][up] Yet again, empirically false. The Nordic model can only function by the exploitation of labour in the third world. That's the folly of social democracy, it just moves the exploitation away from the imperial core so it's out of sight & out of mind.

Edited by Hawkatana on Sep 16th 2023 at 1:41:53 AM

I'm here, I guess.
AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#24692: Sep 15th 2023 at 8:42:24 AM

[up][up]Racism and divisions help whoever is in power to hold the power if their system isn't exactly fair or popular.

The Soviet Union, specially during the Stalinist era, moved minorities and different ethnic groups around the USSR exactly because they knew that they'd spend more energy fighting each other than focusing on the regime, as well stoking things like antisemitism and sectarian hatred.

Inter arma enim silent leges
Risa123 Since: Dec, 2021 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#24693: Sep 15th 2023 at 8:46:22 AM

[up] Assuming you are responding to me. That is why I said it is not directly related, but its part of the problem because yes prejudice is useful for keeping the status quo whatever that is at the moment.

jawal Since: Sep, 2018
#24694: Sep 15th 2023 at 8:56:52 AM

[up][up][up]

Yet again, empirically false. The Nordic model can only function by the exploitation of labour in the Third World

What exactly is " empirically   false " in my post?  I did not talk about third-world countries in the post you are referencing.

Again, if you have a system that you think is better and more workable (like communism), why don't you explain its merits and how it is better than capitalism?

Like @Risa 123 (but with more details),

Sell your product, convince us of your cause,  make me see the light.

Capitalism and the Nordic system are absolutely not perfect systems, we agree, so what is the alternative?

Again, I will listen humbly.

Edited by jawal on Sep 15th 2023 at 6:26:20 PM

Every Hero has his own way of eating yogurt
Hawkatana That one shitbag from That place in the thing Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: Holding out for a hero
That one shitbag
#24695: Sep 15th 2023 at 8:58:29 AM

[up] One that doesn't rely on imperialism like capitalism. I told you multiple times, but you've refused to listen every time.

I'm here, I guess.
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#24696: Sep 15th 2023 at 8:58:54 AM

And what you asked is irrelevant. I justified the reason for shorthanding the argument, that should be sufficient.

So basically, you're not actually going to defend your arguments when called out on them? Glad we got that out of the way this quickly, at least.

Capitalism incentivizes cutting costs as much as possible and if you use pre-existing prejudices to ensure shitty conditions for people to force them to do terrible jobs for crap pay, that's racism reinforcing capitalism, which reinforces the racism. It's all interlinked.

Sure is! And in communist societies, communism and racism is interlinked (see: Stalin targeting Ukraine and Kazakhstan with artificial famine).

Again: the problem with racism is racism, not whatever economic system you're using. Will people use the existing economic system to further racism? Yes, absolutely. Is this problem unique to capitalism? No, absolutely not. Is it worse under capitalism than other economic systems? I don't actually know, that's the sort of thing you need whole-ass multidisciplinary studies to check.

But the flippant claim that capitalism is bad because racism existed in capitalist societies is clearly not a reasonable argument against capitalism.

Of course, in the ideal system (as much as anything human can be ideal), you can merge free-market capitalism with a generous welfare system, so that no one has "less than he needs." So while not every citizen will have a private jet or buy a star, no citizen will be homeless or hungry.

This here is the rub, really. Government can and should be acting to make up for the shortfalls of capitalism, by restricting the exploitative actions of businesses and providing support for necessities (food, housing, healthcare, etc) to anyone who needs it. None of which makes it not capitalism anymore. Most of the arguments against capitalism as a system make the claim that exploitation is inherent in the system, but rarely give any reason why improved regulation of the system can't solve those problems.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Risa123 Since: Dec, 2021 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#24697: Sep 15th 2023 at 9:01:00 AM

@jawal Do you find description insufficient ? If you have any questions, I'm willing to answer them.

Edited by Risa123 on Sep 15th 2023 at 6:01:09 PM

Hawkatana That one shitbag from That place in the thing Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: Holding out for a hero
That one shitbag
#24698: Sep 15th 2023 at 9:01:05 AM
Thumped: for switching the discussion from the topic to a person. Doesn't take many of this kind of thump to bring a suspension. Stay on the topic, not the people in the discussion.
I'm here, I guess.
jawal Since: Sep, 2018
#24699: Sep 15th 2023 at 9:18:07 AM

One that doesn't rely on imperialism like capitalism. I told you multiple times, but you've refused to listen every time

 Eh.....that was ....quick?

Is that all?

No details whatsoever? Just a vague slogan?

-I feel like meeting a doctor who criticizes the medication I am taking, and when I ask what he proposes, he answers:

"The medicament that will make you feel better...duh'''

-Or like someone who criticizes my current job, and when asked if it has an alternative, I got the answer:

" A better job,  B-E-T-T-E-R J-O-B what is so hard to understand?"

-Or if I am told the alternative to democracy is:

" A fair and just system,"

Well, thank you for the conversation.

[up][up] @Risa 123

Yes, please, I need more details, how does it work, what are those examples you mentioned, and how do you propose the system will be applied to entire countries?

Edited by jawal on Sep 15th 2023 at 5:19:39 PM

Every Hero has his own way of eating yogurt
Hawkatana That one shitbag from That place in the thing Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: Holding out for a hero
That one shitbag
#24700: Sep 15th 2023 at 9:24:29 AM

It's pretty self-explanatory. A system that doesn't rely on the imperialist dynamics of capitalism. It's pretty obvious what I was referring to, I don't see the issue you have figuring out.

I'm here, I guess.

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