The Grand Unified Appearance Trope Clean-up:

Have it not be as tonally distant from the main wiki as Sugar and Darth are which are yes mostly audience reaction zones.

But just have it try to discuss visual tropes like design and color palettes instead of narrative tropes like plot and character.

That way you can still look at these for some amount of rigor, but without the same standards as a plot device. A hat is not a plot device without attaching a story thrust to it. But hats can be meaningful to someone who works in design, or costume, or make up, or paint for different reasons. That could be a thing.

Same thing with like eye to hair color matching. Drop the Significant from Green Eyed Red Head, and just let the matching of Red and Green be a visual design element instead of a story point.

like shouldn't we axe this TLP if visual tropes aren't a thing despite the fact that it has 16 votes to launch: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/discussion.php?id=m001twxhdmxd6rox2879ewkh

essentially amounts that cute wings exist on cute characters or in cute artstyles. Especially if it's the artstyle, that's a visual trope with no narrative meaning.

Edited by acrobox on Feb 24th 2020 at 11:41:21 AM

The issue is that most Appearance Tropes are meaningless factoids that do nothing but take up space. The goal here is to get good tropes out of the bad ones if possible, not to remove all appearance tropes forever.

Art-styles are tropes, as shown by things like Thin-Line Animation. It's not about the character's appearances, but about how the art is actually drawn, and that actually influences a work.

The other examples you cite are tropes we fixed and made better. On their own, they were useless.

Oh, and we have Red/Green Contrast already.

You may want to do some more research into this subject, and I'm not saying that to be mean, but to be honest.

Edited by WarJay77 on Feb 24th 2020 at 2:45:41 PM

Well, I know Blonde, Brunette, Redhead and Curtains Match the Window are purely visually and a mod has said in the past on this thread that the former is a visual contrast trope and the trope description specifically says that it is not about personality types. That doesnt really sit well with me because every example is "Alice, is the blonde, Carol is the brunette and Diane is the redhead" which doesnt look good to me on trope lists. At least Hair-Contrast Duo also focused on contrasting personalities but thats neither here nor there.

Curtains on the other hand, only seems to be worth noting if its an artistic quirk and almost every one has it. I dont think it means much for one or two characters to be listed within a work while everyone else has different eye and hair colors. Also mundane things like brown/black hair and eyes shouldnt count as that's something mundane.

But yeah a wiki for that stuff isnt needed. It will be a ZCE haven and not much more than that. That doesnt strike me as something thats interesting like Darth and Sugar wiki

Edited by MacronNotes on Feb 25th 2020 at 3:01:18 PM

@Morning Star 1337 It seems that way. I feel like I play devil's advocate a lot. I like to give things a chance, even if it's a TLP draft with no examples, but a definition that I understand immediately and makes me wonder how we didn't already have it.

Which is why Nice Hat stands out to me so much. It's utterly pervasive, but doesn't seem to actually have any identity. The image and caption bugs me too. I know it's trying to have fun, but it does nothing to fight the problem. What about the hat is not to be trifled with? What does that have to do with the trope? It's just an odd hat.

I actually think the image is a good example of something potentially worth troping because it's not just a hat, it's an extremely unusual hat, but nothing about the caption or name or description focus on that idea.

I didn't notice it earlier, but the Laconic is just as bad. "Impressive headgear." Could a Laconic get more vague than that? Anything could be considered impressive, and that seemed to be the excuse for the example in my previous post.

I don't mean to hijack this, since the topic is Hair Decorations at the moment, but I think it's relevant to the solution for that. There's been a lot of suggestions on how to mention Nice Hat in the description for Signature Headgear, but that's part of what brought me here. How to even relate Nice Hat to Signature Headgear necessitates figuring out what Nice Hat even is to mention how they're connected. I'll try not to push more for now, but figuring this out feels like the next step.

Edited by Jokubas on Feb 25th 2020 at 1:00:03 AM

I don't consider this a hijack at all, since it's very relevant to the issue at hand.

thats why I have been holding off mentioning it on the TLP for SH. Theres no real way for me to describe and in my opinion, Signature Headgear is what Nice Hat should have been from the start which is hat associated with character + personality.

I think Nice Hat should just be a disambig or a redirect to Cranium Coverings. It is super ingrained in wiki culture and has tons of inbounds and wicks so its best it doesnt get cut

Edited by MacronNotes on Feb 25th 2020 at 4:04:08 AM

Ah okay. That's what I was thinking as well, but I wasn't sure if it was best to post about that there (because it's relevant to that draft) or here (because it's the tip of the iceberg for another trope) and ended up choosing here.

Edit: Also, I forgot to mention, along the lines of the devil's advocate thing... I've actually been willing to give appearance tropes the benefit of the doubt most of the time, which is why I'm not normally around here. I don't have any specific arguments at the moment, and that's part of the reason I'm not defending anything that we've gotten rid of, but it really shows the contrast for me.

Maybe I look the other way for appearance tropes normally because a specific pair of colors can have artistic relevance, even if they don't have narrative relevance, and I do enough art to blur the two. But "character has a hat" barely even has artistic relevance.

Since you don't mind, I guess I'll also add this. Incidentally, I still didn't do a wick check or anything, but I clicked on one of the subpages just to see if maybe I've been overreacting.

The image, again, at least shows something unusual, but the first examples don't give a good impression, being textbook ZCEs.

The first example on the Anime & Manga page just links elsewhere. The second example just says that a character wears "one" and another character has a "nice one".

The fourth example just says that a character has "one" and that other characters wear hats, but "not all necessarily nice ones", with no elaboration.

The next example is a bit different, but it just talks about how cool it is to earn a fedora by attaining a certain rank, and then claims that the proof that it's nice (aside from the implication that fedoras are innately nice hats) is that the character doesn't want it damaged and puts it back on after a fight. It doesn't seem to me that someone not wanting their new property (which apparently also doubles as a status symbol) to be damaged is unusual.

At the same time, I think that could be a trope (if it isn't already), the tendency for characters to be particularly protective of their hats (Indiana Jones reaching back for his under a door, Luffy keeping track of his keepsake, etc.) does seem to be a thing.

Edited by Jokubas on Feb 25th 2020 at 1:27:50 AM

^ Most of Nice Hat's that aren't gushing about the hat's design are examples of Never Bareheaded and Signature Head Gear. The Luffy and Indiana Jones examples can be rewritten to fit either trope.

Another topic but still related. So I noticed that a few examples to her decorations use it to signal that a character is the youngest, childish, or most femme in a group. Is it tropeworthy enough to have a trope about accessories and headgear that signify that?

For Luffy and Indiana, the hat is also a #1 Dime

While I can see the logic behind it (hair decs -> cuter -> more femme/childish), I don't think that's always the case, particularly when talking about groups.

Trust me, Nice Hat is a pain when trying to clean up character pages. It's everywhere, and it's always just something like:

• Nice Hat: They wear a baseball cap.

I can't mark this as a ZCE since it's technically not, but it's also...not helpful. Hair Decorations is the same deal, but that'll be resolved soon.

I agree with making Nice Hat the next thing we tackle. We won't be so nice, though.

Regarding the Signature Headgear TLP, I'd suggest to postpone the launch until we can decide what to do with Nice Hat.

Agreed.

On that note regarding Macron's post, I think it could be possible, but it might had been the original purpose of the trope and thus would likely need very specific writing to avoid the same misuse. I also think group examples could be allowed, particularly with Magical Girls and Idols, but mostly in cases where they are a rarity among other groups of such that don't use them

Edited by MorningStar1337 on Feb 25th 2020 at 5:23:42 AM

I suppose I can can hold off launching. It will take us until the middle of the year to take down a Trope of Legend with upwards towards 9000 wicks like Nice Hat. But maybe I can start a crowner after we clean Hair Decorations? Also, Imma fo an example analysis of Nice Hats examples on my sandbox and post it here when I am done

As for , yeah allowing groups can work under specific stances. I think a character wearing an accessory that emphasizes youth/cuteness/immaturity or they deliberately wear it for that appeal might have merit. Thats closer to what Hair Decorations wanted to be

Edited by MacronNotes on Feb 25th 2020 at 8:34:35 AM

Well, if we redefine Nice Hat as any hat with some unique flair, like how I think Cool Crown is any crown beyond a simple piece of metal...

Although, Gem Encrusted Crown might be a interesting Sub-Trope...

Then that baseball cap isn't an example because there's nothing beyond a plain baseball cap.

If the color was remarkable, like Neon Green, let's say, then it'd count, in my opinion.

Any thoughts on that?

...

In regards to Hair Decorations... For Transformation Sequences... If they add hair decorations, then that's something of note about the decorations themselves, that they're magically generated.

Edited by Malady on Feb 25th 2020 at 5:55:11 AM

"Unique flair" seems vague and not really distinct form Signature Headgear. Do you mean really elaborate hats, like a Pimped Out Hat? I could get behind that.

Cool Crown is about crowns as a symbol of importance, and characters who are royals having crowns as part of their everyday wear, even though royals don't do that all the time in real life.

How are we supposed to dewick Hair Decorations without launching Signature Headgear? Surely there must be some examples that could be moved.

Cool Crown may need a rename if that's the case.

- Well, once you launch, you dewick the dupes, since it's a sub-concept.

- We already have Requisite Royal Regalia...

...

Like, if the narration never calls it more than a baseball cap then it's not Nice Hat, but if they describe it in Costume Porn detail, like "300 thread count", then that level of detail makes it at least a subversion if it turns out the cap is ordinary.

Especially since Nice Hat is a Costume Porn Sub-Trope.

Edited by Malady on Feb 25th 2020 at 6:17:44 AM

So if Nice Hat is supposed to be an over the top/elaborate hat, does that means that it's relationship Signature Headgear is more like a sister trope or just a related trope in general?

People have said that Nice Hat is the supertrope of Signature Hat but that latter more of an offspring of Distinctive Appearances and Meaningful Appearance than anything else. The redefined and possibly renamed Nice Hat would be a Costume Porn subtrope

I think A hat trope could happen if its important in someway to the Protagonist.

High overlap. A character could have a signature hat by just being the only one to wear it. No detail required.

...

Costume Porn is literally saying it's the Nice Hat Super-Trope right now.

Nice Hat trope itself is rather vague right now, though. It can have the narrative or the camera focus on its niceness (part of Costume Porn), or it can work as an "emblem" to a character (part of Signature Headgear or Iconic Outfit).

Then again... I have to say that the examples of the subtropes of Costume Porn aren't always written following CP's "guideline": that the written narrative, or the camera/scene, has to put a particular attention to it. A lot of the time, they're just "visually striking".

Though I need to add the note that there is a trope within being "visually striking". Distinctive Appearances is part of it. Of course, any example of "visually striking X" (Nice Hat is one of them) has to explain how it is visually striking.

Requisite Royal Regalia is broader than Cool Crown, as it includes scepters, capes, etc. in addition to crowns. That's the main difference as far as I can see.

We already have Hat of Authority for hats that convey status.

I think Nice Hat only really works as a Costume Porn trope if it's just for either really fancy, frilly, elaborate hats, or maybe those tiny hats that people pin to their hair that don't do anything. Wearing a fedora or knit cap isn't costume porn, as these are part of normal streetwear depending on the time period and can easily be depicted with a minimalist art style.

After mulling it over, I don't think we need to wait to decide what to do with Nice Hat to launch Signature Headgear. Nice Hat, as written is super vague and doesn't even focus on the aspects of what makes the Signature Headgear trope. It will also make wick cleaning Hair Decorations easier since quite a few wicks that do have useful context might find a home in the Signature Headgear trope (also dont feel like removing and storing Hair Dec wicks, only to put them back when Signature Headgear launches)

If anyone is confused by Signature Headgear's relation to Nice Hat, we can just refer them to this thread so they can join in on the discussion.

Edited by MacronNotes on Feb 26th 2020 at 10:46:55 AM