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There was talk about renaming the Krugman thread for this purpose, but that seems to be going nowhere. Besides which, I feel the Krugman thread should be left to discuss Krugman while this thread can be used for more general economic discussion.

Discuss:

  • The merits of competing theories.
  • The role of the government in managing the economy.
  • The causes of and solutions to our current economic woes.
  • Comparisons between the economic systems of different countries.
  • Theoretical and existing alternatives to our current market system.

edited 17th Dec '12 10:58:52 AM by Topazan

raziel365 Anka Aquila from South of the Far West (Veteran) Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
Anka Aquila
#23826: Dec 2nd 2022 at 9:47:27 AM

To some degree, there's a gap between the theoretical knowledge you can get from college against the knowledge required in the field, but the former is not useless so much that it can be misapplied since the entire point of not letting someone that just knows how to use a program is because they need to discern whether the info that enters is garbage or not.

As for the soft science and humanities thing, as a STEM member that's more on the initiative of the individual to diversify their portfolio of knowledge because the way engineerings are taught ends up rather insular.

Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, we should find the absolutes that tie us.
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#23827: Dec 2nd 2022 at 11:06:02 AM

They want to produce "well-rounded" graduates. (And not just from eating the dormitory food.)

More seriously, ideally the stuff in your general education requirements will teach you the foundational skills you should have learned in high school but probably didn't - stuff like English skills, math, logic, and research methods. It's not as important which science and social science you take, what's important is that you learn how science is done, for example.

There's no excuse for the fine arts requirement, though.

Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#23828: Dec 2nd 2022 at 11:08:47 AM

No, the fine arts requirement matters. The idea behind that is to expose the students to something outside of pure academia. A good college with a fine arts requirement will have a really wide range of options and encouraging students to take at least one elective that just seems interesting can help break the idea that all of one's effort must go towards their career and that being interested in other things is fine.

You'd be surprised how pervasive that mindset is.

megarockman from The Sixth Borough (Experienced Trainee)
#23829: Dec 2nd 2022 at 11:10:33 AM

The well-roundedness idea of requiring at least one elective in a bunch of different areas is something I did and still do appreciate about my college education.

The damned queen and the relentless knight.
Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#23830: Dec 2nd 2022 at 11:13:03 AM

And even if you do the basic "History of Rennaissance Art" class and don't get much out of it beyond "that was kinda interesting", it still creates a new topic of conversation that can be leveraged to network with if you are fixated on only stuff related to work and advancement.

No one likes talking to the person with zero extracurricular interests or conversation topics.

Edited by Zendervai on Dec 2nd 2022 at 2:13:33 PM

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#23831: Dec 2nd 2022 at 11:24:04 AM

It’s interesting looking at how the US does this stuff, in the UK you do your “study a broad base of subjects for a year or two” bit before university, most people do an A-level in something outside the subject they then do a degree on. Our degrees are also normally three years, they go to four if you do something like a year abroad.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#23832: Dec 2nd 2022 at 11:24:22 AM

No, the fine arts requirement matters. The idea behind that is to expose the students to something outside of pure academia. A good college with a fine arts requirement will have a really wide range of options and encouraging students to take at least one elective that just seems interesting can help break the idea that all of one's effort must go towards their career and that being interested in other things is fine.

I strongly disagree that the way to show people that things outside of academia matter is to force them to take an academic course on some random artistic topic. That is, in fact, the complete fucking opposite of all of those things.

"You have to do this academically structured thing that is totally irrelevant to your degree" only teaches people that you're going to be have to do random irrelevant bullshit to please people. :T

[up] Scotland tends to run four year courses. Which is, I think, a large part in why there weren't enough first and second year computer-related things and I had to find other stuff to fill the gaps. Also plenty of revision in some cases since going some A Level stuff isn't covered in Highers and that's another reason. [lol]

Did psychology at A Level, though.

Edited by RainehDaze on Dec 2nd 2022 at 7:26:20 PM

Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#23833: Dec 2nd 2022 at 11:26:09 AM

That's why I said a wide range.

You want to do a life drawing class? Great. You want to study a field of art you're interested in, but not enough to go for a degree or a minor? Great. You want to do the weird sculpture class that's impossible to fail as long as you put some effort in? Great.

The other element is that doing super focused programs are a really amazing way to leave people absolutely stranded if their primary choice doesn't pan out. What happens if you spent four years getting a statistics degree and then the market for that degree just collapses completely? Any inter-student networking in that program was just made useless. Requiring a wide range of electives puts people into contact with other students and other concepts and allows people to start picking up a wider range of interests that might not have otherwise occurred to them.

Edited by Zendervai on Dec 2nd 2022 at 2:28:19 PM

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#23834: Dec 2nd 2022 at 11:27:04 AM

And if I want to do absolutely none of those things, especially when it's ninety percent reading a list of things considered acceptably cultured?

Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#23835: Dec 2nd 2022 at 11:29:10 AM

Then you're a way more focused person than most and you aren't as susceptible to single subject burnout. Which is great, but that's not very common. It's important to remember that a college will have hundreds of students cycling through it and if even 40% get something positive out of the elective, that's a reasonable benefit. (Especially since it encourages colleges to maintain proper fine arts departments when they'd otherwise be left to wither).

I also want to note that "Fine Arts" is an incredibly vast field. If the college is at all competent, you'll likely find something of even slight ancillary interest to you or at least something painless.

Edited by Zendervai on Dec 2nd 2022 at 2:31:25 PM

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#23836: Dec 2nd 2022 at 11:30:29 AM

Why exactly does having a hobby need to be integrated into the degree program as a graduation requirement? What the fuck is wrong with your courses???

Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#23837: Dec 2nd 2022 at 11:31:53 AM

It's not what's wrong with the courses, it's what's wrong with the work culture.

At the university I went to (in Canada) we had a bunch of dropouts every year because they fixated so heavily on their chosen subjects that they didn't do anything else. The ones who were talked into picking electives in each year instead of cramming them all right at the end were a lot more likely to make it through because later year electives are generally much less intense and allow you to get credits without needing, say, six high intensity classes all at once.

It also helped a lot of people realize that, no, they actually find x elective really, really interesting and they pick up a new passion to carry with them that they never had the opportunity to discover before.

Edited by Zendervai on Dec 2nd 2022 at 2:34:28 PM

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#23838: Dec 2nd 2022 at 11:33:33 AM

And instead forcing people to do the irrelevant thing they least don't want to do is going to help?

... This all sounds like a very convoluted post-hoc justification for "this is how we've always done it so this stuff is going to remain required".

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#23839: Dec 2nd 2022 at 11:33:40 AM

Is degree level the first time US students get to pick their subjects? Because in the UK you’re picking subjects at 15/16 with your GCSE subjects (General Certificate of Secondary Education) and then again a year later for your AS-levels and A-levels, where you normally do 4-5 the first year (AS-levels) then drop down to 3 for the final year (A-levels).

It’s after all that you are going to university and picking a degree subject, which may shift about within a field (I did Politics and International Relations but shared classes with people doing just one or doing something like International Relations and Development Studies).

I’m mainly operating of secondhand knowledge here by the way, so if any U.K. troopers want to correct me go ahead. As people probably know, my academic history is all sorts of non-typical.

Edited by Silasw on Dec 2nd 2022 at 7:35:27 PM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#23840: Dec 2nd 2022 at 11:35:52 AM

[up] It depends. Some schools just have different focus areas. Like, you can pick a biology or a chemistry class to cover science, but you have to pick a science. Stuff like that. Many high-schools dropped their art program altogether and that's done a lot of cultural damage, I think.

IMO, I think a baseline understanding of art and at least some of the history actually does matter. It's very culturally relevant.

Edited by Zendervai on Dec 2nd 2022 at 2:36:49 PM

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#23841: Dec 2nd 2022 at 11:42:14 AM

I didn't really want to do all the essay writing involved with the History GCSE. Although since I tend to read up on historical stuff anyway, probably not necessary...

My reaction is also no doubt coloured by how much I hated that one literature course. Reading is something I do for enjoyment. Having to read this one thing analytically (and agree with the thrust of the course on it because its an intro course) and in a small time frame? Horrible. Especially when you disagree with it. Also I would gladly make a pyre of every copy of Wuthering Heights as a result.

megarockman from The Sixth Borough (Experienced Trainee)
#23842: Dec 2nd 2022 at 11:44:14 AM

The mindset of the STEM academic programs. Specialization to the exclusion of all other fields if they are even slightly off-reservation, rote memorization of methods because of the pressure to graduate and get hired and start making six-figure salaries. This especially so for engineering degrees (side note, I recall a study showing that holders of such degrees tend to be more conservative politically than other advanced-degree holders).

I wasn't much for the fine arts, but I still had to take English/Literature classes in high school. I would also note that the availability to choose what classes one takes is very dependent on how much resources the school has, and US public school districts are mostly funded by local property taxes. I was fortunate to grow up in a high-income area so the school district got a lot of money to be able to offer that range of course — a school in a poor area is much less able to.

The damned queen and the relentless knight.
Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#23843: Dec 2nd 2022 at 11:45:49 AM

[up][up] Oh yeah, that's a bad class.

The art elective I took in university was "Cinematography in film". We got to watch a bunch of cool movies and discuss them, and the teacher was good enough to leave out Birth of a Nation (I was subjected to that in high school). I have a big interest in film now, even though I don't have any intention to go into film professionally.

Taking the class gave me a hobby I didn't really have before.

Edited by Zendervai on Dec 2nd 2022 at 2:46:03 PM

raziel365 Anka Aquila from South of the Far West (Veteran) Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
Anka Aquila
#23844: Dec 2nd 2022 at 12:19:02 PM

[up][up]

Engineering student (finally finishing) and I can confirm that's the truth, that's why I agree with Zendervai's mention that fine arts should be included because to top all that you mentioned there's the rather materialistic (and hypercapitalist) mindset that a career that doesn't give you top buck is a useless career so everything you do must somehow give you a lot of money or you are wasting your time.

Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, we should find the absolutes that tie us.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#23845: Dec 2nd 2022 at 12:23:56 PM

megarockman has it exactly right. A well rounded education isn't just valuable, it's crucial. Without a broad understanding of a number of subjects a person's perspective will be inherently skewed, and that can lead to very harmful behavior.

Just look at all the times that techbros tried to solve problems by applying STEM to them without understanding the nuances of the issue, such as the attempts to make shiny and efficient and futuristic digital voting that always proves itself to be 100% more hackable then paper ballots.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Risa123 Since: Dec, 2021 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#23846: Dec 2nd 2022 at 12:30:46 PM

[up] I'm going to throw my support behind this too. I may like fictional characters who focus on one thing at the expense of everything else, but in reality, you need to have some knowledge in a number of subjects if you want to have a decent understanding of the modern world.

Edited by Risa123 on Dec 2nd 2022 at 9:31:16 PM

Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#23847: Dec 2nd 2022 at 12:35:00 PM

[up][up] A lot of the STEM techbro types are also just...dreadfully boring people on an individual level. I've had the misfortune of knowing a few and one consistent element was just a complete lack of curiosity about anything outside their chosen field. Like, I'm not going to talk to you for long if the only thing you can talk about is your projects and how you want to "disrupt the world" with your coffeemaker that can also peel potatoes.

Their hobbies and interests stop evolving when they hit college and like...it's very alienating to talk to someone at an event at an art gallery and then they spend the whole time disparaging the art because their weird invention is better somehow. If I'm trying to talk to you about a Group of Seven painting right in front of said Group of Seven painting, maybe don't talk about how impressionism is stupid because it's not "literal". It's not going to make you look good.

Edited by Zendervai on Dec 2nd 2022 at 3:37:22 PM

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#23848: Dec 2nd 2022 at 12:36:13 PM

Feels to me like leaving it to degrees and achieving some weird semblance of balance by wedging in a forced arts course is both too little, too late, and the worst way to teach any of these lessons.

Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#23849: Dec 2nd 2022 at 12:39:59 PM

The problem is that there's nowhere else to really do that. You can't mandate parents do it, and a lot of schools can't afford to do it.

There's also a purely functional element. Making an arts class a mandated elective keeps the art department alive in a lot of schools that don't have that many people focusing on it. The result of this tends to be a lot of interesting and quirky classes coming from professors wanting to share their hobbies.

The fine arts requirement you get in a lot of programs wouldn't actually cover that class you took, by the way. That'd be lumped in with English/Literature, which is a separate department normally. Removing a fine arts requirement would generally have no impact on the shitty overanalyzing English lit classes.

Edited by Zendervai on Dec 2nd 2022 at 3:41:03 PM

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#23850: Dec 2nd 2022 at 12:41:29 PM

If your first change to get a well rounded education is university then something has gone horribly wrong. Now, I get that something has indeed gone horribly wrong with the US education system, but if feels like you’re patching in the wrong area.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

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