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There was talk about renaming the Krugman thread for this purpose, but that seems to be going nowhere. Besides which, I feel the Krugman thread should be left to discuss Krugman while this thread can be used for more general economic discussion.

Discuss:

  • The merits of competing theories.
  • The role of the government in managing the economy.
  • The causes of and solutions to our current economic woes.
  • Comparisons between the economic systems of different countries.
  • Theoretical and existing alternatives to our current market system.

edited 17th Dec '12 10:58:52 AM by Topazan

raziel365 Anka Aquila from South of the Far West (Veteran) Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
Anka Aquila
#27001: Jun 7th 2025 at 10:56:07 AM

@ Fighteer

I admit I'm no economist, but if we believe behavioral economics, then yes, economics also runs on emotions, which is important to remember since the ones that have their hands on the levers of the economy are also people who might or might not act rationally when they make big decisions.

Now, the parallel problem I see is that companies also are now beholden to the principle of growth, that is that companies need to increase margins by whatever means possible to please shareholders. In turn, this means that corporations have the incentive to rise costs on the consumer and their employees, regardless of whether wages go up or not or if that's actually self-destructive in the long run (because, as JS Sterling once aptly put it, companies can't just make more money, they need to make all the money).

Or to put it in other terms, company leaders already have an incentive to make everything more expensive down the line, whether wages remain stagnant or not. In that scenario, the weight of consequences from rising wages across the board is more acceptable since they will still happen due to the actions of the corporate side.

Edited by raziel365 on Jun 7th 2025 at 11:06:51 AM

Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, we should find the absolutes that tie us.
MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
The Encounter that ended the Dogma
#27002: Jun 7th 2025 at 11:04:39 AM

in addition. I woundn't be surprise if some corporate bigwigs have Social Darwinistic tendencies as either ingrained ideology or a result of the growth mindset. Survival of the "Fittest" as defined by how much their profit margins eclipses others.

Edited by MorningStar1337 on Jun 7th 2025 at 11:04:53 AM

raziel365 Anka Aquila from South of the Far West (Veteran) Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
Anka Aquila
#27003: Jun 7th 2025 at 11:11:19 AM

I mean, that's pretty much why Objectivism is so popular amongst corporate, it lets them believe they can be "moral paragons" by acting like greedy bastards.

Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, we should find the absolutes that tie us.
GearFriedTheKnight BLOCKING - A weapon for the 21st century. from The nearest road that can be raced (Experienced Trainee) Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
BLOCKING - A weapon for the 21st century.
#27004: Jun 7th 2025 at 11:15:08 AM

That last one is a bit of a "chicken and egg" situation — did corporate types adopt objectivism, or was objectivism hammered into them at whatever school they went for their MBA, which turned them into stereotypical corporate types?

From what I can tell, a lot of issues originate from academia, where objectivism is taught alongside the Chicago School's productions in some universities. I've seen plenty of people describe MBAs as "the most useless masters in existence" in part because of that.

''There's no magic in tuning; yet, it's something that tends to escape from any logic."
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#27005: Jun 7th 2025 at 11:44:31 AM

A large part of it is also competition, wherein if your profit margins aren't as high as others' in your sector, investors shun you like you've contracted leprosy.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
raziel365 Anka Aquila from South of the Far West (Veteran) Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
Anka Aquila
#27006: Jun 7th 2025 at 1:53:05 PM

Which in turn leads us to one of the classic dilemmas of statecraft. What is good for business (in this case, profit-margin competition) is not necessarily aligned, and might even go counter, to the needs of the population.

Edited by raziel365 on Jun 7th 2025 at 1:54:08 AM

Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, we should find the absolutes that tie us.
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#27007: Jun 7th 2025 at 3:49:59 PM

I'm unsure how popular Objectivism actually is amongst corporate-types, do you have data on that? It wouldn't surprise me too much, mind you. Having said that I would argue even if they did self-identify as Objectivists they don't generally follow its tenets well.

This might be better suited for General Politics or Philosophy, but to use some examples:

A lot of employers actually demand altruism from their employees. The whole "we're a family" thing. They're trying to sucker the employee into thinking of their employment not as a transaction you engage with as a source of income but as service to a higher purpose you should sacrifice for.

In fact, this is a great microcosm of how Objectivism views altruism in general, and Objectivism's core fallacy is to assume that all altruism is parasitic in this manner.

Likewise I'd argue that the modern Corrupt Corporate Executive actually less resembles John Galt and more resembles James Taggart (one of Atlas Shrugged's main villains). You see, Atlas Shrugged's main villains are a bunch of corrupt CE Os, specifically Stupid Evil ones that got by on nepotism, government cronyism, and stealing ideas from actual smart people; their plot is basically to turn the US into a command economy that will prop up their otherwise failing businesses at everyone else's expense.

For that matter, not all of the wealthy are capitalists necessarily. Elon Musk for example has self-identified as a socialist (though admittedly it's a dubious claim, but the fact he even made it at all is telling) and has also expressed admiration for The Technocracy Movement (which was an anti-capitalist proto-fascist movement).

Now, this isn't to say that Objectivism is straight-up good. It has a couple useful insights, such as "self-interest is not inherently evil" and "society glorifies self-sacrifice too much", which actually do need to be taught. Having said that, Objectivist economics are unworkable and the ideology is too deontological and idealistic for its own good when it isn't being callous.

For what it's worth, I'd argue that if there's a specific demographic that Objectivism is meant to pander to, I'd say it's small business owners and struggling entrepreneurs. It offers them two things:

  • It validates their dreams of becoming wealthy
  • It offers them an easy scapegoat for why they aren't: "The people who are already rich are gatekeepers and using the government to keep you down"

For what it's worth I'd also argue part of why Objectivism is leaned into and celebrated amongst the right and whatnot is less because they agree with it and more because it's a right-wing substitute for a product that would normally be sold by the left, and allows them to compete in certain markets with them. It's rationalist utopian framing allows it to be marketable to the sorts of young college student-types who might otherwise become Marxists.

Leviticus 19:34
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#27008: Jun 7th 2025 at 4:21:01 PM

You really think that a substantial majority of business executives identify with a specific philosophy like that? I'd like to see some data.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
The Encounter that ended the Dogma
#27009: Jun 7th 2025 at 4:29:25 PM

In fairness it was mentioned previously that they might had had the ideology drilled into them in the MBA process.

That said that kind of thing seems like the kind of this that is unfalsifiable. Which is to say "Not even wrong". Its a reasonable assumption, just something that can't actually be proven.

Edited by MorningStar1337 on Jun 7th 2025 at 4:31:38 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#27010: Jun 7th 2025 at 4:31:47 PM

I’ve never heard that MBA courses teach Objectivism, but would be very interested in evidence showing otherwise.

In response to your edit, claims require proof. Nothing is “obvious” in the absence of evidence.

Edited by Fighteer on Jun 7th 2025 at 7:32:38 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
The Encounter that ended the Dogma
#27011: Jun 7th 2025 at 4:35:44 PM

Well Gear Fried The Knight was the one that brought the MBA thing up so... (whips out my Reinforcement of the Army and duel disk)

Edited by MorningStar1337 on Jun 7th 2025 at 4:36:25 AM

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#27012: Jun 7th 2025 at 5:09:01 PM

"Not Even Wrong" usually refers to an argument that's not merely erronous but shows a fundamental lack of understanding with the subject matter. IE, "The Earth must be flat, because if it was round, everyone would fall off the bottom"

Though in fairness, the term "Not Even Wrong" implies something is not quite incorrect, so the confusion there is very justified.


Going back to Objectivism, it's actually not too implausible that her ideology is functionally influential on some kind of academic field. Some Objectivists might have established some kind of education framework that influences how MB As or whatever are taught.

Having said that, I'm actually not sure about that. Mostly from a perspective that I don't know what business insights Objectivism actually has, ironically. I'd imagine she's probably more influential on Politicians than Businessmen.

Ayn Rand speaks more often on economic policy than on how to run a business. For that matter, her ethics would probably be seen as too idealistic, disturbingly enough.

IIRC believers in that heresy, Prosperity Gospel, had some kind of influence on Businesses, but I could be misremembering.

Leviticus 19:34
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#27013: Jun 7th 2025 at 8:46:33 PM

Alan Greenspan fucked over the economy due to being a hardcore Objectivist.

Disgusted, but not surprised
raziel365 Anka Aquila from South of the Far West (Veteran) Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
Anka Aquila
#27014: Jun 7th 2025 at 10:51:07 PM

And earlier than him, Milton Friedman identified himself as an Objectivist and one can't decouple his views and impact on global economics from that ideology.

Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, we should find the absolutes that tie us.
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#27015: Jun 7th 2025 at 11:22:15 PM

It's rationalist utopian framing allows it to be marketable to the sorts of young college student-types who might otherwise become Marxists.

This, basically. As I understand it, in actual business circles, citing Ayn Rand has a certain cachet but very few (I think Peter Thiel?) identify as out-and-out Objectivists.

Objectivism is much more popular in think-tanks (at universities, which receive government funding and grants), the civil service, and among professional welfare recipients. This isn't precisely hypocrisy and there's a certain internal logic to the lastnote  but it's still amusing.

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#27016: Jun 8th 2025 at 1:09:22 AM

Not sure if Milton Friedman was an Objectivist. IIRC he said Ayn Rand's movement was a bit too cultish for his tastes.

Leviticus 19:34
Risa123 Since: Dec, 2021 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#27017: Jun 8th 2025 at 1:16:58 AM

[up] The Wiki does say that and does not idenfiy him as objectivism thought certainly as a radical proponent of free market capitalism. Now The Wiki can certainly be wrong, but I think it at least indicate that the idea that he is an objectivism is not common belief. As a result the claim requires a proof.

raziel365 Anka Aquila from South of the Far West (Veteran) Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
Anka Aquila
#27018: Jun 8th 2025 at 1:35:05 AM

[up]

In the interview that’s cited, he does say that while he would like to be a zero governmemt libertarian, he couldn’t be because he didn’t consider it feasible to not have some space for the government.

I will admit that calling him an objectivist outright was wrong, but calling him a libertarian is fair game in general.

Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, we should find the absolutes that tie us.
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#27019: Jun 8th 2025 at 1:52:24 AM

Well, Ayn Rand didn't believe there was no space for the government, just that it needed to be kept in its proper place.

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#27020: Jun 8th 2025 at 2:36:32 AM

Yeah, Ayn Rand actually did very much believe that there should be a government, just that it should stay out of the economy as much as possible.

When Friedman says "Zero Government" he might be more talking about the vision of Murray Rothbard, who he addresses. Rothbard was the founder of so-called "Anarcho-Capitalism". Anarcho-Capitalists essentially believe that Objectivism is not extreme enough, and advocate for the complete privatization of society. They're generally your cringey crypto-bro/NFT-bro/Decentraland-types.

I hope that it is quite superfluous for me to tell you that Anarcho-Capitalism is an ideology to be avoided like the plague, as its doctrines have the potential to bring about a most terrible ruination upon society.

Leviticus 19:34
Risa123 Since: Dec, 2021 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#27021: Jun 8th 2025 at 2:52:39 AM

[up] I would say that if you privatize everthing then paradoxically you make companies the government. (insert horsehose meme) I would even say that it sounds like manoralism a bit. Capitalist are lords and employees are subjects.

Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#27022: Jun 8th 2025 at 6:18:21 AM

[up]Of course not. Manorial lords have an investment in and a vague obligation to their serfs, and don't actually expect them to work to their utmost. Corporations prefer to just cast them aside to starve when they get useless.

It's why I always bitch about cyberpunk stories where wage-slaves are literally forced to work for their bosses. Corporations want you to be "free to starve" so you'll give 110% to avoid being replaced, wear yourself out and then have no support. That freedom-to-starve is important in most corporate sectors (the prison-industrial complex aside).

Risa123 Since: Dec, 2021 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#27023: Jun 8th 2025 at 6:26:19 AM

[up] Frankly I'm not sure I belive that. Like I'm not implying that serfrdom = slavery or something like that, but it sounds too romantized. Some further notes. First, not all subjects are serfs free peasntry is a thing. Second what serfdom means depends on the place. The one I'm most familiar with was abolished in two phases, personal freedom (EDIT: ability to marry, send children to study , moving out of the land controled by feudal lord without their permission) in 1781, corvee in 1848. English Villainege ended in centuries before then. Then we have Russian serfdom which to my understanding was particularly hard and ended in 1860s. One day I'm going to look more into subject or so I think.

Edited by Risa123 on Jun 8th 2025 at 3:27:48 PM

xyzt Since: Apr, 2017 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#27024: Jun 8th 2025 at 6:35:57 AM

Manorial lords have an investment in and a vague obligation to their serfs, and don't actually expect them to work to their utmost. Corporations prefer to just cast them aside to starve when they get useless.

So there werent any serf revolts then? Since that would be a clear case of brutal over exploitation by manorial lords and the idea of some "vague obligation" being something just on paper, no better than all corporate PR values and talk of seeing their employees as families. Frankly, from what I read of Indian manorial landlords even upto the Raj, and what they thought of and treated peasants in their employ from making them absurd taxes upto and even sexual exploitation, i find that they cared even a bit to be hard to believe. And I would assume to some extent that kind of horrendous exploitation must be happening even in medieval Europe.

Edited by xyzt on Jun 8th 2025 at 7:36:28 PM

Risa123 Since: Dec, 2021 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#27025: Jun 8th 2025 at 6:53:38 AM

[up] I actually had to listen to some "corporate responsiblity" bullshit one day. And I thought "how aristocatic". It certainly sounded like repackaged "noblesse oblige". I'm also going to note that aristocracy lives solely front rent. That is what makes one an aristocrat not working. How "noble". That also means that even an actually benevolent aristocracy is returning what they have taken.

As for rebellion here is a famous one from my home country [1]. Like even if aristocracy's notoriety is an exegeration the fact that there were rebelions proves that it was bad. Back home they are sometimes viewed as "assholess who work people to death" at the most negative. Even an historian who said that this image is an exeggeration warned against romantisation.

Also part of their argument was the fact that they simple did not have enought people edit: as overseers to run things more harshly. Which really sounded more like pragmatic evil.

Edited by Risa123 on Jun 8th 2025 at 3:59:28 PM


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