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I agree with your assessment of the first two bullet points. I'd have to rewatch the rest of the V4/5 scenes to evaluate them, and I haven't seen V6 yet.
Since I realized I bit off more than I could chew with trying to cleanup the Destiel folders for Supernatural since there's so damn much of it, I'm going to work on fixing some of the other other folders and maybe try again with them another time.
Going to hack away at the also-sizeable and similarly plagued Sam/Dean folder in the meantime:
- With the Supernatural writers thinking that the real love story is between Sam and Dean, and Jensen Ackles and Jared Padalecki admitting they've read "Wincest", can you blame the fans for noting every bit of subtext between the boys? Natter-y, but perhaps some useful context here. Keep for now, or migrate to Relationship Writing Fumble.
- Eric Kripe called Supernatural "The epic love story of Sam and Dean". The actual, original showrunner's words. Doesn't get much more ho yay than that. 'Delete. This is Trivia.
- 1.01, “Pilot.” Right from the get-go these brothers had a lot of homoerotic energy going. Dean breaks into Sam’s dorm and tackles him to the ground with a lazy smile and an “Easy, tiger.” After recovering from the shock Sam flips them over so that he’s on top and Dean is on bottom, with Dean still grinning all the while. Keep. Self-evident.
- 1.02, “Wendigo.” Dean is so happy to have Sam back that he offers to let Sam drive the Impala. Sam, shocked, comments that he’s never done that before. Delete. Nothing about this indicates it as homoerotic.
- Later when they’re beaten and bloodied, Sam gazes a little too long at his brother before announcing that he’ll be the one to drive. Keep. Self-evident and lampshaded by an actor.
Misha: [Take a drink] every time Sam and Dean stare longingly into each other's eyes
.
- Later when they’re beaten and bloodied, Sam gazes a little too long at his brother before announcing that he’ll be the one to drive. Keep. Self-evident and lampshaded by an actor.
- The third episode in the entire series marks the beginning of Dean Winchester having no concept of personal space around his brother
. Delete for ZCE. Checking the link shows that it does work, but they're weak examples that read of blatant Shipping Goggles.
- 1.04, "Phantom Traveler." Dean's fear of flying has him virtually clinging to Sam for most of the episode. Delete. Obvious non-Ho Yay alternative notwithstanding, it's not very self-evident otherwise.
- 1.07, "Hook Man." While Sam is explaining to Dean what he's found out about their case, a male party-goer openly sizes us Sam in the background. Dean watches him until he's out of the shot, then puts a hand on Sam's back to lead him away. After which we see the guy come back in the shot, take a look at Sam and Dean, then roll his eyes and leave. The implications are hilarious. This is intentional and should be moved to a more appropriate in-universe trope like Mistaken for Gay.
- Sam tells Dean in 1.16 "Shadow" that he would do anything for him while they share lingering eye contact. Keep. Self-evident.
- In the first season they would sometimes have the tendency to shove the other against something while getting really close when pissed. I can sort of see it, but it's not very well-written to be self-evident. Delete for that reason.
- In season 2 episode "Playthings" Sam ends up drunk and clings to Dean to the extent he looks like he's about to kiss him until Dean slaps him away. There's a similar thing in "Sam, Interrupted" a drugged Sam gets his face quite close to Dean's then touches Dean's nose and chirps "Boop!" And Dean just watches him do this staying there. Keep. Self-evident.
- The whole atmosphere of "Playthings" is sensual, tense to the point where audiences were expecting something sexual to happen. Delete. ZCE.
- In 2.05, "Simon Said", when Dean and Sam are sitting in the Metallicar, Dean mumbles something that sounds suspiciously like he is calling Sam "babe". Delete. The way it's written makes it self-evident, but without the original context to compare to it, and it's speaking of which it's not actually that clear in the original scene, it just reads of Shipping Goggles.
- Dean: Babe, you look like you're sucking on a lemon.
- In 2.09, "Croatoan" a virus that turns people rabid and murderous is infecting people. While trying to get people to safety Sam is infected with the virus. When an officer tries to kill Sam before he can fully turn Dean tells him he'll be "dead before you hit the ground." Dean offers to let the remaining survivors leave in the Impala while he locks himself in a room with Sam and waits for him to turn so they can die together. Delete. Requires too much Shipping Goggles to see a homoerotic reading over the far more obvious reading of "duh, he's his only family".
- 2.21, “All Hell Breaks Loose, Part One” In this show the heroes are more concerned with their Heterosexual Life-Partner than with any Love Interests. Especially the moment in "All Hell Breaks Loose" where the hellgate opens: Sam, Ellen and Bobby try and shut it; Dean gets pinned to a grave by the Yellow-Eyed Demon, and Sam immediately goes to save his brother, leaving Ellen (who is a woman, but not a Love Interest) to try and shut one door by herself. Keep. Self-evident.
- 2.22, In "All Hell Breaks Loose: Part Two", after Sam dies in his arms, Dean goes almost catatonic with grief and denial. He refuses to bury Sam’s body, choosing instead to stare at it silently. Bobby gently reminds Dean that they still have to save the world or it will end, to which Dean angrily shouts to just let it (this would be the first of many times Dean chooses Sam over the world). Not sure. That is a trope commonly associated with romantic relationships, but brotherhood provides an obvious alternative motive, and it doesn't make it clear how it's homoerotic in particular above other interpretations.
- Crazy with grief and desperation Dean sells his soul to a crossroads demon so that he can bring Sam back to life. See above.
- 4.01 “Lazarus Rising.” The reunion between the brothers when Dean comes back from Hell is so emotional. The brothers hug tightly and Dean’s face is fierce with determined emotion. Delete. The homoerotic reading is not self-evident.
- In season 3 we saw Dean being tortured in Hell while wearing Sam's amulet. Back on earth Sam was wearing Dean’s Samulet since he left. That means that Dean's soul was wearing the amulet. This gives support to the theory that Sam and Dean are soulmates, tied to one another. Delete. It's strongly lacking in context, and besides, soulmates don't have to be romantic.
- This is also the introduction of Ruby who, after witnessing the above display, asks “So, are you two like… together?” Intentional, move to the main page as Mistaken for Gay or Ship Tease.
- 4.03, “In the Beginning” Dean learns that he and Sam are named after their (married) maternal grandparents, Samuel and Deanna Winchester. Keep. Self-evident, even though I'd point out that isn't actually all that uncommon in the real world.
- 4.04 “Metamorphosis.” Travis asks Sam if he’s still a mathlete, to which Sam bashfully says no. Dean preens for the attention Sam is getting and pats him affectionately on the back and proudly tells Travis that Sam “sure is.” Delete. Though self-evident, the way the entry is written reads heavily of gushing and Shipping Goggles.
- 4.05, “Monster Movie.” The look of exasperated affection and joy on Sam’s face when Dean takes simple pleasures in food really can’t be beat. Delete. Not self-evident.
- Actually, Sam and Dean spend most of “Monster Movie” smiling and staring at one another, which is a helpful reprieve from the star-crossed angst of the previous season. Delete. Though more self-evident than the example above, it's not enough, and Nattery to boot.
- 4.06 “Yellow Fever.” Despite being cursed by a buruburu and thinking Sam (and himself) are crazy for hunting things that kill other things, Dean desperately clings to his brother as a lifeline as he descends further and further into mindless fear. Delete. Again, obvious non-homoerotic reading aside, entry does not make clear the homoerotic reading clear.
- 4.08, “Wishful Thinking,” and that oh so delightfully reliant brother-staring
. Delete or rewrite to tone down the gushing and make it less ZCE.
- 4.17 "It's A Terrible Life," Dean's white-collar alter ego Dean Smith immediately assumes he's being checked out and hit on by Sam Wesson. Intentional and should be moved to Mistaken for Gay.
- Dean: Save it for the health club, pal.
- They tend to bring the ridiculously stupid crazy sometimes when it comes to each other. When Sam died, Dean making a year-long deal to bring him back was possibly the stupidest thing that he could possibly do. Ever! And in "Time Is On My Side", Sam is willing to make himself and his previously-suicidal brother immortal monsters just so that Dean wouldn't leave him, which is messed up in so many ways. Delete. The homoeroticism isn't self-evident above other motives for codependence.
- And isn't it just a bit odd that they keep getting compared to self-destructive, clingy, passionate couples? In "Nightshifter", Hendricksen called them "Bonnie and Clyde" and in "Time Is On My Side", Dean compared them to "Sid and Nancy". Veritas even tells Sam that he and Dean are Mallory and Mickey, the killer romantic couple of Natural Born Killers Move to Homoerotic Subtext.
- In "Sam, Interrupted", Dr. Fuller separates the brother because, quote, "To be frank, the relationship you have with your brother seems dangerously codependent", to which Dean immediately looks upset. Keep. Self-evident.
- Sam and Dean really are so codependent, it's a wonder they even know how to function, really Delete. Natter.
Dean: "You almost died there. I mean, what would I have—"
- More so, when Sam asked Dean to kill him so he wouldn't kill anyone else, Dean tells him that he'd rather die than do that. Keep and fold into the first bullet.
- Sam and Dean really are so codependent, it's a wonder they even know how to function, really Delete. Natter.
- In the early seasons, the brothers are very touchy-feely, especially Dean, almost to the point of a Relationship Writing Fumble. Of course Dean touches Sam to save him from various bad guys, and also supports him when he's injured or having a vision. He also "checks" on Sam by touching him after fights, touches him to comfort him, and often claps him in the shoulder or chest as a greeting or parting gesture. Sam, in the earlier seasons, tended to touch Dean less often, but never shook Dean away from him. By Seasons 3 and 4, however, he's pretty well constantly terrified of Dean dying, and starts grabbing at and touching Dean almost as often as Dean goes for him. They even touch each other's faces and legs, which isn't really common physical affection for any siblings, let alone emotionally repressed ones that (at that point) would never be caught dead just hugging each other. Keep. Self-evident, but could use some severe Natter-trimming.
- 4.14, “Sex and Violence,” one of the Wincestier episode of a very Wincesty series. The brothers hunting a Siren, which seduces men by reading their minds and turning into the perfect woman for them (plus a little bit of love saliva). It inevitably gets to the Winchester brothers by becoming a male, if not particularly hot, FBI agent who offers to be Dean's new little brother if he kills Sam. (For the record, it's Hand Waved in the episode by saying that the siren gives its victims whatever they desire most. For most men, it is a beautiful woman. For Dean, it was "a little brother who looks up to him.") Delete. This is almost entirely fan meta and gushing, not to mention it sabotages itself with an overwhelmingly more obvious platonic alternative.
- This bears repeating; in an episode in which the Monster of the Week was reading the innermost thoughts of various men and morphing into whatever their deepest desire indicated (and, for every previous male victim, manifesting as a hot stripper), Dean's ideal, the person by whom he is most easily seduced, is revealed to be... wait for it... an idealized version of Sam. This from the same Dean Winchester who does all in his power to be viewed as a womanizing neanderthal. And ignoring the fact that the Siren later draws Sam into his thrall as well, and forces the Winchesters to fight to the death over his love. Yeah. See above. Burn this entry with holy fire.
- As well as the fact that in every previous incident, the stripper/Siren seduced the male victim and proceeded to convince him to murder the other woman in his life; in Dean's case, the Siren manifests as Dean's ideal male companion and then sics him on Sam. See above.
- The siren was being an idealized version of Sam. Sam himself isn't perfect, no one in the victim's life is, so you can say he took the "blueprint" of Sam and turned it up to 100. You could sort of say the siren was younger!Sam and adult!Sam in the same body: the mindless big brother hero worship Sam held for Dean when he was younger, combined with the proud man who can match Dean step for step in the present. See above.
- 4.18, "The Monster at the End of This Book." It finally gets to the point where the brothers actually comment on this after reading fan comments on the internet (of a book series inexplicably written about their adventures). In-universe example. Move it there.
- Dean: There are Samgirls and Deangirls, and... what's a slash fan?Sam: As in... Sam-slash-Dean. Together.Dean: Like, together-together?Sam: Yeah.Dean: They do know we're brothers, right? ...That's just sick.
- In "Dark Side of the Moon", the look on Dean's face when Sam is shot right before his eyes (and the subsequent anger and request for death with a bone-chilling threat afterward), are one of the many scenes that silently showcase how co-dependent they are on each other. Keep. Rather ZCE, but self-evident enough.
- Later in "Dark Side of the Moon", Dean tells Sam him leaving for Stanford was one of the worst nights of his life Delete. Not self-evident.
- Also in "Dark Side of the Moon", they share a heaven because they are "soulmates". Ash explains the concept of Heaven to them, saying that they have "Winchesterland" and he has "Ashland", and "Most people can't leave their own private Idahos", except for him, because he came up with a series of equations which allowed him to traverse other people's heavens. He says that "A few people share, special cases, whatnot." Dean asks what he means, and Ash says "Oh, you know, like soulmates." There is then a five second awkward pause in which Ash stares at Sam and Dean, and they determinedly don't look at each other. Keep. While being soulmates is not automatic self-evident Ho Yay, their awkward reactions are.
- Dean: Wait. If I’m in heaven, then where’s Sam? ("Dark Side of the Moon")Dean: [waking up after being strangled by Azazel and sees Sam] So I'm dead? This is heaven? ("Exile on Mainstreet")
- In 5.18, "Point of No Return", Zachariah lamented that Sam and Dean would "rather save each other's sweet bacon than save the planet" Keep. Self-evident.
- In 5.22, "Swan Song", the brothers’ love for each other is so strong, it breaks the hold Lucifer has over Sam. That makes it the love that literally saved the world. This is even more powerful when you realize this was actually intended to be the finale of the show before CW asked for it to be renewed and replaced showrunner Eric Kripke with current executive producer Sera Gamble. Keep, though all this shows was the magnitude and plot-relevance, but nothing about the categorization of the love. Remove the production natter though.
- Dean: [while being beaten to near-death by Lucifer possessing Sam's body] Sam, it's okay. It's okay. I'm here. I'm here. I'm not gonna leave you.
- Also in "Swan Song", after Castiel warns Dean the only thing he'll see if he goes to Sam is Michael killing him, he firmly replies he won't let Sam die alone. Delete. The homoeroticism isn't self-evident above alternatives.
- Even after being given a sneak peek of exactly what Lucifer is capable of when he makes Castiel explode and snaps Bobby’s neck with only a flick of his wrist, Dean still stays and calls out to Sam to reassure him he won’t leave him. Keep. Self-evident.
- In "The Real Ghost Busters", a gay couple admires Sam and Dean's relationship so much they model their own after it. Move to Ship Tease or Mistaken for Gay.
- Again with parallels, in "Goodbye Stranger", Castiel wants Sam to protect Meg who he reveals he has feelings for and doesn't want to get hurt, and Dean wants Sam to stay outside to "guard" Meg because he doesn't want him to get hurt either. Delete. It's parallels wank, and while it may have been moving in that direction at the time, Castiel and Meg don't end up going anywhere, and besides it's later revealed Castiel is canonically in love with Dean, not Meg.
- Lest we forget Sam referred to Dean as "a male model type" in "The Man Who Knew Too Much". Keep. Self-evident.
- Dean seems all too comfortable to read porn with Sam around. Delete. It's lacking in context, requires Shipping Goggles to see as homoerotic, and besides the following bullets are better examples.
- In the episode "Goodbye Stranger", Dean finds vintage porn and proudly shows it to Sam before sitting down right across from him and reading it. See above. Combine this with the above as the above is ZCE without it.
- Sam helpfully offers to leave the room while Dean has his, ahem, personal time with "Miss October", to which Dean says he could use 10 minutes. Then raises his eyebrows and smiles suggestively at Sam as he gets up and leaves. It's even funnier when you remember Dean's stern words to Castiel about it being "unacceptable" to talk about porn with dudes in the room. Sam is always the exception. Keep. This time it's self-evident.
- In the episode "Goodbye Stranger", Dean finds vintage porn and proudly shows it to Sam before sitting down right across from him and reading it. See above. Combine this with the above as the above is ZCE without it.
- While Dean Winchester had many rules he lives by, Sam always seems to be the exception. Delete. These are general and redundant with some of the above.
- In "Children Shouldn't Play with Dead Things", Dean says "What's dead should stay dead!" but sells his soul to bring Sam back from the dead.
- Dean regularly chastises Castiel for watching him sleep, but begrudgingly let Sam do it while he was soulless.
- Dean always firmly stated he didn't pray or beg, but did just that in order to keep Sam safe.
- Dean once said that men shouldn't watch porn with other men in the room, but has read porn as well as watched hentai anime while Sam was in the room.
- In the latter, he poured Sam a cup and beckoned him to come over. While he was watching it.
- Can we count all the times Sam has chosen Dean over everything else? The Man Who Knew Too Much, The French Mistake, The Girl Next Door, etc. Delete. Gushing and redundant with the above.
- Pam asked Sam and Dean if they wanted to have a threesome with her. Pam is psychic. Delete. In context this is clearly a more mundane A Threesome Is Hot joke, and Dean objects to Sam being there.
- In "Changing Channels", Sam is transformed into the Impala and Dean goes to search the car for holy oil. After a moment, Sam tells Dean he's really uncomfortable. Dean has his hand in the trunk of the Impala. Keep. Although it's more of a slapstick joke, it's self-evident.
- If that wasn't obvious enough, when Gabriel later asks where Dean got the holy oil, he replies "You might say we pulled it out of Sam's ass". See above.
- Who could forget the line in "Mystery Spot": "Sammy, I get all tingly when you take control like that." So blatantly Ho Yay-tastic that it's a wonder it got through the censors. Keep. See above but remove Natter.
- And that line becomes a lot more poignant in light of "The Song Remains The Same", where their father tells their mother "I love when you get bossy". Delete. Natter and parallels wank.
- In "Bugs" where they have been Mistaken for Gay customers looking for a new house for the second time; rather than explain that they're brothers again, Dean runs with it, calling Sam honey and smacking him on the ass. In-universe example.
- Pointing out how weirdly close the brothers are to each other is basically a competitive sport among the minor characters on the show. Most of these qualify as in-universe Ship Tease or Homoerotic Subtext.
- Michael: First…we talk. Then I fix your darling little Sammy.
- When Sam is knocked out by Castiel breaking the Hell-wall, Balthazar calls him "Sleeping Beauty" and asks if Dean stole any kisses. See above.
- Two guys filming a documentary in "Bitten" wonder if Sam and Dean have an office romance going on, of which the latter confirms he sees it too. See above.
- In "Coyote's Kiss" of the Supernatural book, Dean jokingly asks Sam if he'd miss him too much to go on without him. /tumblr_lt8c8ysTcn1qg6i2jo2_500.jpg Sam immediately looks away
. Keep. Self-evident.
- In "Appointment in Samarra", Dean tells Death he wants to bring Sam's soul back instead of Adam's, even though he acknowledges that it's "damaged" (try "flayed to the raw nerve"). Delete. ZCE.
- In "Bloodlust", after Gordon refers to Sam as "Sammy", Sam coolly tells him that Dean is the only one that gets to call him that, after which we get a reaction shot of Dean smiling smugly to himself. Delete. Not that unusual.
- In "Clap Your Hands if You Believe", Lisa tells Dean she knew it was over between them the moment Sam walked through the door. Keep. Self-evident.
- A funny scene from "Clap Your Hands If You Believe", Dean is freaking out about being abducted by aliens, and a Soulless!Sam tries to fake-empathize with him by resting his hand on Dean's thigh and looking into his eyes. Dean's rattled by this, but more because he knows Sam's soulless than because, like, his brother looks like he's coming onto him. Keep. Self-evident.
- Dean only went to Lisa because Sam begged him too. Later we find out that Dean was deeply depressed, developed an alcohol addiction, and became suicidal without him. Keep. Self-evident.
- The angel Zachariah described Sam and Dean as "erotically co-dependent." The only other way to interpret that is as a way of turning Adam against Sam and Dean. Keep but move to Homoerotic Subtext.
- In "Shut Up, Dr. Phil", after an episode of marital hijinks between two pissed-off witches, Sam attempts to wind up the case by turning Maggie and Don's tempestuous eight-hundred-year marriage into a metaphor for his and Dean's relationship. Dean attempts to shrug it off by saying that he and Sam have nothing to work through, but Sam and the viewers know better. Keep. Self-evident.
- During the final moments of Season Four, Sam and Dean react to Lucifer's imminent appearance by blindly clinging on to one another. Delete. A cling out of fear isn't inherently homoerotic.
- Even soulless!Sam felt the innate love that Sam had for Dean. When Dean hugged him, he smiled, not out of any raw feeling, but because he knew that was the instinctive feeling that went along with it. Like "Yes, this is how this goes". Delete. Too much Shipping Goggles meta wank.
- Then there's this gem in "The End": Keep. Self-evident.
- Dean: We're not stronger when we're together — I think we're weaker. Because what we have — love, family, whatever it is — they are always gonna use it against us. We're better off apart.
- In "When the Levee Breaks", Dean angrily tells Bobby he would die for Sam in a second, but won't let him turn into a monster Delete. Fairly mundane.
- And then you've got Shifter!Dean tying Sam up and laying his hands on his thighs. Keep. Self-evident.
- The whole jealous!Dean things goes so deep, it's become a parody of itself. In "Metamorphosis", Dean finds out Sam has been spending his time with Ruby and acts in a stereotypical jealous wife from a 50s novel. Keep. Self-evident, but remove the Natter.
- Sam: What, are you, are you leaving?Dean: You don't need me. You and Ruby go fight demons.Sam: Hold on. Dean, come on, man.Dean: [punches him in the face.]Sam: "You satisfied?"Dean: [punches him again]
Edited by AlleyOop on Feb 6th 2021 at 6:23:27 AM
Yeah, uh, hello? Need help on this
.
Relocate anything that is based on a comment made by the players themselves to the main page if possible and nuke the page.
- In general, the signature "Oh Dream~!" and "Oh George~!" phrases can sound quite suggestive. Delete.
- Due to the way the plugin was coded in Minecraft, But We Can't Stop Flying...
when Dream and George get into a boat they end up in an awkward and suggestive sitting position. If they explicitly commented on this, move it to Suggestive Collision on the main page. Otherwise delete.
- Dream lost the game of tag in Minecraft Ultimate Tag...
and had to give George his mom's phone number. George allowed the comments to decide what he should text Dream's mom. The message ended up being "Hi this is your son's boyfriend" Move this to Prank Call on the main page.
- In Giving George $5,000 To Spend On Amazon
he gave Sapnap and Bad five hundred dollars but gave George ten times that amount. I have no idea what this is trying to say. Delete.
- In the Grand Finale: Delete.
George: We're a happy family~!Bad: Yes! Very good, George!Sapnap: And Bad is thicc~!George: What?
- After winning MCC 11, Dream and George kiss (in Minecraft). And taking things Up To Eleven, they later get Sapnap and Karl in on it. Move to Smooch of Victory.
- In the 4 Hunters Finale, Bad says that George and Sapnap argue Like an Old Married Couple. Just make a trope about Like an Old Married Couple on the main page.
More examples can be found on https://shipping.fandom.com/wiki/DreamNotFound
... if you dare. Burn it.
Continuing on my quest to drain the sheer volume of garbage from the Supernatural page:
- In 6.06, "You Can't Handle the Truth," Veritas, the Goddess of Truth, asks Dean what he REALLY feels about his brother. A very pregnant pause follows Keep. Self-evident.
- Willingly going to hell for one another. Twice. Delete. Natter.
- And while there, Dean desperately shouted out Sam's name while being tortured, signifying their "psychotic" codependency. Delete. Not self-evident.
- In the season 7 premiere, aptly titled “Season 7, Time for A Wedding!” Dean’s displeasure at Sam marrying Becky goes into comically jealous territory. Keep. Self-evident.
- He only starts to play ball when Sam threatens to cut Dean out of his life if he doesn’t accept that Becky is in his life. Dean shows up at their doorstep with a waffle iron wedding gift. Keep. Self-evident.
- In 7.04, "Defending Your Life" Dean is so messed up about killing Sam's friend Amy, a kitsune that he can't even stay interested in his one-night stand. Delete. Being too depressed to have sex is a common reaction.
- When the bartender asks him if it's his love life or job that has him down, Dean wryly replies it's a "complex question." Delete. Too vague.
- In 7.07 "The Mentalists", Sam and Dean are told the Campbells, a brother performing duo, were actually lovers that called themselves brothers to avoid the prejudice of the time. Sam and Dean both nod understandingly until they realize the full implications of that (their own mother's maiden name was Campbell). Keep but move to in-universe (and this is closer to a Mistaken for Gay gag; that their reaction is one of distaste would make this the opposite of Ho Yay).
- During this time Sam and Dean are going through another one of their lovers quarrels. Melanie, a "psychic" who admits she just reads body language and makes accurate guesses, correctly reads Sam and Dean and their current unspoken drama. Keep but rewrite the tone.
Melanie: Well, I honestly read people. It's just less whoo-whoo, more body language. Like you two – long-time partners, but, um... a lot of tension. [Gestures to SAM.] You're pissed. [Gestures to DEAN.] And you're stressed. It's not brain surgery.
- During this time Sam and Dean are going through another one of their lovers quarrels. Melanie, a "psychic" who admits she just reads body language and makes accurate guesses, correctly reads Sam and Dean and their current unspoken drama. Keep but rewrite the tone.
- 7.12, “Time After Time,” the brothers have such intimate knowledge of one another that Dean knows the exact position in which Sam sleeps… from 68 years in the past. Delete. Not especially homoerotic (siblings knowing each other's sleeping habits, while a bit more obsessive than the norm, is not particularly unusual let alone homoerotic).
- In 8.14, "Trial and Error", Dean tells Sam he will do the trial because he wants Sam to go on, have a family, get old and be happy. This is almost reminiscent to the door scene in "Titanic" where Jack tells Rose he wants her to go on and have a happy life. Delete. Parallels garbage and Fan Myopia.
- Not only that, but Sam is adamantly against the idea. He tells Dean he's not a grunt and praises how smart he is. Sam the takes on the trials so Dean won't have to, making it another sacrifice for his brother. Delete. Not self-evident.
- In "Taxi Driver", with Sam trapped in purgatory, Dean kills one of his closest friends, Benny, in an effort to save him. Delete. Not self-evident.
- Dean also loses his sense of cool when Sam stumbles out of purgatory, and Dean clings on to him blindly. It takes Dean a second to compose himself to look nonchalant before he pulls back to actually talk to Sam. Delete. Not self-evident.
- The fights Dean and Sam had over Dean being friends with Benny were ridiculously similar to a couple fighting over infidelity (and mirrored the Sam/Dean/Ruby confrontation from earlier seasons, where Dean was the jealous and angry one). Keep. Self-evident.
- In "The Great Escapist", with Sam suffering the effects of the demon trials, Dean obsessively worries about Sam and begs to let him take care of Sam. Keep. Admittedly generic and bordering on ZCE, but at least it's self-evident.
- Jensen Ackles acknowledged that Wincest was a "hot fantasy" for fans in his interview for "Fandom at the Crossroads: Celebration, Shame and Fan/Producer Relationships". Delete. BTS commentary on fans engaging in Ho Yay Shipping, not shipping per se or a commentary on the work itself.
- "Pac Man Fever" marks the first time Dean hugs (adult) Sam just because he loves and cares about him. Usually, it's when one of them comes back from the dead. Delete. Not self-evident, it's just a hug which this series has a lot of, no mention of how it's an unusually homoerotic one.
- In "Sacrfice", the season 8 finale, Dean was willing to let everyone who died and was affected to make the trials happen (Kevin Tran, Kevin's mom, Castiel) die in vain to keep Sam alive. Keep. Self-evident.
- Sam confessed his greatest sin was letting Dean down and forcing him to rely on Benny and Castiel because of his incompetence, to which Dean told him he would never put anyone in front of him, and begged him to understand that Delete. Not self-evident.
Dean: “Sammy… come on. I killed Benny to save you. I’m willing to let this bastard, and all the sons of bitches that killed mom walk because of you. Don’t you dare think that there is anything, past or present, that I would put in front of you! It has never been like that, ever! I need you to see that. I’m begging you.”
- Also, think of what Sam did in this exchange. With the King of Hell literally inside him, moments away from closing the gates of hell, after months of illness and misery and close to collapsing, saying himself that others would die if he didn't- Dean asked him to stop and gave him the above speech, and he really did drop the entire trial business for Dean. They just decided that evil can exist in the world as long as they can stay together, and fell into each other's arms. Keep the last part, delete the rest for being Natter and meta wank.
- Dean has always been dedicated to stopping demons and avenging his mother's death. He's made many sacrifices for this throughout the years, but the only person Dean wasn't willing to sacrifice to reach his goal was Sam. Delete. Redundant meta wank.
- Sam confessed his greatest sin was letting Dean down and forcing him to rely on Benny and Castiel because of his incompetence, to which Dean told him he would never put anyone in front of him, and begged him to understand that Delete. Not self-evident.
- Robbie Thompson jokingly pitched an idea for Season 9 where Sam and Dean go to couples counseling and "feels ensue". Delete. Producer joke, not all that pertinent and didn't make it into the actual production as a cut scene or anything of the sort.
- In a deleted scene from “Time After Time” Sam and Dean look pretty dang flirty for a pair of brothers
. Delete. ZCE and the linked example doesn't really show anything particularly noteworthy.
- In a deleted scene from “Time After Time” Sam and Dean look pretty dang flirty for a pair of brothers
- In Torn and Frayed, Sam and Dean have an argument over Benny that sounds strangely like that a married couple dealing with infidelity (though married couple comparisons have been made in canon for years) Keep. Self-evident.
- Dean: Okay, well, then what the hell do we do now?Sam: It depends. It depends, on you. On whether or not you're done with him.Dean: Well, honestly, I don't know.
- Sam's look of grief at the end really seals the deal Delete. ZCE.
- At Dallas Con 2013, actor Jensen Ackles said that the only place Dean truly belongs is with Sam in the impala, a sentiment he's repeated many times over the years. Maybe keep. Self-evident, but it's BTS trivia garbage.
- In season 9, Dean was so desperate to keep Sam with him that he allowed an angel to possess his body to keep Sam alive. Delete. Not self-evident.
- Ezekiel points out to Dean that he does what he does because he loves Sam. Dean becomes uncomfortable with having his love for his brother presented right in front of his face. Keep. Self-evident.
- The part of Sam that wanted to live took the form of Dean. Delete. Not self-evident.
- In early Season 7, Sam (who's now Hell-lucinating) falls on glass and hurts his hand, which Dean patches up. When Dean takes Sam's hand again to check the wound, Sam's Lucifer-Hallucination (remember, just in Sam's head) teases Sam about Dean wanting to hold his hand. Later on, Dean holds and squeezes Sam's hand to bring him back to reality when Sam's basically about to shoot up a warehouse and has no idea what's real. Keep. Self-evident.
- In Season 8, Sam's girlfriend Amelia is mourning her husband, who is a soldier missing in action and presumed dead. She and Don are clearly meant to be a parallel to Sam and Dean. Eventually it transpires that Don hadn't died, and is less than thrilled that his wife had taken up with someone else. However, he is magnanimous, and asks Amelia to choose the one that will make her happy. Dean, likewise, was not dead after all, is decidedly not happy that Sam got into a relationship (though that's also because he believes Sam took up with a girl instead of looking for him, which doesn't seem to have been the case), but is also ultimately magnanimous and asks Sam to choose the life he wants. Delete. The one part that would've been a good example sabotages itself and what's left explains the more obvious reason and what's left is parallels wank.
- As of Season 8, the brothers definitely come across as a "little bit married." Dean's resentment of Amelia, and Sam's jealousy of Benny, make it clear that neither brother tolerates others being close or getting between them. This is confirmed in "Sacrifice," where they both pretty well confirm that they need to be first place in each other's lives. Redundant, trim and combine with above entry.
- Season 9 wouldn't strike many fans on the surface as very Ho Yay-tastic, as the brothers have been fighting for several episodes, but they're still behaving for all the world like a married couple going through a trial separation or exes that sleep together. They're still spending huge amounts of time together, sighing and glancing at each other like a couple of teenage girls, still being physically close (standing very close together, hunched over the same tables while researching, etc) and despite the fact that Sam's the "pissed off party," he's racing to Dean like a bat out of hell every time he thinks Dean's in danger. It's even implied in one scene that Sam, at least, pictured himself growing old with Dean, and seemed very, very depressed at the idea that this would no longer be the case (Dean has a similar reaction in this scene, but since he's always been resigned to dying a hunter's death, it's hard to tell if he ever sincerely saw himself as "old" at all, let alone with Sam). It doesn't help that the nub of their fight is basically both of them doubting the other's love for them. Delete. Perhaps some can be salvaged, but I doubt it. Purge it for being an abominable pile of Natter.
- In episode 9.17 "Mother's Little Helper", when Dean lies to Sam over the phone about what he's doing and who he's with, Crowley quips that he "lies to Sam like he's your wife." Keep or move to in-universe Homoerotic Subtext. Self-evident.
- Everyone Sam Winchester sleeps with dies. Dean has died more than anyone else on the show. Delete. May be funny as a joke, but whoever added this is trying way too hard unless they want to imply Sam has been sleeping with his parents too.
- In "About a Boy", when Sam says, "Dean, I'm way too big to fit in that," about a barely-open window, Dean jokes, "First time you've ever had to say that, huh?" Delete. As far as I can tell Dean makes these kinds of jokes at a lot of people, and the context makes it clear it's a Teeny Weenie joke.
- In season 10 episode "Soul Survivor", Dean makes a quip about Sam wanting a "divorce" after trying to murder Sam by bashing his skull in with a hammer. Naturally, Sam didn't. Keep but move to in-universe.
- Dean: What'd Sam say? Does he want a divorce?Castiel: I'm sure Sam knows that whatever you said - what you did - wasn't really you. Certainly wasn't all you.Dean: I tried to kill him, Cas.Castiel: Dean, you two have been through so much. Look, you're brothers. It'll take a lot more than trying to kill Sam with a hammer to make him want to walk away.Dean: You realize how screwed up our lives are that that even makes sense?
- In season 9 episode 8 "Rock and a Hard Place", Jody Mills tells Sam (about his and Dean's relationship), "Come on. You and Dean? That's something special, don't you think?" And instead of smiling fondly (like most people would about siblings they love platonically) or even shaking his head (like people do when they disagree), Sam seems flustered and sort of unwilling to comment and he does his eyes-all-over-the-place thing before looking down. That's what you usually do when people mention a crush you're trying to hide. Keep. Self-evident but trim away the Shipping Goggles Natter asides.
- Keeping the tradition of people mistaking Sam and Dean for lovers, a worker walks in on Dean talking to Sam and tells him to "quit flirting with the trainer and get back to work." Keep but move to in-universe.
- Sam and Dean constantly shared sleeping quarters until season 8, when they moved into the Bunker. Even then, it seems they still share anytime they stay in motels- i.e. whenever they hunt, i.e. pretty frequently. And even in the Bunker, they seem to wander in and out of each other's rooms pretty casually. Sam seemed to just hang out in Dean's room on a regular basis when Dean was missing. Delete. Even with context it's fairly standard "old habits die hard" behavior, thus not self-evident.
- The brothers have pretty well never had a sense of personal space or privacy around each other, justified in that they grew up in a car and an endless series of cramped motel rooms. But throughout the series, they've always stood superclose together, have never been hesitant about touching each other, wear each other's clothes on occasion (and Sam at least has had to change a dead!Dean into fresh clothing at least twice throughout the series), and when Dean tried to make a feeble protest for privacy in Season 10 in response to Sam grabbing his cell phone, Sam just looked at him and proceeded to read Dean's messages. Delete. A lot of this is blatant Shipping Goggles or a stretch.
- In the season 10 meta episode "Fan Fiction" the director shows herself to be both a shipper of Destiel and Wincest. When Dean observes the "play Dean" and "play Sam" standing a little too close to each other and asks her about it, she passionately explains that they're rehearsing the BM (Boy Melodrama) scene. Keep but move to in-universe as Ship Tease or Mistaken for Gay; again Dean's reaction of distaste means this is not Ho Yay but the opposite.
- Marie: You know, the scene where the boys get together, and they're-they're driving, or leaning against Baby. Drinking a beer, sharing their feelings. The two of them. Alone. But together. Bonded. United. The power of the brotherly—Dean: Why are they standing so close together?Marie: Hmm... reasons.Dean: You know they're brothers, right?Marie: Well, duh! But... subtext.
- Dean responds by quickly telling the actors to to "take a sub-step back there, ladies." Later in the episode, during Dean's impassioned meta speech on how fans of Supernatural are allowed to interpret things the way they see fit, he tells the Dean and Sam actors to stand as close to each other as Marie wants them to. Keep but move to in-universe, and also a statement of "fans can and will do whatever they want" this is not the same as in-show Ho Yay.
- This is a callback to Dean's disgust at Wincest in the season 4 episode "The Monster at the End of This Book." In that episode Dean also questions whether the fangirls know he and Sam are brothers. "Fan Fiction" was meant to be a "love letter" to fans showing that the creators are now fine with any slash-y interpretation of the show. Delete. Again, see above. At best this is just Dean Took a Level in Kindness.
- Jensen: I think "none" would be the answer.Jared: We don't, but feel free to. Peace and love.Jensen: Yeah, whatever floats your boat.
- In the season 10 episode "Ask Jeeves," the pair of wealthy sisters that have been hitting on Sam and Dean all night come to the conclusion that they're gay. Keep but move to Mistaken for Gay.
- Heddy: I knew those boys were trailer trash the moment they rolled up in that American-madBeverly: Not to mention homosexuals.Heddy: Ugh. Homosexual murderers. Like Leopold and Loeb.
- 10.14 "The Executioner's Song," Cain taunts Dean by rattling off the deaths he'll amass as the Mark slowly turns him into a monster. First he'll kill Crowley (with mixed feelings), then Castiel (that will hurt something awful). He then calls Sam's death "the murder you'd never survive, the one that would finally turn you into as much of a savage as it did me." Dean, who's been mostly determinedly silent during Cain's monologue, finally breaks at the mention of killing Sam. He begs Cain to tell he doesn't have to do it. Delete. The full context of this line is about Cain killing his brother, which means there is a much more obvious non-homoerotic interpretation for viewers to draw upon and making the homoerotic interpretation require too much Shipping Goggles.
- After killing Cain, Dean walks back to Cas, Crowley, and Sam in a daze. He collapses in Sam's arms and looks haunted. Delete. Not self-evident.
- In the season 10 finale, just when Dean is about to kill Sam under orders of Death, he changes last minute and kills Death instead. Delete. Not self-evident.
- Dean decided that killing Death Himself was preferable to killing Sam. Now that's love. Delete. Not particularly homoerotic, and get rid of the gushing.
Edited by AlleyOop on Feb 6th 2021 at 6:44:20 AM
Okay, thanks for that. I had to rewatch certain episodes myself to full understand the scenes some of these examples were describing, which is where I realised how misleading some of them are.
Anyway, I've added the Nora entry (the first example) to the sandbox. I don't know if anyone else can offer any feedback as well?
Edited by Wyldchyld on Jan 10th 2021 at 11:24:54 AM
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.HoYay.Ready Jet Go may need a greater look-over (many of those pages seem to have been Entry Pimped to oblivion), but right off the bat the description is really gushy (It's one of the ONLY preschool shows to have a Ho Yay page guys! It's so matuuuuure!)
I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.I agree, and it's also mildly creepy that there'd be so much dedicated to Squee about homoeroticism in a toddler's cartoon. Unless it's the kind of show that is extremely laden with Getting Crap Past the Radar and Parental Bonus, I'd imagine any homoeroticism would make more sense to be in the realm of genuine Homoerotic Subtext and Ambiguously Gay than shipping fodder for, even if not Yaoi Fangirls who think Guy on Guy Is Hot, then people who are definitely way too obsessed with shipping and romance. Which is how the page reads.
Give me some time to properly work through the entries, but christ, even at a brief glance most of these examples are horrible. This is exactly how not to write about Ho Yay.
Edited by AlleyOop on Jan 15th 2021 at 4:54:33 AM
It's because there was a troper who was obsessed with squeezing every last subpage out of Ready Jet Go for the sole purposes of making the show seem more mature and edgy.
Alright, here I go for Ready Jet Go!.
- A small example: In "Jet 2", when Jet is presented with the dilemma of having plans with both Sean and Sydney at the same time, he chooses to help Sean. Delete. Unless there's other moments in this episode that exacerbate the Two-Timer Date implications, this is a pretty generic plot that's common among platonic friends and family too.
- Jet, who is Ambiguously Bi, is very touchy-feely with Sean, putting his arm around his shoulder at any given moment, such as in the episodes "Ice Moon Enceladus
" and "What Goes Up...
◊" Keep?
- Especially in this scene from Back to Bortron 7
◊. Keep?
- Speaking of which, there exists an official pillowcase
that has Jet linking arms with both Sydney and Sean. Delete. In context this is clearly a friendship gesture.
- Speaking of which, there exists an official pillowcase
- After the show got canceled, Craig Bartlett confirmed in the Instagram comments that Jet is bi, so all these moments weren't accidental and were intentional. It was extremely obvious that Jet swung both ways; he displays several Camp Gay mannerisms like being obsessed with his hair, loving theatre (in the Christmas episode), being overdramatic and hammy, etc. He had no qualms about dressing up as a female witch in "Jet's First Halloween". He also makes a limp wrist
when the saucer crashes on the moon in "One Small Step". Jet does some other stereotypically gay/bi things like finger-gunning and sitting incorrectly in chairs (for the record, the LGBTQ community gladly embraces these things). In "Potatoes on Mars", he performs a parody of "Life On Mars?" by David Bowie, who was openly bisexual himself, even though he flip-flopped on it a lot. The cherry on top? Jet mentions watching The Wizard of Oz in "Jet's First Halloween". The movie starred Judy Garland, who is considered an icon among men-loving-men
. Oh boy is this entry a clusterfuck of awful, holy hell. Migrate the first bit to Word of Gay, and maybe some of the other details to an entry under Camp Gay on the character page with clarification that he's bi rather than gay. But everything else is a bunch of Natter, Fan Wank, projection and stereotypes. Secondly, speaking as a bi person, a lot of these so-called gay-embraced things are deliberately things that any person, including straight people, can do, as a Take That! towards the usual stereotypes about Camp Gay or Butch Lesbian people. They're not actually supposed to taken seriously as indicative of being queer. Thirdly, Jet being confirmed bisexual doesn't necessarily translate to him having feelings for Sean specifically.
- Especially in this scene from Back to Bortron 7
- In "Project Pluto", Jet gives a thumbs up to Sean and nudges his elbow towards him. When Sean gets bummed out that Pluto isn't a planet anymore, Jet puts his hand on his shoulder and comforts him, smiling at him. Would need to context to know if this is actually significant or a more general gesture of friendship that also happens with other characters.
- In "Mindy's Mystery", Mindy tries to play her flugelhorn as an "always-sleepy person", and Jet likes the music she's playing. Jet then begins to dance with (read: drag) Sean, and indirectly calls him his baby. Delete. It's just a casual reference.
"It swings, baby!"
- Whether or not this was intentional by the animators is up for debate, but in "Scientific Sean", Sean compliments Sydney on her paper airplane towards the end of the episode...except he's looking at Jet and not Sydney. Delete. Even if this is intentional, it doesn't come off as homoerotic specifically.
- This
◊ scene from "Jet's Time Machine" is self-explanatory to say the least. It's also worth mentioning that Jet also had his hand on Sean's chest a mere second earlier. Delete. The image is gone.
- In "Tiny Blue Dot", Sean starts to feel sick, but tries to calm himself down by reminding himself that astronauts have to go through similar training to go into space. Jet puts his arm around Sean's shoulder and tells him he's already a great astronaut, which successfully makes him feel better. N'awwwww. Delete. That's sweet, but easily attributable to general friendship.
- The ultimate gayest moment in the series happens in "Back to Bortron 7", where Sean has a dream where he sings a soft duet with Jet. Just him and Jet are in the dream, and no one else. They hold glowing orbs, look at each other, and smile. Sean sings about how he may like Bortron 7. Sean smiles after he wakes up from the dream. Not helped at all by the fact that when this happened, the spaceship was in Interstellar Superdrive, which is pretty much a rainbow colored version of the lightspeed F/X from Star Wars. Keep, but get rid of the rainbow thing as it's not really relevant, especially if it happens multiple times in other contexts.
- During the song, Jet holds a pink orb and Sean holds a purple orb. They both wear blue spacesuits. All three of those colors are the colors of the bisexual pride flag (albeit, not in the right pattern). They're not even trying to hide it anymore. Delete. Please, I can't handle any more of this "pink and purple in proximity = clearly trying to Ship Tease" garbage.
- The entire song can be interpreted as Sean coming to terms with his sexuality. ZCE, plus sounds like it's ripe for abuse by Shipping Goggles..
- Right after the song, Jet introduces Sean to the Holo-Room, which Jet can program to look like any place. Jet makes the room look like Little Dipper Lake, back on Earth. They go into the hologram together, completely alone, then we get this exchange. During it, Jet lies down next to Sean, and it is filled with longing looks on Sean's part: Keep.
Sean: I didn't realize how much I missed green trees and blue water.Jet: (sighs) You're right, Sean! Planet Earth is so green, and blue, all covered in oceans. No wonder you miss it.Sean: Y'know, I'm sure I'm gonna love visiting Bortron 7, but if you don't mind, I'm just gonna sit here by my Earth lake for a minute.Jet: Okay!- After Jet exits the Holo-Room, he stares at Sean for a little bit. I don't have enough context for this, but without it I'd assume he was just concerned about his friend being sad.
- At one point in the movie, where the kids are checking out Bortron 7's three moons, Jet briefly puts his hand on Sean's back. Again I have no good context for it, but that's not all that unusual. Probably delete it.
- At one point in the movie, Jet 2 wakes up Mindy at 2:00 AM and she sees that the hologram of Jet's house is gone. She tries to make the house hologram come back, but several other holograms pop up. It is revealed that Jet 2, completely managed by Jet himself, has exactly two images of Sean saved on his hard drive. Okay? I'm not sure what this is trying to even say. They're friends, of course he'd save pics of his friend. For this to be homoerotic, I'd expect there to be way more. Delete.
- In conclusion, this movie is so gay that it made Steven Universe look like a Hallmark channel film. Delete. Natter bullshit.
- During the song, Jet holds a pink orb and Sean holds a purple orb. They both wear blue spacesuits. All three of those colors are the colors of the bisexual pride flag (albeit, not in the right pattern). They're not even trying to hide it anymore. Delete. Please, I can't handle any more of this "pink and purple in proximity = clearly trying to Ship Tease" garbage.
- During the "A Scientific Town" number in "Lone Star", Jet and Sean briefly do-si-do. Maybe. It's just a dance.
- Briefly in the episode "Space Race", as the gang passes Earth in the titular race, Sean looks towards Jet and comments on how beautiful it is, while Jet gives a sigh. Delete. Nothing homoerotic about this.
- In "Sean's Neptune Tune", Jet calls Sean "The one and only, amazing Sean". Delete. That's an ordinary comment.
- In "From Pluto With Love", the gang goes to Pluto on Valentine's Day and sings "Dear Little Frozen Pluto" to it, which is pretty much a love song. During the song, Jet and Sean dance with each other (specifically, a pas de deux). Near the end of the song, Jet leaps into Sean's arms and Sean throws Jet in the air. They also look into each other's eyes as they sing You orbit all around this heart of mine. Maybe keep.
- As of season 2, Jet loves to call Sean "Sean-zo", and Sean seems to like it when he's called that. Delete. Affectionate Nickname is not inherently homoerotic and nothing about this entry suggests anything of that nature. Everything below this reads as Fan Wank-y Natter to boot.
- In "Mindy's Bedtime", Mindy also calls Sean "Sean-zo", but he gets pissed off when she does so. But he was noticeably happy when Jet calls him "Sean-zo". Hmm...
- As of "Magnet, PI", he's totally embraced the nickname, dubbing himself "The Great Seanzo".
- He also calls himself "Sean-zo" in "Every Day Is Earth Day".
- During the "Ice Skating in July" number from "Mindy's Ice Rink", Jet grabs Sean and throws him in the air as Sean does a pirouette, similar to the dance they did in "From Pluto With Love". Eh, keep.
- In "Sean's Robotic Arm", Jet gives Sean a shoulder massage twice. Once with his Bortronian robotic arms, and then again with his real arms. Delete.
- In "Ain't No Mars Mountain High Enough", Sean and Jet team up to hike on Mt. Sharp. Later, Jet ends up sitting on Sean, and he doesn't seem to mind. Delete. Absence of repulsion =/= homoeroticism.
- In "Lone Star 2 - Rocket Kids!", Western!Jet eagerly picks up Western!Sean and sits him on top of the telescope. Delete. This entry has nothing going for it other than a pun of low quality.
- When Sean nervously puts his Neil Armstrong figure inside of the homemade foot rocket, Jet gives Sean a tender look and pats his shoulder, causing Sean to feel better. Maybe keep? I'd need more context on this though, as it might've been an ordinary gesture in the show.
- In the first "Lone Star" episode, Western!Sean was a huge Jerkass to Western!Jet, disliking his ideas. However, in this episode, he admits to liking him, calling him a "kooky feller". Delete. Becoming less of a jerk =/= homoeroticism.
- In "Potatoes on Mars", Jet's idea of convincing Sean to go to Mars is to get close to his face and sing a rock ballad about how Sean has just got to go.
- In the same episode, Sean seems to rest his head on Jet's shoulder at one point during the song "Potato Changes". Keep, but only if this is a thing that actually happens and isn't pure Shipping Goggles.
- In "One Small Step", Sean is on Jet's side for once, as they are both excited to go to the Moon for their sleepover, while Sydney is initially a little hesitant. It is justified, as Sean is a huge nerd about the Apollo 11 mission. Later, when Jet goes missing, Sean is worried. He and Mindy are sent to find him. When they find Jet, Sean hugs him. Keep.
Zerk/Sean
- In "Back to Bortron 7", Zerk seemed a little too obsessed with Sean. He bats his eyes at him and calls him "adorable". He also tries to measure Sean for whatever reason and stares at him while seemingly belittling Earth. Keep.
Zerk: Watching them makes me want to visit this big, blue, heavy-gravity planet I've heard so much about...
- When the whole gang is at the restaurant, Zerk takes Sean's Exploding Shake and drinks it with the straw that Sean put his mouth on. Delete. Not all instances of Indirect Kiss have homoerotic vibes. Sometimes it's just plain grossout humor.
Mitchell/Jet
- Believe it or not, Jet has a fair amount of Foe Yay with Mitchell, despite Mitchell's animosity towards him (and the fact that Mitchell also has frequent Ship Tease with Mindy). In many episodes featuring Mitchell, Mitchell is usually found spying on Jet, whether it be listening in on his kid-kart plans, or trying to figure out why he is building a flying saucer, which makes Mitchell come off as sort of a Stalker with a Crush. Even though Mitchell is mean to Jet, Jet is very kind towards him in return, as evidenced in "Kid-Kart Derby". Jet even noticed that Mitchell was feeling sad when no one was cheering for him when he won the derby, but Jet got the entire town to cheer for Mitchell instead of Jet. Keep.
- Not even their dads are immune. The episode "Earth Camping" is dripping with Foe Yay and has Mr. Peterson and Carrot arguing Like an Old Married Couple, despite both of them already having wives.note Eh, maybe.
- In "Holidays in Boxwood Terrace", Mitchell wants to find out, yet again, if Jet is an alien. He then says that (his words, not ours) that he needs to get "closer to Jet". Keep but remove the parentheticals.
- In "Treasure Map", Jet is very affectionate with Mitchell in several scenes. Also, the very fact that Jet wanted to make Mitchell happy by making a treasure chest for him. Possible keep, but very ZCE.
- In "Our Sun is a Star!", Jet gets very close up to Mitchell at one point. ZCE.
Mitchell/Sean
- Even though they barely had any interaction, at the very least, Mitchell seems less antagonistic towards Sean than he is to Jet and Mindy. Delete. Being nicer or meaner to other characters isn't indicative of anything by its lonesome.
- In this scene
(which is from "You Can Call Me Albedo") in the season 2 trailer where all four of the main Earth children dance together, Mitchell stares dreamily at Sean (or Sydney, but most likely Sean) for the entire duration of the scene, and has a very large grin. Not sure. I could sort of see it, but only because I was primed to by the above comment. Otherwise I would've just assumed he was looking at Sydney.
- In "Eye in the Sky", Mitchell, being a weather expert, decides to help Sean and the rest of the kids to determine whether it will rain or not. At one point in the episode, Sean compliments Mitchell on his knowledge and remarks that he could be a Space Scout one day. Mitchell grins very widely, and whispers to Cody what Sean said. He does a salute while a triumphant fanfare plays, but then gets embarrassed and stops.Delete. Not sure how this is even homoerotic? It's just a very generic example of being nice to one another.
Other:
- In "Mini-Golf at the DSA", Mr. Peterson and Mindy are the last ones left to putt. When the former misses the cup, Dr. Bergs is shown comforting him. I don't know enough about these two to tell.
- In "The Tide is High", Sunspot becomes infatuated with a crab of an Ambiguous Gender. That sounds more like a candidate for Ambiguously Bi since the crush is overt while the part where it might be same-gender is up in the air.
Female
- In the background of "Back to Bortron 7", you can see two adult Bortronian women, one wearing purple and the other yellow, sitting together at one point and going on what appears to be a date at the restaurant at another. I don't now. This might be legit, but I'd need more context.
Other:
- In winter episodes, Sydney's coat has the bi flag colors on it, and Sean's has the pan flag colors. This isn't indicative of their sexualities, because the fandom commonly interprets Sydney as asexual (heteroromantic because she was never shown to like girls) and Sean as gay. Still, it was nice that the character designers inserted those details. Delete. While queer flag color imagery can be deliberate (I don't remember if that trope is up yet or not), this reeks of fandom wank, headcanons, and projection.
- In Jet's garage, you can see that he has a gay pride flag in there
◊. Real subtle, Wind Dancer Films.note Delete. It's 100% a control panel. The troper thinks they're being clever and cheeky but it's blatantly obvious to anyone else that this is Shipping Goggles at work.
On a side note I understand that queer flag colors do have their place in implying queerness and being used by queer creators to get crap past the radar, and "bisexual lighting" is indeed an established phenomenon.
But all too often I've seen obsessive shippers for basically every pairing yell about how their ship is oh-so-canon (even when the characters have overt love interests elsewhere) just because blue, purple, and/or pink appeared in proximity somewhere in the background of the character, even if it was in the context of a generic space scene, or even if the show uses it all over the place even with non-queer characters. And I'm quite sick of it.
Edited by AlleyOop on Jan 17th 2021 at 7:44:44 AM
For the record, Ho Yay is flexible enough nowadays to include non-sexual examples, so seeing gay stuff in a toddler show isn't inherently bad.
That said, the page has the opposite problem of taking totally platonic or normal things and cramming them to fit a Ho Yay page, seemingly just for the sake of having one. A lot of those gay/bi stereotypes they discuss are memes that are so specifically inside jokes for the community (especially online) and so new that it's unlikely a mainstream show would use them to hint at Jet being bi, not to mention they obviously aren't tethered just to being gay (especially in context - isn't Jet an alien? Maybe that's why he sits weird in chairs?)
Also, that "so gay it makes Steven Universe look like a Hallmark movie film" line makes me wanna punch a wall, but maybe that's because I'm tired of shippers gushing over their non-canon gay ship being better representation than the work of a nonbinary bisexual woman who risked her show to put explicit LGBT rep onscreen. But y'know, that's nothing compared to boys staring at each other.
I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.From Miss Sherlock:
- Les Yay: Wouldn't be a Sherlock Holmes adaptation without some form of rapport between our lead characters. And oh boy, did the "consulting wives" deliver.
- Sherlock. The staircase scene. Getting up close and personal with Wato and smelling her. And whispering the explanation.
- Sherlock saying that she'd rather have Wato shoot her than anyone else. This is what makes Irikawa's control over Wato crack.
Now I think these are valid examples. I can even think some more examples that can be added, but I was wondering if they should be expanded. And I couldn't help but notice they aren't on Sherlock Holmes. Should I add them?
Edited by Bullman on Jan 15th 2021 at 8:37:35 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup threadI can definitely expand them. As well as add some more entries. Seriously though when I do should I add them to the Sherlock Holmes page.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup threadAlley Oop I did you a nice favor and cleaned up the ho yay page for ready jet go. I was shocked when I saw this page because this show is meant for preschool children and they made the whole page look like it was made for teenagers.
Troperr means Troper revolution. I'm here to bring revolution to this Site by expanding trope examples wherever such expansion is neededI think we should do some clean up on the ho yay page for Time Squad. From what I saw from it, some of the examples consisted of attempts to prove that Larry is gay based on stereotypes alone and then giving out very bloated explanations for it.
Troperr means Troper revolution. I'm here to bring revolution to this Site by expanding trope examples wherever such expansion is neededIn Time Squad's case it does seem like the stereotypical Camp Gay traits were used deliberately to imply Larry was gay as a means of getting crap past the Moral Guardians. In which case it wouldn't be Ho Yay but a form of Ambiguously Gay (which also encompasses "definitely gay, but unable to say so explicitly within the show for Moral Guardians reasons").
I'm definitely willing to give the page a look-through for quality control purposes, though. As I remember the show being blatant enough with Larry's homosexuality that such bloat shouldn't really be necessary as most examples are pretty self-evident.
Edited by AlleyOop on Jan 17th 2021 at 6:31:00 AM
HoYay.The Golden Girls seems to be mostly Homoerotic Subtext or just...talking about lesbians.
- Dorothy and Blanche's roleplaying in "Forgive Me, Father". Justified in that Blanche is trying to show Dorothy how to ask a man to dinner. ZCE
- Also, sort of demonstrated here
in an episode where Rose and Blanche have joined a dirty dancing class. ZCE
- Dorothy and Rose dancing together when both their respective dance partners leave the competition. Low on context, I don't remember the dance being particularly romantic either.
- Rose mistakenly books Blanche and Dorothy on a morning talk show dealing with lesbian lovers of Miami, and the two enraged girls are about to storm off the set until Rose tells them she'll lose her job if they don't stay. Rather reluctantly, the girls pretend to be in a relationship for the cameras. I think it's too contextual to count as written, but I remember some moments where the characters embrace it (like Blanche calling herself the "little homemaker") that might count.
- The tag for the episode, during the closing credits, sees one half of the other lesbian couple on said show appear at the girls' doorstep looking for Dorothy, having heard about hers and Blanche's "split". Dorothy, realizing it was a come-on, simply said "too soon" and shut the door. This has more of a case for being Ho Yay since Dorothy doesn't deny being gay.
- Blanche makes Rose double date with her on New Year's Eve because she thinks she'll have bad luck if she doesn't get kissed at midnight. After the dates go bad and the men leave, Blanche looks like she is considering kissing Rose, who quickly says "Don't even think about it". Could probably count, but might be Homoerotic Subtext.
- Doubles as a form of retroactive Cast Incest, as in their previous series they played an aunt and a niece!.... Nattery.
- This exchange: Probably Homoerotic Subtext.
Blanche: Dorothy, do you realize it has been four days since I have enjoyed the company of a man?Dorothy: I know, Blanche. I’ve been marking the days off on my "Big Ships of the Navy" calendar.Blanche: I don’t think I can stand it much longer! My body feels like a Corvette up on blocks with its engine racin’, the wheels just spinnin’ and spinnin’ with nowhere to go! I feel like I’m gonna EXPLODE! (*grabs Dorothy's wrist*) Dorothy, you have to help me, you have to do somethin’…Dorothy: Honey, there’s nothing I can do, so get that look out of your eye and let go of my hand.
- Also this: Same situation as above.
Dorothy: Blanche, I need to talk to you privately.Blanche: Oh, okay.Dorothy: There's this person... someone I've known for quite a while, and lately there seems to be this... attraction developing, uh, an attraction I've been trying to deny. [Blanche stands up in horror] Blanche, what are you doing?Blanche: It's a curse... my beauty's always been a curse. I'm sorry, Dorothy, but... like the fatal blossom of the graceful jimson weed, I entice with my fragrance but can provide no succor. - Similarly, in "Yokel Hero", Dorothy and Blanche are alone in a train compartment at one point, and Dorothy tells Blanche there's something they need to donote . Blanche, like in the example listed above, misunderstands and thinks Dorothy is coming on to her: Same as above.
Dorothy: Blanche, I'm glad we're alone. I think there's something we should do.
Blanche: Dorothy, I like you as a friend, but I think I'll pass. - In "Isn't It Romantic?" Dorothy and Sophia tell Blanche that Dorothy's friend Jean is a lesbian and has feelings for Rose. Blanche is upset... that Jean prefers Rose over her. Valid to me.
- In "The Mangiacavallo Curse Makes a Lousy Wedding Present", this exchange occurs after Blanche gets stuck behind a bathroom stall; Dorothy won't stop banging on it and accidentally hitting Blanche as a result: Not really Ho Yay, since they're not flirting with each other and attracting women is used as a threat.
Blanche: Dorothy, you do that one more time, I'm gonna write on this wall: "For a good time, call Dorothy Zbornak!"
Dorothy: Blanche... this is the ladies' room.
Blanche: Right. - This exchange in "The Flu" when Dorothy, Blanche and Rose make up aand share a group hug after a fight. Then Sophia walks in... More like lampshaded Homoerotic Subtext.
Sophia: What are you doing?Rose: We're having a group hug.Sophia: Well knock it off. The neighbors will get the wrong idea.
- In “Old Boyfriends” after learning Marvin’s sister, Sara, is actually his wife Sophia declares, “Dorothy isn’t my daughter, she’s my lesbian lover.” Y'all, they're mother and daughter, and Sophia's clearly being sarcastic. Ho Yay is not "saying the word lesbian."
- In one episode, Dorothy explains to Blanche and Rose how they're her best friends. Blanche thanks Dorothy and says it gave her a warm feeling inside, then leaves the kitchen to go...take advantage of said feeling. This seems valid but I say this because I just added it after it stuck out to me watching an episode the other night.
Edited by mightymewtron on Jan 18th 2021 at 2:13:46 PM
I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.Wizards of Waverly Place's YMMV page has a Ho Yay section. Fair enough, because Alex does seem to hit on girls a lot...but then they list examples involving Justin and Jerry (his father). Max and Mason (who's older than him), Max and Justin (brothers).
iCarly's Ho Yay subpage also lists "moments" between Freddie, a minor, and Spencer, an adult.
Honestly, we need cleanups for pages on late 2000s/early 2010s Nick and Disney sitcoms as a whole because the pages are outdated (some have natter and This Troper in them) and creepy.
Granted, where iCarly is concerned, Dan Schneider himself is equally creepy and so it's possible some of these things are actually legit and not just people being way too excited to find things. But Ho Yay is unintentional, so...yeah, idk.
Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall![]()
Do we bar examples of Ho Yay between siblings, child/adult, etc? I wouldn't be opposed to it but I'm not sure if that's a strict rule (though child/adult might be banned under the P5), since some works do, unfortunately, have those undertones. I guess it could be moved to No Yay instead?
There have been incidents on ATT where people have reported Incest Yay Shipping fics on Fanfic Recs, and have been told that it's okay as long as there's no sex between minors.
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I'm (slowly) working through cleaning up the monster of a page that is Supernatural, which is notorious for having a very popular incest ship between brothers called Wincest.
As you can see from my evaluations upthread, most of it is Shipping Goggles gone mad, for sure (and on an unfortunate side note some of its shippers have been vandalizing entries supporting the non-incestuous rival ship on this site, so I may need to be extra skeptical of examples for their ship as if this is what they're like
).
But it's apparently somewhat justified in-universe due to the characters being a Dysfunction Junction with canonical toxic codependence issues (thus being in an incestuous relationship would be the least of their problems), and it's also notable enough that even the staff have made jokes about the homoerotic vibes between the two, so it's not like viewers are noticing the vibes out of nowhere.
IMO, regardless of the canonical relationship between the characters, the entries should be fine so long as they abide to the following rough guidelines:
- Is it written in a way that makes the queerness between the characters self-evident, including to non-enthusiasts of the ship? Basically, do not strap your Shipping Goggles too hard, but likewise do not strap on your Anti Shipping Goggles either as some aggressive anti-Ho Yay or rival shippers have done. Whether an example is self-evident or not has nothing to do with whether the relationship itself is tasteful or not as Ho Yay is strictly about documenting audience-perceived homoeroticism, not making judgments about their moral quality. And, of course, no Zero-Context Example issues.
- Conversely, is the example a deliberately skewed homoerotic interpretation at the expense of a more mundane and platonic/familial one? Now, mind you, it's possible for an explicitly platonic or familial interaction that is obviously supposed to be non-romantic in context to still have (possibly accidental) romantic subtext depending on how the scene is portrayed. That infamous Folger's incest commercial comes to mind. On the other hand, I have had to clear out examples like "this male character finally got with his hetero female love interest that he's been signaling his attraction to all work long. His male friend told him that was a good idea. Clearly this is a sign of how much he respects his friend's opinions, and thus is evidence that he's actually really in love with the friend" does not, and comes off as a tortuous exercise in delusion. Don't do that.
- Is the entry able to do so in an economical fashion? If it takes an entire paragraph or link to rambly Tumblr essay of meta Fan Wank to explain why the moment is so gay, chances are, it's probably not very self-evident to non-fans. With sufficient amounts of bullshitting, literally any interaction between two same-gendered characters could be chalked up as Ho Yay.
- Is the example obviously intentional on the part of the creators or not? If it is, then it's a valid example of something, but it's text, not subtext. Thus it's better served under a main-page entry such as Ambiguously Gay, Homoerotic Subtext, Mistaken for Gay, or any of the other Queer as Tropes.
- Is the example written professionally? Does it have a lot of gushy squeeing? This is more of a general etiquette and quality control matter that can be fixed with rewrites, but examples that fail this criterion often have problems with one or more of the above also.
Edited by AlleyOop on Feb 17th 2021 at 1:26:12 PM
So back in November, this big wall was added to YMMV.Mystery Skulls Animated regarding Lewis and Arthur, and I've been meaning to go through it but forgot until now, so:
- Ho Yay: Quite a bit of this can be interpreted between Lewis and Arthur, both from character interactions (in flashbacks) and song choices.
- More than a few fans have pointed out the default state of Lewis' locket is yellow, a color associated with Arthur, not Vivi. Lewis' locket reflects his state; most of the time it's yellow because while he still wants to reunite with Vivi, he is much more focused on getting revenge on Arthur.
- Two instances in the flashback of "Ghost". In the beginning of the flashback, Arthur is shown looking sadly (possibly longingly) at Lewis, before looking away dejectedly, in direct contrast to his friends who are all smiling. Later, as they're walking into the cave, Arthur is performing a Security Cling to Lewis, showing that the other is a source of comfort for him on at least some level. I can see it.
- The general assumption is that '???' was able to posses Arthur due to his jealousy over Vivi and Lewis' relationship. However, who he's jealous of is left ambiguous at best. '???' forcing him to push Lewis could be interpreted as either Murder the Hypotenuse (if he's in love with Vivi), or a case of If I Can't Have You… (if he's in love with Lewis). This fits Alternate Character Interpretation better — and "how exactly was Arthur jealous" is actually already there.
- In "Freaking Out", Arthur, who is implied to have amnesia regarding Lewis' death, is shown with a map on his laptop that indicates he's been searching for Lewis since his "disappearance", to the point of exhaustion. In this scene, just as the magic effecting Vivi's memories is editing Lewis out of Arthur's screensaver, the lyrics "-but I'm afraid, afraid of losing you," plays. Again, I can see it.
- The beginning of "Hellbent" is set to the song "Every Note"; the song's lyrics can either be interpreted as a case of Unrequited Love or as someone looking back on a relationship that ended badly. It also has the lyric, "Did you know when I told you that I loved you, baby?" This segment of the episode focuses heavily on Arthur, who has been searching for Lewis. Maybe?
- The titular song of "Hellbent" describes a toxic relationship. Considering it plays while Shiromori and Lewis are hunting down Mystery and Arthur respectively, it makes a lot of sense. Does this even fit Ho Yay?
- "Hellbent" also features a few interactions between Lewis and Arthur that put their feelings for each other into question. During the series of Flashback Cut that beats in and out of the background, two of Lewis' shows Arthur's depressed state over Lewis and Vivi's relationship. However, Arthur is very clearly looking back at where Lewis is during one of these, rather than at Vivi. Meanwhile, at the end, Lewis shows instant regret over tossing Arthur over the edge of the cliff. Enough so that his locket shatters and turns grey, compared to the locket gaining a single crack and turning blue after Arthur pulls Vivi away from him. The part about Arthur looking at Lewis can stay, but Lewis' locket breaks because he realizes he's no better than Arthur and just dropped someone he once called his best friend to his death, which "The Future" makes explicitly clear.
- The beginning of "The Future" features the song "Enemy", which is about two people who were close but have unexpectedly become enemies. It also has the lyrics "The hunt is over/And now you are mine/Hide in shadows gives you safety, baby". The scene also prominently features Lewis's regret over throwing Arthur off before Lance pulls his Big Damn Heroes moment and causes Lewis to briefly turn his anger from his former friend to his uncle. Don't know about this one.
- In Lewis and Arthur's second scene of "The Future", Arthur manages to get a hold of Lewis's locket, causing the image inside to change from just a picture of Lewis with Vivi to one of Lewis and the whole gang. When Lewis takes it back and sees the change, he breaks into tears and falls to his knees. The point behind this scene was that Lewis loved all of them and had forgotten that in his anger. Also I've seen more people use this scene as evidence for Lewis/Vivi/Arthur and not just straight Lewis/Arthur - or is that just a Distinction Without a Difference?
Any thoughts/opinions?
Jawbreakers on sale for 99¢I mostly agree with you on the Mystery Skulls stuff.
Keep the one for "Hellbent". Leaning on deleting "Enemy" because it's a bit specious, but I don't know either. For the last one, in my opinion examples regarding characters having homoerotic attractions even in the context of a bisexual and poly situation still count, so long as the entry is able to explain the homoerotic aspect sufficiently.
I'd also argue that Alternative Character Interpretation can stay on Ho Yay if it's specifically about viewing a relationship as homoerotic in nature, so long as it fits the bill of the criteria I mentioned earlier.
