I do think it warrants an Incest Yay Shipping entry, but it's best to go for a very general description and to preview it here first to avoid any shipper wank, as the YMMV page has already been hit by fanatical Wincest/Sam fans with egregious Die for Our Ship bias issues.
Regarding those entries, I noticed that most of them involved the show making jokes about the brothers coming off as gay then immediately followed up with by the brothers being visibly Squicked. I think they should be put under Mistaken for Gay and not Incest Subtext. Save any Incest Subtext examples for the ones where they don't react badly to it, or the Campbell one; ignore anything that is blatant fan meta not acknowledged directly by the show itself.
As for the specific example of them being called soulmates? I'm a little skeptical, just because soulmates is a vague term that can also insinuate True Companions and Heterosexual Life-Partner, and thus it's not as inherently romantic as shippers treat it as (see all the times I've commented that intensity =/= romantic by its lonesome unless there's some additional context pointing in a romantic direction). At the very least it's not as surefire as the (very verbose and gushy) entries talking about it treated it as. If you're sure you want to migrate them, they'd need a lot of trimming and rewriting to be up to snuff.
Actually, thinking of combing through the Ho Yay page again to delete some remaining examples I initially declared as OK, but on second thought think it does fall afoul of the intensity by itself =/= romantic rule I established for consistency's sake.
Edited by AlleyOop on Feb 17th 2021 at 1:37:31 PM
"Strangers thinking they're a couple" would definitely fit better under Mistaken for Gay in conjunction with Relative Error.
I can see where you're coming from about the soulmate example, it doesn't help that the show gives us no other example of soulmates to compare to. I'll list it under Incest Yay Shipping to be safe, then.
Also, I'm not sure if this was during your cleanup or what, the last time I checked these pages it was 2014 or something, but I recall Wincest used to be listed before Destiel, and there used to be a folder for Sam/Castiel? If the folders are being organised alphabetically, then I think Dean/Other should be moved before Sam/Dean to showcase that. Otherwise, if we're going by "character relevance", Destiel would be placed after Wincest (and before Sastiel, when I get to tracking down appropriate entries).
One last thing is that I'd really like to place Sam/Dean entries under Incest Subtext and Incest Yay Shipping and just leave a link in the Ho Yay page. (The show page doesn't actually have anything under Homoerotic Subtext besides a thing about Balthazar from S6, a lot of these entries are very outdated and could do with some reworking.) I'm not sure what the protocol is here (I've seen the same issue with Foe Yay and Ho Yay) but I think the 'incest' thing would take priority over the 'gay' thing, right?
Yeah, and glancing at the Related page I noticed the work page examples for some tropes are rather bare compared to offpage wicks which go into certain things in more detail. I've migrated a few of them to certain character pages for now but Homoerotic Subtext will need some time to reconstruct from the Ho Yay remnants.
I don't really know about the folder ordering thing, but I've been assuming that the page was meant to be organized in terms of entry number size. Even after cleanup, Destiel still has enough material for two folders. Which, in practice, would favor an the alphabetic arrangement, yeah.
As for overlapping examples, I think it's fine if we use the Ho Yay page for in-depth examples, and make an Incest Yay Shipping example that is general (considering all the other examples on this page, it comes off as a subset Ho Yay that has an incestuous flavor rather than the other way around). The number of salvageable examples for Incest Subtext is probably low enough that you can just can migrate each specific one as its own bullet point under it, so long as any gushing is trimmed.
Edited by AlleyOop on Feb 17th 2021 at 2:10:51 PM
I checked on the Wayback Machine and indeed, the folder order was changed after October 2016
. According to the edit history, Sam/Castiel used to have a folder in 2012 that was merged into Sam/Other for being too short (because at that point they were only airing S7). I suppose at some point over the years the edits just got deleted, since the only current Sastiel entry is actually misplaced under 'Other/Other'.
Yeah that's a fair point, I'll make note that Incest Yay Shipping exists on the YMMV page entry and redirect to Ho Yay for in-depth examples. I think the amount of legit Incest Subtext is definitely short enough not to require its own page (although I can't say the same for Homoerotic Subtext, whenever that gets created).
Moving on from Supernatural for a bit, here's my review of HoYay.South Park. Note that while the characters are children, the use of Ping Pong Naïveté in South Park means that reading sexual undertones into situations isn't as unfounded as it would be for other shows (though I'm still gonna raise an eyebrow at anything too creepy).
- Early on, in "Two Guys Naked in a Hot Tub", Stan's father tells Stan he should hang out with Kyle less because people will think they're "funny". Homoerotic Subtext / Mistaken for Gay
- In "Cherokee Hair Tampons", Stan was willing to give up his kidney to save Kyle. He also said he "didn't want Kyle to die until he did." I do remember this episode being very emotionally charged, and Style fans do see it as a shippy episode, but I'm unsure if this could elsewise just read as a very strong friendship.
- "Guitar Queer-O" plays like a break-up/make-up love story between Stan and Kyle, complete with Stan declaring "I need you." to Kyle at the emotional climax. I'd say keep. It's not explicitly framed as gay, as it's more of a band break-up story, but the break-up parallels are present nevertheless.
- At the end of "Super Best Friends", Stan and Kyle announce their super best friendship, to which Cartman responds:
Cartman: Ahhh, that's so sweet, you guys! You wanna get a room so you can make out for a while? Homoerotic Subtext due to lampshading.
- South Park: The Fractured but Whole:
- Stan and Kyle's respective superhero alter-egos Toolshed and Human Kite have a lot of Ho Yay moments, such as Human Kite wanting Toolshed to come back to re-join Coon and Friends when Toolshed and some other former members leave the team to form the Freedom Pals. Unsure.
- Cartman continues to mock them as his superhero alter-ego, the Coon: Homoerotic Subtext
Toolshed: Excellent use of your kite-based powers, Human Kite!
Human Kite: Thanks, dude!
The Coon: Jesus, you two, get a room. - "The China Probrem" features the most blatant Ho Yay ever: Stan and Kyle, sobbing in each others arms after Indiana Jones' Canon Defilement, outright saying "I love you!" to each other while caught in the moment. Other than the "most blatant Ho Yay ever" Word Cruft, I think it counts.
- In "Follow That Egg", Stan and Kyle are the reason gay marriage gets legalized in Colorado, with the interactions between Stan and Kyle basically functioning like "Guitar Queer-O" in some parts. "Nice hat," indeed. It's complete with lines like: Low on context, also might be more like Homoerotic Subtext as they're forced into the role of gay parents in an Egg Sitting episode.
Mrs. Garrison: How 'bout our gay couple: Stan and Kyle?
- In "The Jeffersons", when Stan hears a knock outside of his bedroom, he immediately assumes it's Kyle. And in "Crack Baby Athletic Association", he is completely unfazed at finding Kyle is in his bedroom past midnight, leading to the assumption that this is fairly common. Not sure if this is really "homoerotic." They're children and best friends who live very close by.
- In "Smug Alert!", Stan is crushed when he realizes that Gerald is forcing Kyle to move to San Francisco, and declares that he'll find a way to get everyone to drive Hybrid cars just to have his friend back. The rest of the episode is him trying to contact Kyle and fretting over his safety. Not to mention the hug Stan gives Kyle when he returns, which definitely gets an "AWW" from the fangirls. I'd cut this because this works well enough in the context of the duo being best friends.
- In the beginning of "The Return of Chef", Stan and Kyle hug and watch the sunset together. I'd say keep.
- The two can be seen hugging or sleeping on each others' shoulders many times throughout the series. Cut as general. Best friends do that too.
- In "The Death Camp of Tolerance", when Mr. Garrison is spanking Mr. Slave, the whole class looks on in horror... with the exception of Stan, who is staring at Kyle. Probably more of a "Can you believe this shit?" exchange of looks, knowing the two, but that is kind of a funny outlier.
- According to Word of God, Stan and/or Kyle were considered "most likely" to grow up to be bisexual/gay, particularly with the former, since he's most sensitive of the four boys. More of a Word of Gay scenario, and not about the duo being together, per se.
- Kyle has a picture of him and Stan smiling while holding each other that he must often keep with him. Not sure if it's romantic enough.
- We see this in "Asspen": after Stan tells Kyle he's going to ski down a dangerous slope, Kyle is later seen staring at the picture with a worried expression on his face. Seen above.
- In "The F Word", Stan and Kyle pose for a picture by holding hands when they get the definition of the word "fag" changed from an insult toward homosexuals to instead define annoying Harley riders. Maybe? The context might help.
- Also, earlier in that episode, when the adults think the kids meant "fag" as a slur against gay people, Mr. Mackey expresses his shock that Stan and Kyle in particular would show any intolerance toward gay people. Maybe? The context is that they're some of the more progressive students in town, but I could see it coming across as if they are gay.
- In South Park: The Stick of Truth Stan repeatedly calls Kyle "My Lord". It's worth noting too that their respective roles as a Knight in Shining Armor & The High King are very common among romantic couples in fantasy settings. Leaning towards keeping.
- In "Quintuplets 2000", Stan, Kyle, and Cartman try to imitate circus performers by trying to do somersaults while dressed in only their underwear. Stan and Kyle tumble together and crash-land with Stan right on top of Kyle. I'd say it depends on how it's framed.
- "Ass Burgers" plays out like a love triangle between Stan, Kyle and Cartman. Stan's alcoholism worsens when he thinks Kyle has picked Cartman over him. Drunk, Stan stumbles over to Kyle to tell him "I love you," several times. I'm not sure about the "love triangle" bit but the "Kyle, I love you" bit definitely counts here.
- In "Clubhouses", Bebe hands Stan a note to pass to Kyle. Mr. Garrison makes Stan read it out loud. Stan ends up describing the many things he (in actuality, Bebe) wants to do to Kyle's ass. Unsure, since it's not Stan himself reading it, but I guess that's why it's subtext.
Stan: (reads note) "Dear Kyle, you have got such a great ass. I could sleep for days on those perk cheeks, let me tell you. I'd like to live with you and wear your ass as a hat for all eternity." Whoa, dude!
- Towards the end of "Go Fund Yourself", when the main five are relaxing at the Washington Redskins headquarters, it looks an awful lot like Stan is taking a few fleeting glances at Kyle's ass. Unsure about this one. Might just be weird animation.
- "Imaginationland"'s subplot consists of Cartman trying to force Kyle into oral sex. This definitely fits, because the homoeroticism was not intentional, but a lot of these extra bullet points are nattery and redundant and could be consolidated into a single entry.
- Averted, in the DVD Commentary for that episode Trey Parker and Matt Stone make it clear that Cartman trying to get Kyle to lick his balls isn't sexually motivated and he just wants to humiliate Kyle. However, that doesn't stop the context from being written in large, bold letters. Not an aversion as it's YMMV — in fact, this strengthens it being Ho Yay instead of Homoerotic Subtext.
- At the end of Part I of the trilogy, Cartman takes out a photo of a sweet, innocent-looking Kyle and lustfully traces his finger across Kyle's lips, while saying, "Make no mistake, Kyle. Before this is over, you WILL suck my balls."
- Though it's a The Only One Allowed to Defeat You thing (Kyle can't die until he sucks Cartman's balls), Cartman nonetheless looks distressed that Kyle might actually die, leading to him crying and screaming when trying to revive him, and laughing with joy when he succeeds. Even if it’s for the sake of his testicles, it’s a wholesome moment.
- It also shows that if Cartman would go as far as to save Kyle's life solely to humiliate him via ball sucking, he definitely has some sort of sexual fixation with him...
- The scene is amped up by doing a quote on quote parody of an emotionally charged scene from The Abyss, where the main character frantically attempts to resuscitate his estranged wife. This entry can stand on its own, and I think it's valid.
Cartman: Goddammit, Kyle, you never walked away from anything in your life! Now fight! Fight! Fight! Right now! [begins to break down] Fu-hight! Fu-hu-hight! [pounds Kyle's chest hard] Fight! - In "Fun with Veal", Kyle comes very close to kissing Cartman's ass to save some baby cows. Of course, this is just so Cartman can fart on him. Probably a keeper?
- In "Cancelled", Cartman got another anal probe which leaves a satellite inside his rectum. When they went to the scientist for help, the scientist asked them to activate the satellite... which requires someone to put his/her hand into Cartman's rectum. Not too surprisingly, Cartman insisted that Kyle must be the one to do it. Sure, Cartman was just trying to humiliate Kyle (as he proceeded to fart in Kyle's face seven times). Regardless, Cartman seemed a little too enthusiastic about having Kyle's hand in his ass... Probably keep it.
- In "ManBearPig", when Cartman brags to a sleeping Kyle about how he's going to sneak the treasure he found while the boys were caved in, he hovers so close to Kyle's face, it looks like their lips could touch at any moment. Unsure. I don't think it's really an Almost Kiss, but depending on how close Cartman gets to Kyle, it might look shippy on his end.
- In "Le Petit Tourette", when Kyle ruined Cartman's chance to go on a national TV show (unaware that Cartman was in fact desperately trying to avoid doing so), Cartman gave Kyle a hug, saying “I love you man!” out of pure relief in being spared from public humiliation. Maybe? But unsure.
- In "It's a Jersey Thing", we get this.
Cartman: You saved my life, Kyle. Deep down inside you're a monster. (pinches Kyle's cheek teasingly) But you're my little monster. I'd say keep. It's very affectionate with little context for why it is.
- Not to mention that it's Cartman getting sexually assaulted by Snooki that triggers Kyle's Jersey transformation in the first place, despite other boys suffering the same fate before him. And after getting saved, Cartman even gives a tearful thank you to Kyle. Not sure if this is really a shippy scene.
- Throughout "Smug Alert!", Cartman expresses nothing but joy that Kyle and his family no longer live in South Park, and he uses Butters as his "Jew Substitute", but quickly comes to realize that without Kyle to actually react (Butters simply takes the bullying and doesn't retaliate, making him boring), then his life is empty and hallow. This prompts a Status Quo Is God through Cartman saving Kyle and his family (including Sheila, the woman who he thinks of as a "big fat bitch", got a V chip implanted in his brain, and would probably be the heaviest person to carry) from the smug storm and returning them to South Park. I think the way the heroism is framed, it could count, but there's not enough details supporting that angle.
- In "Tonsil Trouble", Cartman gives Kyle AIDS and the two must travel together cross-country to find a cure. Kyle will angrily and frequently remind or tell people that it was Cartman's fault that he has HIV, and is met with many, many Mistaken for Gay jokes. Not to mention the massive amounts of Foe Yay. Due to the Mistaken for Gay jokes (though it's only two or three, not "many") and thus too deliberate to be Ho Yay.
Kyle: "Oh please, no reason! I got AIDS from him!"
Airline Worker: "Oh, so you boys are like that, huh?" (makes lewd hand gestures)
Kyle: "NO!"- And during the ending:
Announcer: "These brave friends..."
Kyle: "Oh stop! We're not friends! He's the one who infected me with AIDS!"
Announcer: "...These brave lovers..."- And every time someone makes this mistake, it is Kyle alone who gets angry about it. Cartman is eerily silent in contrast to his reaction to the Mistaken for Gay moment with Butters in "Super Fun Time". Though it could be because he enjoys his rival's frustration, Cartman being Cartman. Kind of nattery, not sure what to do with it.
- When Kyle and Cartman are on the plane to visit Magic Johnson, Cartman tries to hold Kyle's hand on the plane, but lets go after Kyle's angry "Don't. Touch. Me."
Cartman: "I know. I'm scared, too." This might be able to stand since it's independent of the Mistaken for Gay scenes.
- This scene notably gets paralleled a couple episodes later by Kyle's parents
◊.
- This scene notably gets paralleled a couple episodes later by Kyle's parents
- Oh and this little gem:
Butters: Wow, you really know what you're doing.
Cartman: Yeah, I sneak into Kyle's room lots of times. Unsure but leaning to keep.
- In "Kenny Dies", Kyle sees Cartman crying and hugs him while the two cry together. At the end of the episode, when it turns out it was just a scheme, Kyle says "I actually hugged you... I held you in my arms and cried with you." Maybe? The context of the scene is "friends bonding over a dying friend" though.
- In "Funnybot", the translation for part of what Cartman says to convince the Germans about Kyle (when attempting to get him captured or worse) is:
Cartman: A handsome soft Jew. He's fresh. And beautiful, beautiful. Keep.
- In "Crack Baby Athletic Association", Cartman and Kyle sit together naked in a hot tub full of KFC gravy. While eating French fries. (They could be wearing swim trunks, but the naked implication is justifiably plausible.) I think the "naked vs swim trunks" thing is weird. Being shirtless in a hot tub of gravy might be suspect enough to count, though.
- Kyle attempts to explain to Cartman his plan to build a crack-baby orphanage out of their profits. Cartman is so happy with the idea (because it will get the public on their side) that he pulls Kyle into a hug. Kyle finds it slightly worrying. Unsure if the hug is shippy enough.
- When Kyle tells Stan about the Crack Baby Athletic Association, Stan is initially shocked and appaled, only for Kyle to try and justify their purpose and how ethical it actually is. When Kyle asks what's unethical about the Crack Baby Athletic Association, Stan sums it up in one sentence which shows just how much Cartman's plan is rubbing off on Kyle: Doesn't really sound like anything romantic between Kyle and Cartman, just a Toxic Friend Influence scenario.
Stan: You sound like Cartman.
Kyle: ...Ooh! ...Dude, the thing is, we're not the ones who made them crack babies. That's their moms' goddamn fault!
Stan: Yeah, I'm sure that's what Cartman would say too.
Kyle: I do not sound like Cartman, goddamnit! (frightens himself and glances at Stan, then looks away and glances at Stan again) Okay, so... see ya. (goes out the front door and closes it behind him) - Season 16 hasn't been dubbed by fans as "The Kyman Season" for nothing:
- "Jewpacabra" is yet another episode focusing on Cartman's usual antisemitic antics, with Kyle taking on the role of the exasperated straight man once again. What's different about this episode, however, is that despite having the perfect opportunity to watch Cartman get his just desserts, Kyle decides to save him And get him a blanket. And tuck him into bed. At the end of the episode, it's shown that Cartman's antisemitic antics are because he actually believes that Jewpacabra is real and that Cartman finally accepts the Jewish for who they are after having a nightmare about how they suffered, even proclaiming to Kyle that he's converted to Judaism as well. Even Kyle realizes that Cartman wasn't making up the whole story about Jewpacabra; he genuinely believes in Jewpacabra and admits that Cartman wasn't lying... while implying something from an earlier argument that the only people who believe in such mythology are either lying or extremely stupid. I think the only part of this entry that could be shippy at all is Kyle tucking Cartman into bed. The rest is just...plot summary.
- "Cartman Finds Love" taking both the trope and his racism to the most extreme. Cartman becomes obsessed with the prospect of Token and Nicole- two black students -getting together. When Cartman attempts to set the two up, he finds out that Nicole has a crush on Kyle rather than Token, much to his dismay. His tactic on keeping Nicole with Token? To pretend he is in a gay relationship with Kyle. He later manages to convince Nichole to go back to Token by not only giving a long winded speech, but even serenading Kyle in front of an entire basketball game while a heart forms around them on a Jumbotron, leading Kyle to leave, humiliated. It's invoked Homoerotic Subtext, and does not count.
- "Obama Wins!" continues the trend with Cartman (regarding Kyle) saying "Run now, Little Firefly", reminiscent of Hannibal Lecter talking to Clarice Starling (whom Hannibal became obsessed with and stalked, watching her sleep and touching her hair). Given the context of the Shout-Out, we could keep it.
- "Ass Burgers" plays out like a love triangle between Stan, Kyle and Cartman. San gets angry at Kyle for picking Cartman over him. Kyle even says to Stan at one point, "I'm with Cartman Burger now", referring to their business. Of course, this all ends with Status Quo Is God and the two become rivals again. Hmm, I'm doubting what I said before about this episode now, as the phrasing of "I'm with Cartman Burger" (even if he means the company) could count this as having love triangle subtext.
- South Park: The Stick of Truth:
- One of Kyle's battle quotes is "By the moon and the stars in the sky, I swear we will destroy you!" which is awfully similar to the lyrics of "I Swear", the song Cartman sang to him in "Cartman Finds Love". I think this is a keeper. While the "I Swear" scene itself is Homoerotic Subtext, this doesn't seem intentional, just a Call-Back.
- One of Cartman's defeat quotes if you choose to fight him has him saying "Tell Kyle to suck my balls." Keep.
- One of his battle quotes is "I wish there was a spell to make Kyle suck my balls." Keep.
- Season 20, so far, has had Kyle's subplot coming off as him being Cartman's jilted lover. Could be rewritten to avoid the episodic troping (which is a problem with Season 20 across all the pages).
- Much of Kyle's dialogue in regards to Cartman in the second episode directly mirrors Wendy's dialogue in regards to Stan and he mourns Cartman's "disappearance" and crying over it in the montage where the boys are being dumped. Keep, the juxtaposition of him mourning Cartman while the boys mourn their girlfriends is very suggestive, possibly unintentionally.
- He joins Butters' Weiners Out cause only after he finds out Cartman is dating Heidi and the two speak directly about how "Kyle doesn't like Heidi" (Cartman's words), though it could be because he was annoyed with their relationship as everyone else is, and initially shocked at someone like Cartman being in a relationship. I think it's more because Kyle resents Cartman being the only one with a girlfriend, but Cartman assuming Kyle just doesn't like Heidi does sound more like he's teasing Kyle that he's jealous of her. So it could count.
- There's been some similarities between Kyle's parents and Cartman and Kyle. One is a brunette who can be a rather vicious and sexist troll (to the point everyone really thought that Gerald's internet persona was Cartman). The other is a Fiery Redhead with a higher moral compass than the other and end up instigated a war with Canada during an attempt to censor Terrance and Phillip. Cut. I think this is reading too much into things.
- South Park: The Fractured but Whole:
- Despite their rivalry, Kyle decides to stay on the Coon and Friends side, due to him being benefited by Cartman's super hero franchise plan. They still argue every step of the way, and Kyle ends up regretting his choice in the end. Nothing here suggests anything romantic.
- Timmy's franchise plan has a Cupid Me webseries that is connected to both The Coon movie and The Human Kite movie
◊. Keep.
- Cartman's journal has several drawings of Kyle in sexual situations, including a picture of two Kyles having sex with each other, surrounded by hearts. Keep...that was so freaky.
- In "A Boy and a Priest", Kyle is immediately goaded into telling Butters to make Father Maxi leave Clyde's birthday party simply by Cartman growling a stern "Kyyyyyle" when Cartman backs up Clyde. Many fans joke about how "whipped" Kyle must be. Not sure.
- There are a few Kyman moments throughout "Tegridy Farms":
- Cartman punching Butters for selling a vape pen to Kyle's brother Ike saying: "This is for Kyle". Though it’s later revealed that Cartman only did this to keep suspicion away from him. The context quickly negates this. Butters was working for Cartman.
- When Kyle does learn of Cartman's involvement in the vape business, Cartman tries everything to prevent Kyle from reporting him, including lying that he'll stop and using threats to force Kyle to stay with him, similar tactics that he used to keep Heidi from leaving him last season. (Although, season 21 is noted as the season where Cartman falls out of love with Heidi, compared to his romantic infatuation with her in season 20.) This is a huge stretch. Cartman manipulates everybody this way when he gets desperate. It doesn't mean they're romantic.
- Cartman once performed oral sex on Butters (hence the Pun-Based Title "Cartman Sucks") while he was passed out from cold medicine, took a picture of it, and even had the balls (sorry) to say that Butters was the gay one in that situation. The other boys quickly corrected him. Then Cartman attempted to have Butters reciprocate the not-so-blatant blowjob to remedy the situation. Given that the plot is about Butters going to conversion camp over this, it's Homoerotic Subtext and not valid.
- And how could we forget the scenes before that? Cartman showed Stan, Kyle and Kenny a series of pictures of how he messed with Butters when the latter is sleeping. Set aside the implications (i.e., Cartman either snuck into Butters' room a lot or had frequent sleepovers with him), many of the photos involved Cartman doing some really sexual things to Butters. E.g., rubbing his ass cheeks against Butters' face is just one of the many. Not sure, but since it's part of the whole plot about Cartman looking gay, I'm inclined to move it for the same reasons as above.
- And then there's the time he walked in on an "indecent" Butters in the bath during "The China Probrem". Even holding his hand... while he was still inside the tub. Probably a keeper.
- Near the beginning of "Tonsil Trouble", Butters kisses Eric in front of a room of people to show him that he's not afraid to touch him. Keep. (Though let the record show it was a cheek kiss.)
- "The Death of Eric Cartman" has this vibe throughout, especially when paralleled with Patrick Swayze and Demi Moore in Ghost. Basically a ZCE. I don't know if there's any scenes in the episode paralleling the romance like that.
- "Super Fun Time" involves Butters spending an entire field trip escorting Cartman by hand. As this basically plays out like the two of them are on a date, that appropriately invoked very predictable responses from some people. Homoerotic Subtext because it gets lampshaded.
- When they first arrive at the arcade Cartman says if Butters doesn't let go of his hand, people will think they're gay, and Butters is completely okay with that.
- They also share an ice cream together, even using straws to sip from it. During this, Butters angrily reprimands someone for staring at them. Cartman clearly notices this, but has a big smile on his face the whole time. Proooobably meant to look like intentional subtext?
- When Cartman crashes and ends up in the hospital in "Poor and Stupid", Butters stays by his bedside well into the night (you have to wonder whether he told his parents where he was). When Cartman says he may as well kill himself because he can't be a NASCAR driver, Butters gets upset and sternly tells him never to say something like that again. Staying by Cartman's side might count, but unsure if Butters chastising his suicidal comment is really romantic.
- Of all the townspeople, Cartman is the first—and most eager—to try Butters' "creamy goo" in "Sarcastaball". As in, his semen that occurs during his nocturnal emissions. Probably a keeper.
- Cartman is the first person to notice Butters has gone missing in "The Last of the Meheecans". In-context, it's not much (Cartman just wants to win the game) but given that Cartman and Butters have a fairly deep friendship in other episodes... Seems like a stretch that even acknowledges it's not much.
- In "Proper Condom Use", Butters is putting on a condom, and Cartman watches him. Probably counts?
- More or less, the entirety of "AWESOM-O". Special mention goes to Butters having AWESOME-O (Cartman) put in his rectal suppository for him. Needs more context on the other scenes, but this particular scene probably counts. There's also a scene of Butters cuddling with AWESOME-O in bed so that might be notable too.
- In "Casa Bonita": "Eric, you're the best friend in the whole world. I-I love you..." Probably counts?
- Butters and Cartman wrestling at the beginning of "W.T.F". This trope is lampshaded. Cut as consistently lampshaded Homoerotic Subtext.
- At the end of "Lil' Crime Stoppers", Butters extracts his first semen sample by thinking about Stan's mother's breasts. In "Pre-School", the boys were unwilling to get an actual picture of her breasts, so they took a picture of Cartman's ass with nipples drawn on it instead. So if Butters had never seen her actual breasts, then that means Butters decided to improvise for the sample. This seems like way too much of a stretch, especially since "Pre-School" is chronologically after this episode and there's no indication Butters was thinking about Cartman here.
- However, this could be Jossed, as Parker and Stone stated in the commentary that they felt that he lied about providing a sample due to his age. Natter, but might prove my point further.
- In "Cartman's Silly Hate Crime 2000", we have this gem: "All that time, we didn't understand what a unique and magical ass it was." note It does make sense in context, but the Innocent Innuendo allows it to count here as well.
- Cartman hugs Butters after Butters gets his first kiss. Not sure.
- In South Park: The Stick of Truth, Butters refers to Cartman as "my king". Unsure. Maybe? I don't think he's alone there.
- In South Park: Bigger, Longer & Uncut, before Butters even had a name, we get this absolute gem:
Cartman: Yes, I saw the Terrance and Philip movie. Who wants to touch me? [Beat] I said, who wants to fuckin' touch me?!
Butters: *pokes at Cartman, clearly interested* Ooooooh.- Cartman clearly smiles when Butters does that. Eh, I'd count this moment.
- Butters gives Cartman a hickey in "The Ungroundable". He was actually attempting to suck Cartman's blood after becoming a member of the Vamps, but the context is still there. I think Cartman calls out Butters as gay for this so it's Homoerotic Subtext / Mistaken for Gay, not this.
- Not to mention Cartman doesn't seem to mind Butters being attracted to him. See above.
- Butters comforts Cartman after Token and Nichole's breakup in "Cartman Finds Love". I don't think this is inherently romantic.
- In "Going Native", Cartman is extremely jealous of Kenny when Butters claims that Kenny is his best friend. Is he really? I just remember Cartman making fun of Kenny after Butters says that.
- In season 18's "#REHASH" (S 18 E 09), Cartman (in his "CartmanBra" persona) calls Butters his bitch because the latter finds everything the former says funny. Butters just laughs at that. Could be a keeper.
- In "Stunning and Brave", Cartman attempts to have PC Principal framed and fired from the school, so he comes up with a plan that involves Butters' underwear. That is suspicious, but when Cartman confronts PC Principal, he takes out Butters' underwear to explain his plan to frame PC for pedophilia... and sniffs the underwear to determine that the underwear belongs to Butters. His immediate comment ("Why, this is Butters' underwear") makes it official that he has upgraded his status to "underwear sniffer", and that is highly disturbing. Keep.
- Butters, himself, didn't seem that disturbed in having to give Eric his own underwear. Could merge into the above point.
- When Cartman is waking up from a nightmare, he immediately starts calling Butters' name. Butters, having stayed behind to watch Cartman while everybody else left, grabs Cartman's hand and asks if he is all right. Sounds valid.
- Butters shows affection for Kenny in "Major Boobage" by holding him, and is the only one to show sympathy for him when Kenny is high off cat urine, acting more like he's on heroin. It's a fairly tender moment. Hard to say if it's romantic enough, though.
- Butters states that Kenny is, as of "Going Native", the only person at school Butters likes.
- This causes Cartman to respond with "You guys gonna make out, Kenny?" He later tells him to "go rescue Butters so he can lick your balls some more." Move to Homoerotic Subtext.
- That episode in general is full of Ho Yay moments between them, including multiple scenes where they're holding hands. Could be a keeper if only for the constant hand holding.
- Butters drew a picture for Kenny of him and Kenny together in an airplane in "Kenny Dies". Not really romantic enough.
- Kenny is both physically and emotionally sweet and comforting to Butters in "Lil' Crime Stoppers" while playing "Good Cop". Kenny does pet and caress Butters, so I think it could count.
- Kenny and Butters hug each other while everyone else just high fives when Stan and Kyle reach 100,000 points in "Guitar Queer-O". Hmm...maybe. The juxtaposition might let it count.
- Butters was really upset when he found out Kenny had a girlfriend in "The Ring", and even called Kenny's then-girlfriend a "total slut". Ouch. I always found his reaction to Tammy a little over the top, but I'm not sure if it's Ho Yay levels.
- In South Park: The Stick of Truth (which is considered canon to the show), Butters even admitted to having a crush on Princess Kenny. Even though Kenny was roleplaying as a chick, it wasn't as if Butters didn't know it was just Kenny wearing a dress. Probably a keeper, but it might count as Ship Tease. Depends on how much you see their fantasy personas as connected to their real selves (Princess Kenny seems very distinct, for example).
- In "A Boy and a Priest", after Stan denies that he invited Butters to their game night, Kyle, Stan and Cartman all knowingly/suspiciously stare at Kenny. Not really romantic enough.
- Butters can be seen wearing the same birthday party hat that Kenny wore in "You're Getting Old". Too much of a stretch. Just a recycled prop.
- Jimbo and Ned both live in a single house for no important reason and are unrelated. They also have hospital visitation right to see each other if one of them gets hospitalized. Both of them are at the very least Ambiguously Bi. Kind of general but there are many specific examples here.
- In "Jakovasaurus", Ned is seen walking around wearing nothing but zebra-striped underpants and a short red bathrobe in front of Jimbo and Jimbo seems perfectly fine with this. Keep.
- In "Two Guys Naked in a Hot Tub", Randy and Gerald admit that they both masturbated in a hot tub at the same time during a meteor party and they get worried that it made them gay. Jimbo and Ned admit that they did the same thing and Jimbo goes on to say that "everyone is a little gay". Homoerotic Subtext.
- In "It Hits the Fan", Mr. Garrison claims that anyone who says the word "fag" without getting bleeped is a homosexual. Randy and another man try to say it but get bleeped. Then Jimbo protests Mr. Garrison's claim and says the word without getting bleeped, which implies Jimbo to be gay and Mr. Garrison mocks him for it. Ned does not say anything in this scene though but he fails to defend Jimbo from Mr. Garrison's mocking. More a case of Jimbo himself being Ambiguously Bi.
- In "A Ladder to Heaven", when Randy says that the boys are building a ladder to Heaven to see Kenny (at that point Killed Off for Realnote ), everyone starts crying at how sweet that is and as a result couples start comforting each other by wrapping their arms around their partners' backs; during the process, Ned does so as Jimbo starts breaking into tears. I'd say this counts.
- Towards the end of "The Mexican Staring Frog of Southern Sri Lanka", after Ned has been put into a semi-comatose state, Jimbo claims showing him some hardcore porn will snap Ned right out of it, suggesting they've enjoyed porn together quite often. Notice Jimbo never specifies the type of porn...Not sure...kind of have to really read between the lines there.
- One of the embarrassing secrets Cartman would have admitted, in "Le Petit Tourette", was an experimental homosexual act he committed with his cousin. Deliberate Homoerotic Subtext / Ambiguously Gay.
- Cartman: My cousin and I touched weeeEEEE...WEEN-ter is a very cold time of year!
- The throwaway lines about Cartman which includes him acquiring semen by orally pleasuring a man. Or his obsession with Mel Gibson. Or that time he whacked off Ben Affleck...or Kenny's dog... or Leonardo DiCaprio. Again, this is Cartman himself being Ambiguously Gay.
- There are significant moments for Cartman and Clyde. From "The Death of Eric Cartman":
Cartman: Clyde, can you feel me? Feel me, Clyde! Could probably count.
- In "Make Love, Not Warcraft", during the meeting to form a plan against the player who keeps killing them, we get this dialogue. I think it counts. In context it could be seen as "Cartman saying the one French line he knows" but it can also be taken as him subtly coming onto Clyde, deliberately or otherwise.
Cartman: When Hitler rose to power, there were a lot of people who just stopped playing. You know who those people were? The French. Are you French, Clyde?
Clyde: No.
Cartman: Voulez-vous coucher avec moi, Clyde? (Do you want to sleep with me, Clyde?)
Clyde: All right, all right, I'll do it!- Clyde hugging and affectionately squeezing Cartman at the end of "Cartman's Silly Hate Crime 2000", although this may in fact be due to Cartman's return from juvenile hall and, therefore, Clyde no longer has to be the "fat kid". I think the context might go against this one.
- In the beginning of "Stupid Spoiled Whore Video Playset", Bebe is shown holding Wendy's hand as she takes her to see Paris Hilton in person. Not sure. Girls holding hands isn't inherently romantic, is it?
- In "Something You Can Do With Your Finger", Wendy chooses Annienote to fall for her in the boys' Fingerbang band and as a result Annie is shown touching/rubbing on Wendy, clearly interested. Keep.
- In Season 19's "Truth and Advertising", Cartman states that one time Clyde was joking around and asks Token to give him a blowjob. Maybe? In context it's an insult but could be taken as unintentionally gay.
Cartman: Yeah, yeah, so, so, Clyde says to Token: "Why don't you open a bank account with your mouth so I can deposit my dick in it?" [The boys laugh]
- The embarrassing tape of Cartman dressing up as Britney Spears and dancing with a cardboard cut-out of Justin Timberlake shown at the end of "AWESOM-O". More Cartman alone being Ambiguously Gay.
- In "Goobacks", all the men in South Park are trying to stop the Bad Future from happening in order to solve the time traveler immigration problem. Their solution? Gay orgy. This is Homoerotic Subtext, if it's even subtext.
- After the episode's Aesop about doing your part to keep the planet clean so that future generations will have a nice place to live, everyone starts cleaning up South Park to a musical montage, but when they realize that "This is gay. This is really gay. This is even gayer than when all the men were having sex with each other in a big pile.", they stop... and go back to the pile. Same as above, also might be misuse of Broken Aesop.
- Not just the men. Stan, Kyle, Cartman, and Kenny walk off-screen with them at the end of the episode... hinting at the possibility of watching or even joining. Same as above.
- Notice Randy acting as the spokesman during the TV interview. At least he had the decency to wipe his mouth first.. Kind of nattery.
- After the episode's Aesop about doing your part to keep the planet clean so that future generations will have a nice place to live, everyone starts cleaning up South Park to a musical montage, but when they realize that "This is gay. This is really gay. This is even gayer than when all the men were having sex with each other in a big pile.", they stop... and go back to the pile. Same as above, also might be misuse of Broken Aesop.
- "Tweek vs. Craig" is full of Ho Yay quotes. You can even see some in Tweek and Craig's overall behavior in the episode. Basically a ZCE. Note that Tweek and Craig used to have a folder here that I removed because it was either reliant on Shipping Goggles or scenes from after they were an Official Couple.
- "How could I resist an ass so great?" Asked by Craig after sumo-wrestling with Cartman, and the trainer tells him to resist. Probably counts, though the It Makes Sense in Context pothole's kind of silly when the entry gives us context anyway.
- "Le Petit Tourette" had Craig showing some admiration and affection towards Thomas, who has Tourette's Syndrome, which caused him to insult Dateline's Chris Hansen to his face. I think this counts if only because Craig talking to Thomas at the end reads like him asking him on a date.
Craig: Wow, you're the coolest kid in the world. If I could call Chris Hansen an "asshole-licking dickfart" to his face, I would be so happy.
Thomas: ...You would?
Craig: Can I just, like, hang out with you sometimes? Like, do your laundry maybe?- Craig even puts his hand on Thomas' shoulder during that last line. Guess Craig has a thing for twitchy blondes. The last line is kind of nattery (mainly because Craig wasn't with Tweek yet at the time of this episode) but otherwise I think it counts.
- Randy Marsh (Stan's dad) and Gerald Broflovski (Kyle's dad) masturbate together in a hot tub in the titular episode "Two Guys Naked in a Hot Tub". Afterwards, Randy is visibly uncomfortable while Gerald is especially clingy and wants to talk about it. Homoerotic Subtext, which gets lampshaded throughout the episode.
- From "Terrance and Phillip in Not Without My Anus":
Terrance: That Scott really hates us.
Phillip: Yes, perhaps he's homophobic.
(Silence)
Terrance: But we're not gay, Phillip.
Phillip: We're not? This is Ambiguously Bi / Homoerotic Subtext.- In "It Hits the Fan", Kyle mentions that the first male-on-male kiss on television was on none other than The Terrance and Phillip Show. Probably counts since we don't have any context to contradict it.
- In "Fat Camp", Kenny gave Howard Stern oral sex (off-screen). Not really even subtext.
- Bradley and Butters in "Cartman Sucks" (in addition to Cartman and Butters, as mentioned above). ZCE, also Bradley canonically has an unrequited crush on Butters.
- Mysterion, later revealed to be Kenny, seeks out Kyle for help by sneaking into Kyle's room through his window. Not really romantic at all.
- Stan and Kenny have their share, too. In "Kenny Dies", Stan is the most upset about Kenny's illness, and later Kyle tells Stan that Kenny's last words were "Where's Stan?" Maybe?
- "I Should Have Never Gone Ziplining". Kenny gives the other three boys herpes. He constantly insists that it's a cold sore, which it possibly is. It's because they shared a can of soda, not anything sexual. I think it's a reach.
- In "T.M.I.", Cartman very meticulously measures the penis sizes of the entire male student body. You know, so he can "make sure they're accurate". He even compliments Butters on his size. Yeah... Probably counts but I'm unsure if this is Ho Yay or just about Cartman being Ambiguously Gay.
- Butters is more than happy to share his "creamy goo" with all the "Sarcastaball" players in Colorado. Could count if the subtext applies to multiple boys.
- When Randy drinks it, he's able to immediately identify it as cum. Somehow. More about Randy alone being Ambiguously Bi.
- In South Park: The Stick of Truth, when the New Kid meets Karen at Kenny's house, he instantly becomes Facebook friends with her while she states that her "sister", Princess Kenny, thinks that the New Kid is cute. Probably a keeper.
- Matt and Trey themselves have a few moments during the DVD forward for "Cartman Gets an Anal Probe". Could violate NRLEP but Matt and Trey play caricatures of themselves in the commentary. Either way it's too general.
- Cartman and "Mr. Jefferson" in "The Jeffersons". Stan even has a dream about them almost making out! This is deliberate Homoerotic Subtext.
- Cartman and Scott Tenorman, especially in "201" when Scott begins grabbing Cartman... and getting awfully close to his face. This quickly goes into uncomfortable territory when it's discovered that Cartman and Scott are half-brothers. Uhh, I'm unsure about this. It's more an intimidation tactic.
- "A Million Little Fibers" has Gary and Minge. Yes, Oprah's asshole and vagina. Minge is fiercely protective of Gary, Gary calls him "Mingie", they try to run away to Paris together and end up Together in Death. It should not be as endearing as it is. Bizarrely, I think it counts.
- This exchange of words between Tweek's mother and Wendy's mother in "The Pandemic Special".
Mrs. Tweak: "I saw Wendy's mother not wearing a mask in the changing room at Ross."
Mrs. Testaburger: "The fuck are you doing spying on me in the changing room?!" Seems valid, since it's not explicitly called homoerotic (just weird) but it does sound like it.
Thoughts? And on a sidenote, HoYay.Channel Awesome is still a disaster.
Edited by mightymewtron on Feb 18th 2021 at 8:46:51 AM
I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.Hey I have a question on this entry in Gintama:
- After a night of drunkenness in episode 239 , Gintoki discovers he's slept with six women and... Hasegawa (Madao). It turns out to be one huge prank to get Gin to quit drinking. The twist at the end of episode 240 is that Hasegawa was the only one who wasn't in on it. Yes, Gintoki/Hasegawa may have actually taken place in canon.
Pretty sure it's not Ho Yay since it's intentional and I was thinking of moving it to Homoerotic Subtext but it's explicitly stated the two did the deed, so I think it's not subtext anymore. Does it still fall to the latter trope or is there another trope that fits better?
Read the letter Cricket!
Yeah, or Ambiguously Bi since although it's strongly implied, I don't think it's outright confirmed.
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Looked over it and most of those of those sound good.
Thank you. I'll move some examples to Homoerotic Subtext. For the record, a few of those were under debate, not to be deleted outright, but eh, if anybody has an argument to make for them they're free to make it.
(For one thing I'm reconsidering if the "Cartman Finds Love" example could've been valid since Cartman's intentions were not set up out of genuine attraction to Kyle, just a means to get Kyle away from his new girlfriend so she could date Token, but could still come across that way?)
Alright in that case, I will add it back, but add the context that it's not treated like Cartman's actually into Kyle, similar to the "Imaginationland" thing.
Edited by mightymewtron on Feb 23rd 2021 at 6:25:17 AM
I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.Yeah I think that one could go for either Ho Yay or Ambiguously Bi.
Does anyone mind helping me go through HoYay.Victorious? Because some don't seem to fit the definition to me, but I am not super familiar with this trope.
Edited by Bullman on Feb 25th 2021 at 11:40:41 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Bit late, but yeah. This page is also a mess. So many ZC Es.
Girls
- Les Yay: With a cast made up of mostly girls, and this being a Dan Schneider show, what would you expect? Natter. Delete.
- Jade, Tori and Cat all share a mammoth amount of Les Yay. From Season 2 onwards you might as well call Jade/Tori the Official Couple of Victorious. There's a reason they provide the image of this page. ZCE. Delete.
- Definitely the Fan-Preferred Couple. Jori has been one of the top trends on Twitter. ZCE. Delete.
- From the episode "The Wood": Keep.
- Tori: ...Where have you been?!Jade: In your room. You've got a lot of...things in there. *makes a flirtatious biting motion in Tori's direction*
- Not to mention they seem happy to stage a "girl fight" for The Wood producers ZCE. How are they happy? Delete.
- The very first episode of the show could qualify given that it has Jade making Tori get on her hands and knees and bark like a dog. Nothing about this is inherently homoerotic. Delete.
- Tori's locker houses a huge and particularly sexy magazine cutout of Katy Perry. And if you look closely, plastered on the inside of the door is a cutout of text. What does the text read? "I Kissed A Girl". To be fair it's one of her more famous songs, but finding that poster sexy seems to say more about the viewer than Tori. Leaning towards delete.
- The short film for "A Film by Dale Squires" implies the two female characters are lesbians. ZCE. Or a possible candidate for Ambiguously Gay depending on the nature of their interactions. Delete.
- Tori repeatedly tries to get Jade to hug her. ZCE. Hugs are not inherently homoerotic unless notable beyond that. Delete.
- Jade does hug her once… then pulls her onto the floor. Maybe?
- She likes it on the floor. She said so later in that episode. Not liking the natter approach. Possibly combine it with the above but it's lacking on context.
- Jade also hugs Tori in "Wok Star" and "Tori Goes Platinum", both times more affectionately than in the previous example. Keep.
- Jade does hug her once… then pulls her onto the floor. Maybe?
- Jade is happy to want to 'take off' Tori's dress in "Tori Gets Stuck". Keep, although it's low in context.
- This exchange seems suggestive in retrospect: This sounds more like Accidental Innuendo.
Tori: You looked up my medical records?Jade: I'll answer that right after you stick your face in those bush daisies.
- This exchange seems suggestive in retrospect: This sounds more like Accidental Innuendo.
- Helen Back Again has Cat, Tori and Jade being a family. ZCE. Doesn't really point out how it's homoerotic as opposed to other kinds of familial relationships. Delete.
- Even better, the lesson Sikowitz is trying to teach them is about Subtext. ...Okay? ZCE.
- Possibly in "Jade Gets Crushed" when Tori dresses up like Jade for Andre. Which raises the question: was Tori jealous that Andre was crushing on Jade instead of her or just a good friend trying to help Andre out of his dilemma... or was she sympathetic towards him harboring an impossible crush on Jade? The fact that she has easy access to a Jade costume and actually sang his Getting-Over-Her song with him, it's ambiguous, to say the least. Keep.
- Tori getting to frisk Jade in "A Christmas Tori." With more discussion about scissors. Jade even tells Tori, "Don't be shy," with a very flirty look on her face. Keep, but delete the scissors part if there's nothing to it besides mentioning them.
- After Jade says this, Tori looks at her with annoyed sarcasm, but then briefly looks down at her chest as if she's legitimately considering it. Keep.
- Jade definitely looked like she was enjoying that... Natter. Delete.
- Then she tells Tori to beg for her present... Dunno. Leaning towards delete.
- Not to mention earlier, with her favorite film being The Scissoring (*COUGH*) and swinging her scissors and starting at Tori excitedly when saying the protagonist of the film started her 'scissoring' rampage with "The Pretty Girl". Sounds like Accidental Innuendo at best.
- Just moments prior to the above frisking, Tori opens the door to find Jade waiting on the other side. Keep.
- Tori: What are you here for?Jade: You.
- The performance from Tori, Jade, and Cat at the end of A Christmas Tori is unfiltered OT3-fuel. Notable examples are the three girls putting their hands on the other's hips in a line, and Cat blowing Tori a kiss which she cutely "grabs" in the air before moving to flirtatiously poke at Jade's nose (earning a suggestive bite from Jade.) Keep, but trim the gushing.
- Tori says Jade looks hot in the "Freak the Freak Out" Slap photo gallery. Keep or move to Ambiguously Gay/Bi.
- When you read the online tie-in website The Slap (the school's social networking site), you get the distinct impression that Cat has a crush on Jade. Several exchanges of comments imply that Cat is exempt from Jade's hatred of most people, so the feelings may be mutual. Sounds like it would be a valid example if not for being ZCE.
- Tori and Jade, since it seems they also get along better in later episodes. But in terms of Beck, they can go Foe Yay. ZCE. Delete.
- Jade and Tori definitely seem to be growing a Like an Old Married Couple vibe as the show goes on, given possible lampshading in Helen Back Again and Car, Rain and Fire. Would count, but ZCE. Comment out or elaborate.
- In "The Birthweek Song", when Tori preforms the song at Trina's birthday party, there are several female dancers dancing in front of Trina, wearing short dresses, making them seem kind of like exotic dancers. Keep.
- Not to mention that Tori sits in her sisters lap during part of the song. Not unless she's sitting in a particularly homoerotic way. Delete.
- In "Jade Dumps Beck", Jade mentions to Tori all the reasons why she is confused that Beck wouldn't want her back, one of them being that she's "hot". Tori agrees. Keep or move to Ambiguously Gay/Bi.
- Tori feeling Jade's forehead, cheeks and collarbone, and being stopped with a "Having Fun There?" before getting to the chest, in "Survival of the Hottest" Keep.
- It becomes notable that the supposed rivals Tori and Jade get into each other's personal space A LOT during the show (even the vocally non-Touchy-Feely Jade)... without any complaints. Keep.
- Tori's performance in The Great Ping-Pong Scam contains some of this. ZCE. Delete.
- Add to that the fact that it's Jade's dress and Tori demanded she give it to her. Maybe? Still ZCE.
- And add to that Tori says the dress feels warm, insinuating that Jade is hot. Sum that up and mileage still may vary, but it is noteworthy as it is on the radar page. Radar page is being cleaned up so I have no idea.
- Not to mention in Tori Gets Stuck, Jade returns the Les Yay with wanting to keep Tori's dress warm until she gets back from the hospital. Keep but rewrite.
- Freak the Freak Out brims with this trope. Jade and Cat perform a duet with a suggestive song. When they employ Tori for a comeback performance, both girls join in with her on the stage. Then, there's Trina wrestling with Haley and Tara as the episode ends. Okay, but how is the song suggestive? How is the wrestling suggestive? Keep if they can be explained.
- Wok Star too, but more subtly. It's easy to see Jade's play and it's let me be who I am message to convince her disapproving father to let her pursue her life as an artist as a parallel for someone trying to gain acceptance or at least peace from their family's antagonism towards their sexuality. Not to mention Tori seems to be taking over the role as Jade's supportive beau as Beck sidelines for most of the episode. And then there was Jade and Tori's climatic hug. Not sure. Sounds like Shipping Goggles without further context.
- A caption written to a photo posted on TheSlap by Tori:Keep or move to Ambiguously Gay/Bi
"Jade looks hot in this pic, but don't tell her I said so. She doesn't like when I compliment her cuz it takes all the fun out of insulting me."
- In Prom Wrecker to get back at Jade, Tori licks the top of her punch can, and Jade still drinks it with a satisfied look on her face. This is one of 2 different episodes that show they don't really mind drinking after each other. Depends. Could be as much a sign of them just being slobs as an example of an Indirect Kiss.
- This
. Posted by Dan himself, described as a "weird little Victorious pic", to blow your minds. Link is dead, Schneider is a creep, and ZCE regardless.
- In iParty With Victorious Tori jumps on Jade's back in the awesome mash-up. Sounds like generic horseplay. Delete.
- Tori and Carly in the same episode, they seem quite flirty during their brief interactions and Tori says to her's (and Carly's) boyfriend "that Carly's really pretty, don't you think?". Keep.
- In "Ice Cream With Ke$ha", Trina practically drags Ke$ha up to her room after her performance. Ke$ha rushes down a couple of minutes later, telling Trina she's weird. What might Trina have done in her room with Ke$ha that would make Ke$ha call her weird ...? This is just Noodle Incident. Delete.
- Kesha seems to hit on Tori when she asks if Tori's cheekbones are real. Keep in mind, Ke$ha is openly bisexual. First sentence is ZCE. Second sentence is irrelevant. Delete.
- Jade giving Tori the once-over near the end of "The Breakfast Bunch". Keep but elaborate.
- Earlier in the episode, Jade is shown quite clearly to value Tori's association when she reacts with denial at Tori's threat to unfriend her on the Slap. The homoeroticism is not self-evident in this example. Delete.
- In "Andre's Horrible Girl", Jade posts a Slap status that says she's on a date...while she's actually hanging out with Cat. Just an attempt to make Beck jealous, or does she really consider it a date? Maybe? Could go either way with further context.
- And earlier in the same episode, Jade practically begs to hang out with Cat, and when Cat finally invites her to help dog-sit, Jade says "You owe me, baby-girl". Keep.
- By the time "Tori and Jade's Play Date" comes around (not sure how long it's been there) Tori is wearing a thinner, subtler version of Jade's trademark blue highlights. Between the justifying edit below and this, delete.
- Actually, Tori's wearing feather earrings.
- "Tori and Jade's Play Date" was pretty much written to break the Les Yay / Foe Yay meter. TWICE in the episode Tori practically rubbed her face against Jade's breasts, while playing Jade's husband. Remove the first sentence but keep.
- Jade yelling at Tori's butt during a deleted scene. Keep.
- They went on a date and called each other pretty. It's practically canon. Keep but remove the "it's practically canon" bit as Natter.
Jade: ...I guess...some people might say...that...from certain angles...you're...pretty.
- Tori remarks, "You (Jade) ARE pretty," sincerely and almost immediately both divert eye contact and resume eating like both are suddenly aware of how things are coming off. Keep.
- Even Jade saying that she likes when Tori's sad could count, since we don't know what she likes about seeing Tori sad. Sounds like Shipping Goggles. Delete.
- And while they were on that date, they were hit on by two guys they weren't in to, and ended up singing them a song called "Take a Hint", which basically seems like Sorry, I'm Gay in song form. That just sounds like a standard "I'm just not into you" bit. Delete.
- Watch how Jade looks at Tori's specific "suitor". She has a similiar irritability towards all of Tori's (one-episode) boyfriends... Keep.
- It's possibly implied the two obnoxious guys courting Jade and Tori perceive them as a legitimate couple on a date, but obviously having few restraints still hit on them anyway. Sounds like Fan Wank. Delete.
- Jade appears to slap Tori's rear-end during the performance of their song. Not to mention later she's licking her lips while walking towards Tori. Keep.
- After "Tori and Jade's Play Date" while the credits were rolling, there was a shot of Liz Gillies about to kiss Victoria's face, while the latter was still dressed in drag. Keep or possibly move to Sweet on Polly Oliver.
- At the end of the play, right before they hugged, look at Tori and Jade's faces and tell me they aren't thinking about kissing each other. Oh, lovely. Gushing AND Shipping Goggles. Delete.
- The whole episode could be called "Les Yay: The Episode".
- A video on theslap.com has Jade and Cat in bed together in their pajamas and under the covers. The camera is turned off at one point, after which Cat has somehow convinced Jade that a bunny could survive being stepped on by an elephant. The homoeroticism is not self-evident. For all we know it could be a typical chaste sleepover. Delete.
- There's a second video in that series. Jade slept over at Cat's again, and is very handsy when Cat wakes her up; Cat doesn't seem to mind at all. It is also said that Cat's brother is wearing Jade's bra, which makes one wonder why Jade isn't wearing it... Keep the first part, delete the second.
- Jade actually attacks Cat out of panic and they're both screaming. They cut away quickly, so perhaps some Slap-Slap-Kiss took place before they cut back...
- There's a second video in that series. Jade slept over at Cat's again, and is very handsy when Cat wakes her up; Cat doesn't seem to mind at all. It is also said that Cat's brother is wearing Jade's bra, which makes one wonder why Jade isn't wearing it... Keep the first part, delete the second.
- Jade's Friendly Tickle Torture to Tori in "April Fool's Blank". The homoeroticism is not self-evident above platonic readings of this. Delete.
- Jade announced plans on The Slap to go a 'creepy abandoned mall' on the weekend and Tori was the only one who expressed interest in joining her. Which would mean she and Jade would be all alone in a relatively secluded area for probably an hour at minimum. That either shows a great amount of trust on Tori's part or something else ... Example itself just provided a plausible platonic alternative and the rest is Fan Wank. Delete.
- They do seem to mention each other constantly on their slap updates, be it in a positive or (mostly from Jade) a negative light. Safe to say both of them are on each other mind's quite a lot... Maybe keep as a kind of Foe Yay Shipping.
- Tori outright refuses Beck's attempt to kiss her in "Tori Goes Platinum", she says she doesn't want to ruin her friendship with Jade but one could wonder if Tori likes Jade more than Beck. Depends on if Jade also has feelings for Beck, but maybe.
- Jade didn't want to take an opportunity to sing in front of millions of people from a friend or whatever she and Tori are. Not sure what this is trying to say.
- Also from that episode, Tori calls Jade pretty again. Jade seems pleased to hear it. Keep.
- Both Tori and Jade seem confused as to what their relationship is. Keep.
- Another possible bit from when Tori and Jade are talking at the end, she is very careful and nervous when approaching her, fair to say people can be nervous around other people they like. And what was the "the" in "It's a little tight around the-"? Keep.
- Jade wearing Tori's coat when she makes her way back out to the theater's seats. Sharing clothes isn't all that unusual. Delete.
- Possibly between Tori and Ponnie in "Crazy Ponnie". Ponnie has a Tori doll, offers to share a bathroom stall with Tori for lunch, touches Tori's bellybutton for a decent amount of time at one point and is generally obsessed with Tori. Tori certainly tried to be at least friends with Ponnie before Ponnie went all crazy on her and was similarly obsessed with Ponnie's existence and proving she (Tori) was sane. Aside from maybe the bellybutton none of this sounds self-evidently homoerotic. Delete.
- This gem from Tori's slap update during Wanko's Warehouse: Keep.
- "Andre is Driving us all to Wanko's! Cat is sitting by me. She smells GOOD :)"
- Cat and Jade get a lot of time together in Opposite Date. Apparently they regularly hang out together. Plus the sub/dom vibe between them is thick enough to cut with a knife. Nothing self-evidently homoerotic about the former, and the latter is ZCE. Delete.
- In Three Girls and a Moose, Cat and Jade are supposed to be in direct competition over Moose. However, they seem pretty willing to work together against Tori, and at one point they both go see him at Karaoke Dokie, even though Jade could just as easily leave Cat at the Vega house. I don't see any self-evident homoeroticism here. Delete.
- The three girls being in competition but Cat and Jade teaming up to keep Tori from Moose could easily be taken as any of the three pairs, depending on how you read their motivations. See above, and also Natter.
- When Tori points at herself during Jade's perfoemance in Tori Fixes Beck and Jade, thinking she's being called to before realizing it's Beck with a faded smile. She's still seen clapping and singing along afterwards, so while your mileage may vary this could be an example of I Want My Beloved to Be Happy and/or Did Not Get the Girl. Comes off as Shipping Goggles Alternative Character Interpretation. Delete.
- Given the jealous tension shown between them at the end of the next episode, it's far from inconceivable. Natter. Delete.
- Jade and Tori spend the final episode Victori-Yes together. Jade lies about having plans to bake pizza with Tori to get out of her date with Beck, but even though he'd most likely have no way of knowing if she just stayed home, she actually sticks to her word and spends most of her evening at Tori's house while Tori actually attempts to make homemade pizza for them. Nothing especially homoerotic about this. It just sounds like "sisters before misters". Delete.
- As evidenced here
, Tori frequently wore a certain necklace up until Tori and Jade's Playdate, when Jade begins to wear it. The homoeroticism isn't especially self-evident. For all we know she gave it to her as a friend. Delete.
- In Cell Block Tori sits on Cat for an extended period of time and spanks her, then later Jade joins Tori in sitting on Cat Keep but fix punctuation.
- In "Brain Squeezers" An angry Jade grabs Tori's shirt at the chest-level... and appears to peek down it for a quick second. Keep.
- Watch where Tori's eyes seem to frequently wander to whenever she's talking to Jade face-to-face, and where Jade's eyes often go when she's standing behind Tori Keep and fix punctuation.
- It's worth noting just how much Jade tends to (begrudgingly) listen to Tori. In Cat, Rain, and Fire, Tori tells Jade to drive the 3 of them to San Diego and Jade obeys. In The Hambone King, she tells her friends to turn on the TV to check the news and Jade volunteers "because she wants to". And in Three Girls and a Moose, when she tells Jade shut up, she immediately stops talking and even averts her eyes. '''
The only one I'll contest is that Jade randomly wearing Tori's coat could have shippy undertones — Her Boyfriend's Jacket is a trope for a reason. (The necklace one doesn't count to me due to the lack of similar connotations and the likelier reason of Prop Recycling. I'm assuming in the other example, Jade wears the same jacket Tori wore in the same episode.) However, it might be too subtle to count.
Edited by mightymewtron on Mar 7th 2021 at 3:09:39 PM
I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
I'm aware of that, but it's heavily execution-dependent and needs things like framing and the like to validate it, while that entry is too barebones to fit the bill. To use a phrase I tend to abuse here, in its current state, the homoerotic aspect doesn't come off as especially self-evident relative to alternative nonromantic possibilities.
For the rest of that page:
Guys
- The constant running joke about the gang confusing Robbie's Gender Not this. Delete.
- Robbie's obsession with how good Beck looks. Would keep but it's ZCE.
- While watching Beck fix his car, Robbie comments on how well Beck's jeans fit. Complete with hand motions. Beck really doesn't seem to mind, either. Possible keep.
- Beck saying to Robbie, "Talk to Daddy", during "A Film by Dale Squires". Possible keep, but lacking in further context.
- In "Sleepover with Sikowitz", Robbie's role for Beck involved invading others' personal space. Think about it. If I have to think about it, it's not a good example. Delete.
- Rex excitedly calling Ryder Daniels "Hot!" in "Beggin' on Your Knees". Ryder is not the only one called that by Rex. Keep or move to Ambiguously Gay/Bi.
- Or the picture caption where Robbie wants a copy of the dress Beck wore in "Beck falls for Tori." Possible keep, though I'm missing some context here.
- At the end of "Stuck in an RV" rapper Fat Biscuit's crew member says "we had some times in there." Fat Biscuit replies "Don't talk about it". It be a reference to multiple things from drugs to other things. Sounds like your typical Noodle Incident. Delete.
- The ballet class until the girl comes in, then it goes in the opposite direction. ZCE. Delete.
- Robbie about Andre's skin in "iParty with Victorious" ZCE. Delete.
- From "Jade Gets Crushed" Accidental Innuendo at best. Delete.
- Robbie: *to Andre* Nice fingering!
- From "Andre's Horrible Girl" Maybe? The example is badly written though.
- Beck:*about him and Robbie*" WE have a thing.....At a place." Robbie took him seriously and was rather excited, and apparently put on his fancy shoes "for nothing" after finding out Beck was lying to get them out of something. Not to mention they later arrive together with Robbie's fly down...
- In "The Breakfast Bunch", when Beck is straightening Robbie's hair, Robbie reaches back to try and hug him. Nothing self-evidently homoerotic about a hug without further context. Delete.
- In "Andre's Horrible Girl", both Beck and Robbie show up together where Cat's babysitting to help her fix the guitar, and Robbie looks especially annoyed, as if this "interrupted" something. Jade remarks that Robbie has his fly down. What could those two guys have possibly been doing? Keep.
- In "Car, Rain, and Fire" Keep.
- Andre (to Robbie): Those flowers had better be for Beck!
- Reck does seem to be one of the more popular shippings... Natter. Delete.
- This gem from "April Fool's Blank": Keep.
- Robbie (to Tori): I think we should kiss!Andre: Alright, come here.Robbie: Not you!
- When Sikowitz asks Sinjin and Burf to spy on Tori and the gang, Sinjin says: "It's you and me baby" and clicks his tongue at Burf suggestively. Keep or move to Ambiguously Gay/Bi.
- Beck hosts a cooking video on The Slap where after every food he prepares a Beck-crazed suitor runs up. Doesn't make clear that they're male, and if they are this sounds more like Even the Guys Want Him, not Ho Yay. Delete.
- One Sikowitz's acting exercises somehow manages this even though the people involved are a guy and a girl: Beck is playing a fast food customer and Jade is playing the male restaurant worker who blatantly hits on Beck. Not an example. Delete.
- Sinjin and Burf are strongly implied to be in a relationship, and Burf seems to have a crush on Robbie. Might be an example but it's lacking on context.
- In the episode "The Slap Fight", after Tori asks why Robbie's in the Janitor's closet, This sounds more like a pun that Ho Yay. Delete.
- Sinjin: Hey, I don't ask people why they're in closets'''
- In the final episode Victori-Yes, Beck and Sinjin go to a drag race together, an activity that Beck planned as a date with Jade. Though he was reluctant to spend his evening with Sinjin, he finds himself really enjoying the company. Beck's actor Avan Jogia tweeted after the episode that "Binjin" was endgame. Fair enough. Keep, though the last bit comes across as closer to Trivia.
- Pretty much all of Sinjin's dialogue in that episode sounded like a double entendre. If he says it in a suggestive way, then keep.
Sinjin: Drag race?Beck: Yeah...Sinjin: Well that just turned my light green.
- "I'll fist to that."
- Pretty much all of Sinjin's dialogue in that episode sounded like a double entendre. If he says it in a suggestive way, then keep.
- A post from Sinjin: Keep, though this might also be Mistaken for Gay.
- Sinjin: Just got back from my man-date with Beck!!! We had a great time. I hope we can do it again soon!Beck: Yeah, any time you want…. as long as you promise to never call it a "Man-Date".
Edited by AlleyOop on Mar 7th 2021 at 3:28:30 PM
Alley: Sorry for the late response, but I agree with your assessments on the Victorious examples.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup threadFrom HoYay.Yu Gi Oh ZEXAL:
- Near the end of episode 80 Alit imagines Yuma as an Angel and as a giant head over the earth just as he did with Kotori earlier in the episode. Also crosses into Foe Yay considering Alit is a Barian Lord. The subtext is even blatant in episode 85 where Alit essentially defects from the Barian side simply because he wants to duel Yuma again.
- In the video game Yu-Gi-Oh! ZEXAL World Duel Carnival, the earlier-mentioned Alit fuel is amped up to eleven when the player defeats him and he immediately transfers his emotions from some unnamed girl to YOU. He begins flirting and asking to know everything about you like a lovesick schoolgirl. Except that in this game, there's no option to be female.
Okay, I've seen the stuff with Alit, including from the video games, and there's no way this isn't intentional. But where should it go?
Edited by Oshawott337 on Mar 11th 2021 at 9:55:08 AM
"Let’s see who’s stronger: someone that has something to protect, or someone that has nothing to lose."This example from HoYay.Granblue Fantasy strikes me as misuse, I just want to double check.
- The official scenario writer for all the What Makes The Sky Blue related events has confirmed that Lucifer and Sandalphon’s relationship encompasses all the forms of love he wanted to write, including romantic love, family love and friendship.
Bringing up the following example from The Avengers: United They Stand:
- Ho Yay: The huge bromance between Hawkeye and Wonder Man, with Hawkeye calling Wonder Man "the only real friend [he'd] ever had." Not to mention the fact that it's a flashback to that scene that snaps Vision!Wonder Man out of Ultron's programming, rather than anything relating to his love interest Scarlet Witch.
It sounds like it'd be a pretty good example if it had just a little more context.
The last point about breaking him out of his brainwashing is a pretty common love interest trope, especially since it works more effectively than his canon love interest.
Edited by AlleyOop on Mar 21st 2021 at 3:37:13 PM
The Rarijack section on My Little Pony: Equestria Girls say that it has support from the writers without citation.
"Listen up, Marina, because this is SUPER important. Whatever you do, don't eat th“ “DON'T EAT WHAT?! Your text box ran out of space!”That's Word of Saint Paul. Unless the actual showrunner says they are a couple it isn't Homoerotic Subtext. Regardless, I'd say we cut that line.

WRT the cleanup of the Supernatural page, I'm going to move some of the deleted Ho Yay Wincest entries into Incest Subtext, since the point is that Yay Shipping happens regardless of if there's canon evidence or subtext for it, and stuff like them being soulmates is definitive canon.
However, I do want to get input on whether or not the Wincest entries should be tied to Incest Yay Shipping.
Edited by lapistier on Feb 17th 2021 at 9:33:44 AM