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There was talk about renaming the Krugman thread for this purpose, but that seems to be going nowhere. Besides which, I feel the Krugman thread should be left to discuss Krugman while this thread can be used for more general economic discussion.

Discuss:

  • The merits of competing theories.
  • The role of the government in managing the economy.
  • The causes of and solutions to our current economic woes.
  • Comparisons between the economic systems of different countries.
  • Theoretical and existing alternatives to our current market system.

edited 17th Dec '12 10:58:52 AM by Topazan

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#23801: Nov 21st 2022 at 9:27:10 AM

Well, if you tell us who he is and what the summary is, we may have an answer.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#23802: Nov 21st 2022 at 9:32:55 AM

Yeah, if you could now summarize what you see as the main points, that would be helpful.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#23803: Nov 21st 2022 at 9:43:54 AM

I'll do some of the research: the individual under discussion is Garett Jones (Wikipedia), an associate professor at George Mason University and a professor at the Mercatus Center.

Mercatus is described as a "libertarian, free-market-oriented", non-profit think-tank. The synopsis on Amazon of The Culture Transplant is as follows:

Over the last two decades, as economists began using big datasets and modern computing power to reveal the sources of national prosperity, their statistical results kept pointing toward the power of culture to drive the wealth of nations. In The Culture Transplant, Garett Jones documents the cultural foundations of cross-country income differences, showing that immigrants import cultural attitudes from their homelands—toward saving, toward trust, and toward the role of government—that persist for decades, and likely for centuries, in their new national homes. Full assimilation in a generation or two, Jones reports, is a myth. And the cultural traits migrants bring to their new homes have enduring effects upon a nation's economic potential.

On the surface, it seems trivially true to state that immigration alters the culture of the nation receiving the immigrants, but without further reading I can't examine the conclusions that Jones draws.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#23804: Nov 21st 2022 at 9:54:41 AM

Based on that description, it sounds like a good thing. That's the entire point of cultural diversity, no? Ensuring that the home culture doesn't stagnate?

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#23805: Nov 21st 2022 at 10:08:05 AM

Yeah. Especially given that three generations is enough for effective assimilation. Sure, a lot of people keep cultural traditions and stuff but like...that's not the same thing as loyalty to the home country. Especially given that the US has a national void of a culture if you don't buy into the civil religion. (Regions have their own distinct cultures, but there's very little to draw most people together, so there's actually very little meaningful pressure for immigrants to abandon their cultural practices that doesn't come from individuals)

Immigration and increasing cultural diversity are good things.

raziel365 Anka Aquila from South of the Far West (Veteran) Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
Anka Aquila
#23806: Nov 21st 2022 at 10:13:57 AM

This is the part that triggered my alarms. Knowing that Mercatus Center leans libertarian I can guess now the direction of this book.

Built upon mainstream, well-reviewed academic research that hasn't pierced the public consciousness, this book offers a compelling refutation of an unspoken consensus that a nation's economic and political institutions won't be changed by immigration. Jones refutes the common view that we can discuss migration policy without considering whether migration can, over a few generations, substantially transform the economic and political institutions of a nation. And since most of the world's technological innovations come from just a handful of nations, Jones concludes, the entire world has a stake in whether migration policy will help or hurt the quality of government and thus the quality of scientific breakthroughs in those rare innovation powerhouses.

Edited by raziel365 on Nov 21st 2022 at 10:21:19 AM

Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, we should find the absolutes that tie us.
Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#23807: Nov 21st 2022 at 10:16:41 AM

Well...has that happened? It didn't happen to the UK.

I really want to know what this guy's actual position on the conclusion is. Does he think it's good or bad?

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#23808: Nov 21st 2022 at 10:32:56 AM

I think the bolded part is a reasonable stance. You can't really discuss immigration without also considering the economic and cultural impact, both on the host country and the immigrants themselves.

Not doing so would create a blind spot, and it leads to painful situations like migrant workers who are expected to just pack up and leave once their job is "done", however many years that takes and regardless of things like starting a family.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#23809: Nov 21st 2022 at 12:22:20 PM

Heh, I detect someone trying to have his cake and eat it too. Avoid an open stand and you avoid alienating potential readers.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#23810: Nov 21st 2022 at 12:24:26 PM

Yeah, that conclusion can go to wildly different places depending on your opinion on immigration as a whole.

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#23811: Nov 21st 2022 at 1:07:10 PM

You're right, that claim could go both ways. Still, that is only the back cover. What is the actual conclusion from the book itself?

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#23812: Dec 2nd 2022 at 1:58:24 AM

So, was reading Maryland opened up jobs to people without four-year degrees Now I am not sure whether the article is reliable, but what are the reasons for (and against) having such degree requirements?

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#23813: Dec 2nd 2022 at 2:11:26 AM

I just get an access restricted page, so I'm not really sure of the context.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#23814: Dec 2nd 2022 at 5:32:46 AM

There has been a lot of pushback over the last decade or so against excessive insistence on a four-year college degree as a requirement for many entry-level professional jobs. Interestingly, this has accompanied a flattening of the salary gap between people with college degrees and people without, which has been called out by several econobloggers but I don't have links immediately handy.

We've also seen a number of high-profile people in tech pooh-poohing the value of a college degree, saying that it's more important that people bring the right mental attitude to the job than a piece of paper saying that they studied a lot.

I don't pretend to know the validity of these ideas. My personal tale is one of dropping out of college (for various personal reasons), then working my way up to a well-paying analyst job through knowing my shit really well (and being lucky). I guess I would be in the "you don't need a degree, you just need passion for what you do" camp.

Edited by Fighteer on Dec 2nd 2022 at 8:33:27 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#23815: Dec 2nd 2022 at 5:35:48 AM

IMO, you should probably at least have some people around with the relevant degree.

And the Silicon Valley tech side insistence that a degree is useless also tends to result in tech people slamming headlong into a complete ignorance of the "soft sciences" and not understanding why their genius product isn't selling...when anyone with even a passing knowledge of sociology would instantly be able to pinpoint the issue.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#23816: Dec 2nd 2022 at 5:39:24 AM

They should at least make sure their focus group isn't just SV people. The world's bigger than SV — a fact that I think eludes them at times.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#23817: Dec 2nd 2022 at 5:46:15 AM

Yeah, a lot of SV focus testing can end up with...weird results.

IIRC, there was a thing called the Rotimatic? I don't know how well it's doing right now, but it was a big success for a while (even if it was very overpriced) because it was basically a breadmaker designed specifically to make roti, which a lot of Indian households habitually make for a lot of their meals, usually by hand.

It completely bombed in the SV capital raising and the focus groups because the people involved just could not wrap their heads around why this thing would be useful because they were very low on Indian people, who were the actual target demographic. It got some attention because it failed in raising funds at the same time the Juicero was getting a lot of attention, and the Juicero managed to be consistently less cost effective than just going to the store and buying a thing of pressed juice. But no one raised those concerns because it seemingly didn't occur to anyone that when your "easy and convenient home method" for pressed juice is more expensive and lower quality than just buying some...no one will be interested.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#23818: Dec 2nd 2022 at 5:50:58 AM

The history of dumb inventions winning public interest goes back long before we had Silicon Valley, and I don't know what it has to do with college attendance. I don't know that the typical graduate of a Western college with a business or marketing degree would be more inclined to understand the value of a roti maker.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#23819: Dec 2nd 2022 at 5:52:41 AM

[up]x4 Should point out, it is not a universal truth that acquiring a degree also means getting a broad backing in multiple disciplines. In my experience, I only very barely had to touch on the humanities or soft sciences at all (I did a little bit of legal stuff and an English literature module wherein I decided Wuthering Heights was terrible and somehow wound up doing CV writing to make up credits) in my undergraduate work, but I did spend the majority of four years on a lot of varied comp-sci stuff. Depends where you are.

So, another advantage (from my education) is that you can get people who not just have the basic skills that need less training, but also a much broader experience of some professional landscape and the techniques within it. Of course, from some employers' perspective, 'I cannot get someone who is only specialised in my workflow and technical requirements' would be a downside...

Edited by RainehDaze on Dec 2nd 2022 at 1:52:57 PM

Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#23820: Dec 2nd 2022 at 5:54:05 AM

It was more a response to the more diverse focus group thing.

SV is very insular in a lot of really negative ways. There are start-ups that fail because a disdain for degrees meant they passed over people with an institutional knowledge in their particular topic that would have helped them avoid otherwise obvious pitfalls, and the focus groups and investment groups are overwhelmingly straight white men so anything aimed outside that group can really struggle to get support. They're connected issues.

[up] That latter thing is super frustrating.

"We'd ideally like a candidate who requires no training, no onboarding, is already familiar with our workflow and will not need to ask questions."

"So...like the person you just fired for being redundant?"

blank glazed over look

Edited by Zendervai on Dec 2nd 2022 at 8:55:35 AM

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#23821: Dec 2nd 2022 at 6:13:40 AM

The Juicero's problems went well beyond not having a clear benefit over other methods of producing juice. For one, it was hugely overdesigned with lots and lots of custom parts, which made it prohibitively expensive to produce.

Ars had an article on it. It's well worth a read for a lesson in design.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#23822: Dec 2nd 2022 at 6:16:05 AM

I meant more in a marketing sense. Like, if you offer people an appliance where individual uses of it cost more than just driving to the store and buying the equivalent product, it doesn't actually matter how well or poorly it's made because you basically can't sell that. The problems with manufacture and stuff like how the machine was basically irrelevant were nails in the coffin.

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#23823: Dec 2nd 2022 at 7:04:10 AM

[up][up][up] It's fun looking at programming jobs and seeing how many really want involvement with specific softwares and programming languages. Sometimes to a strange degree, and more or less common.

Though it's also a field with a lot of low-level openings.

Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#23824: Dec 2nd 2022 at 7:08:54 AM

"We require ten years of experience with x program/language."

program/language was released six months ago and was only in development for three years

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#23825: Dec 2nd 2022 at 7:13:56 AM

They seem to have gotten better at requesting specific numbers like that (at least where I've looked), but you do still see a lot of package stuff.


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