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Elfive (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#276: Jan 12th 2013 at 3:00:46 PM

We are on a lump of rock. If you can get a working ecosystem here you can get one anywhere.

TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#277: Jan 12th 2013 at 3:25:29 PM

Great that he is a physicist doesn't make him right or reasonable. He has clearly disconnected from the reality that is humanity. His little points show he has no clue how humanity works or behaves. Anyone who can pick up a history book can tell you he has no clue about how humanity tends to interact and behave. Really nothing much has changed in the big picture. He has no clue how much this project would cost in resources alone to get off the ground and the continued support required to keep it going.

Never mind supporting the orbital and space born infrastructure to support it would be costly. Rockets make a lot of pollution. The propellants for example tend be rather toxic. They require a lot of material to construct and launch. There is no such thing as free raw materials. There is a cost in everything.

This plan makes it seem like everything is free and easily recoverable. We know that is not so. His paper was written in 1970's. Let me know when he catches up to the reality of the world and writes one for 2013 or later.

My point on water and atmo still stands. Those materials don't come free and are not easy to simply produce. Same for water. It takes time and energy to do any of this never mind initial raw materials. Every mission we have every launched into space needed the materials on board to succeed. There was nothing to extract or convert.

Never mind it still ignores how difficult it is to work in space. That lack of atmosphere, gravity, and constant exposure to a seriously deadly environment make it difficult to do anything without the use of highly specialized equipment used by specially trained people. Fixing a few loose bolts is a huge deal on the space station. We haven't even finished building the International space station and construction was started in 1988. That is over two decades just to build a simple space station that is only about 70% percent complete. It takes constant supply runs to keep the station stocked and return the personnel to earth periodically.

I am sorry but science, history, and reality have long since marched on since the 1970's. This is 2013 where the cost of space travel is proving to be a strain on even 1st world nations. You know part of the reason the shuttle was scrapped was cost and hazard of continued use right? Right now we are hoping for cheap ways to launch satelites, probes, and possibly various other unmanned craft.

Considering how rare our particular planet and its many varied eco-systems seem to be the chances of being able to create or find another like it is honestly wishful thinking at best at this time. The series of events and odds that led to the creation of earth as a livable habit are staggering. Never mind the number of mass extinction events we have had on our world that came close to snuffing out life as we know it.

Who watches the watchmen?
Elfive (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#278: Jan 12th 2013 at 3:34:34 PM

I'm pretty sure that the current estimates of how may star systems have a planet in the habitable zone that could theoretically support life is somewhere in the region of "all of them".

TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#279: Jan 12th 2013 at 4:06:33 PM

And how many have we found life on? None. Until we do assuming it is easy or common is pure speculation. There is a huge difference between being in a habitable zone and being actually habitable. Never mind life bearing or possible of supporting our form of life in the first place.

Put it to you this way. This guy is promsing Utopia in space to save the earth. Taking everything he is says with a heaping spoon full of salt is more then wise.

It would not be any different than saying we can build fully functional arcologies. The perfectly balanced self contained living environments on earth who can ensure everyones needs are met without fail.

If we can't build it on earth we certainly can't build it in a far more challenging environemnt like space.

Who watches the watchmen?
Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#280: Jan 12th 2013 at 4:47:14 PM

Um... everything our resident Hell Hound as said, basically. <shrugs>

Seriously: that paper is so much pie in the sky, I can practically smell apples and cinnamon. tongue

TenTailsBeast The Ultimate Lifeform from The Culture Since: Feb, 2012
#281: Jan 12th 2013 at 5:32:39 PM

Whatevver. It's clearly technically feasible. And as far as "human nature is infinitely terrible woo-hoo", that's the flimsiest reactionary bullshit ever conceived.

I vowed, and so did you: Beyond this wall- we would make it through.
Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#282: Jan 12th 2013 at 5:43:04 PM

[up]Um... Psychology at uni? About 20 years of both History and Anthropology interest? Incidental Sociology and Economics due to them touching the other subjects?

Oh... and realism/ cynicism, take your pick. tongue

edited 12th Jan '13 5:44:01 PM by Euodiachloris

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#283: Jan 12th 2013 at 6:27:08 PM

In regards to human nature, while I can agree to the idea that there will be small scale governmental units, that's going to be what local government is today. (They will be akin to city states, really.) Space stations will hardly be as independent as any state is today. Space constraints are going to have a heavy toll on how much room they use to grow food, if indeed they do that, versus how many people they'll house. And even then it's an argument of how much vegetable matter versus meat matter they cultivate.

Barkey Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#284: Jan 12th 2013 at 7:14:52 PM

To have enough sway to really be an independent station-state, the station would need to serve a valuable enough function to where it had something worth trading, be it commodity or service. The only real route to independence would be if a station could function as a viable business and bring in a profit.

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#285: Jan 12th 2013 at 7:19:27 PM

I shall now picture many of these stations essentially being competing casinos. Vegas is space, baby!

But seriously, a lot of them will probably be things like mining outposts where they can process such materials.

Joesolo Indiana Solo Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Indiana Solo
#286: Jan 12th 2013 at 8:02:15 PM

I think chances are they will be governed, or at least have a kind of guild system, whether they like it or not. A rouge station-state, no matter how powerful, wouldn't be able to stand against a earth-based space power.

I'm baaaaaaack
TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#287: Jan 12th 2013 at 8:04:19 PM

Heh. I like the idea of the Space Casinos. If they could ever get them actually working maybe they could create ones that specialize in exotic environs. Tourism and research all rolled into one project. One for the tropics, another for swamps, another for deserts, another for jungles. Would be interesting if they could replicate conditions from earth.

Who watches the watchmen?
Nohbody "In distress", my ass. from Somewhere in Dixie Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Mu
"In distress", my ass.
#288: Jan 12th 2013 at 8:45:55 PM

^ Another place for Native Americans to go to work? grin

I mean, on Earth they're already doing the casino thing, and at one point (dunno about now) they weren't all that uncommon in construction crews given something of a tendency to be less afraid of heights... and you really can't get much higher up than "in orbit". tongue

All your safe space are belong to Trump
Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#289: Jan 12th 2013 at 9:33:38 PM

they weren't all that uncommon in construction crews given something of a tendency to be less afraid of heights...

That's a few pretty specific tribes.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
Nohbody "In distress", my ass. from Somewhere in Dixie Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Mu
"In distress", my ass.
#290: Jan 12th 2013 at 9:41:23 PM

I didn't mean it was a universal trait. Poor wording on my part combined with not looking up the specifics.

All your safe space are belong to Trump
Gaunt88 from Australia Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#291: Jan 13th 2013 at 7:14:13 PM

Regarding the Mars One colony plan posted a few pages ago - I was reading a different article about this just now, and I thought it sounded pretty cool... until I saw that they'll be deciding the candidate by a global vote / reality TV show to help fund the project.

I really hope that this was just the journo taking liberties with wording, because I sure as hell wouldn't trust joe public to decide my permanent mars colony crew >=/

Joesolo Indiana Solo Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Indiana Solo
#292: Jan 13th 2013 at 7:19:14 PM

"I sure as hell wouldn't trust joe"

I resent that remark! tongue

but yea. that'd be the dumbest thing in the history or really dumb things.

I'm baaaaaaack
Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#293: Jan 13th 2013 at 7:21:52 PM

Using a basic live documentary and calling it a reality show would be fine. It would be perfect, actually. You'd be insane to not record everything for the sake of history, may as well make money off it in the here and now. But if they actually make it into a reality show, with challenges and audience voting...then yeah, no.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#294: Jan 13th 2013 at 7:48:32 PM

There seem to be a lot of companies trying somewhat out there ideas for getting into space. Frankly, I found their timetable predictions incredibly optimistic, though the basic idea was very interesting.

tricksterson Never Trust from Behind you with an icepick Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Never Trust
#295: Jan 16th 2013 at 6:52:44 AM

One step closer to private space stations?

edited 16th Jan '13 6:53:06 AM by tricksterson

Trump delenda est
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#296: Jan 16th 2013 at 12:08:39 PM

[up]Interesting although I am now expecting to see commercials about how Bigelow is now the official tea of NASA.tongue

It really does make you think.

edited 16th Jan '13 12:08:44 PM by Kostya

IraTheSquire Since: Apr, 2010
#297: Jan 16th 2013 at 12:40:29 PM

One of the things that kept me thinking: why do we have to live in space when space station comes up. Wouldn't it be just as beneficial to grow crops in space station (provided we found a means of easy travel between Earth and the geostationary stations)? For one, we don't need a large number of people in space because crops growing and harvesting can be automated, and we can use the extra land for something else.

Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#298: Jan 16th 2013 at 1:47:46 PM

Because the biggest barrier to space travel is moving from the Earth to orbit. So you're dodging exactly the wrong problem.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#299: Jan 16th 2013 at 5:13:20 PM

There's no economical point to growing shit in space as compared to digging a huge hive under ground and setting up a massive three dimensional hydroponics or other artificial growth system. Industry strikes me as more likely since dumping gaseous crap in a certain direction is much less of a problem in a vacuum.

Fight smart, not fair.
IraTheSquire Since: Apr, 2010
#300: Jan 16th 2013 at 6:10:01 PM

[up][up] But moving non-living crap between orbit and Earth is still easier than moving people, right? At least the safety margins can be loosened a bit.

[up] That works too, and maybe even better because some factories can be automated so you end up sending mostly machine up into orbit with only a handful of maintenance workers.

edited 16th Jan '13 6:11:52 PM by IraTheSquire


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