TLP Crash Rescue - Fixing prematurely launched TLPs and pages

I just cutlisted Appeal To Morality. It's just too bad; not worth losing time over.

The gist of my suggestion was that we should cut all rogue tropes, to force the creators to put them through YKTTW. New rogue tropes are appearing daily and I don't think this thread is very effective at dealing with them. A clean up thread is not an adequate substitute for a YKTTW discussion.

I could bring Doomed Hurt Guy to YKTTW; but if the trope page is not cut, then Kooshmeister will probably not care for the YKTTW and it likely will just get lost on the back pages of YKKTW. I also would be okay with carrying the examples from Faint Moment over to Fainting (and make new softsplit categories for them); only I think, as an expansion of the definition of Fainting, this should actually be discussed somewhere. By giving our approval to pages unilaterally created by lone tropers, we are effectively promoting the circumventing of YKTTW.

edited 27th Aug '14 1:19:24 PM by LordGro

Hyper Focused Crowd, as well as its laconic, are now on the cutlist. (I didn't have to unlaunch it because it was never actually launched.)

Cutting badly-made rogue tropes? Sure, unless someone who has both the time and the inclination volunteers to shepherd it. But just because it's rogue doesn't mean it's bad. Cutting good tropes pages simply becuase they were made without YKTTW is cutting off our nose to spite our face. The official policy is, after all, "YKTTW is strongly suggested, and a very good idea" not "You absolutely must YKKTW any new trope page."

@Maddie: Who is that aimed at? Me, Lord Gro, valozzy, or someone else?

Baby Morph Episode - launched with 2 hats. YKTTW hadn't had any discussion since January.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/discussion.php?id=sfqtsauei29b7untg772y642&trope=BabyMorphEpisode

The trope list is pretty good, but the description seems rather brief.

Go ahead and cut Hyper Focused Crowd. You don't need my permission, I have no complaints. It's a wiki.

I've been on this wiki for a long time. Back when if you had an idea you just made the page and if it didn't work out it would just fade away. It's hard to keep up with all the rules and changes, etc. For those of us who don't hit the forums (I only have so much time in my day) rules and changes to policy are hard to keep track of. YKTTW is a great idea but the rare times I launch something there almost no one comments on it, and if they do it's rarely constructive.

I'm not complaining - every enterprise becomes more complicated with time.

^^^ It was in response to Lord Gro.

edited 27th Aug '14 3:46:30 PM by Madrugada

@pittsburghmuggle: You do realize this doesn't mean the trope is necessarily gone for good? The YKTTW you started is still there. It can still be bumped, collect examples and hats, and then make it back onto the wiki.

@Foxxy mod: Okay, thanks.

(Now I'm tempted to sandbox a trope idea I've had bouncing in my head for some time, since I didn't want to take it through YKTTW without knowing when the page creation/namespace overhaul was going to be implemented. And to be fair, you guys (the mods) have given off the impression that YKTTW is mandatory for new tropes a few times before.)

At one point, briefly, it was mandatory, but that has since been relaxed.

Personally I think the relaxing was a poor choice, but I'm not worked up over it enough to engage in that particular battle.

edited 27th Aug '14 8:19:34 PM by Nohbody

The problem with new tropes is, predictably, what we do with them if nobody is coming forward with a YKTTW (or for that matter, what to do with the prematurely launched pages while they are in YKTTW. My personal opinion is cutting).

Anyhow, worklist for today - some items are 3 days old:

• Backbeat Switch: I see some cut consensus forming, but not much. Any more?
• College Reunion Group: Stub work page; creator messaged.
• Doomed Hurt Guy: We've reached an impasse there, I see. Needs more opinions.
• The Kindness of Strangers: Stub trope.
• Hyperdimension Neptunia Re;Birth1: Stub work page; creator messaged.
• Magical Guide: Cut and re-YKTTW.
• The Matrix Path Of Neo: As mentioned in the other thread, that is not the right place, ~Hea G.
• Mid Air Refueling: Re-YKTTWed; we probably should cut the current page.
• Serial Dater: Stubby trope.
• Slappy To See You: As I indicated in the YKTTW, this is not a good name. Any objections to cutting the page and re-launching it under another name?
• Violently Protective Boyfriend: Stub trope; cut?
• The Weakest Link: Stub work page; creator messaged.
• When In Rome Do As I Do: Still inclined to cut.

Are recap pages allowed to be stubs - or do the same rules apply for them? I've come across a few stubby ones during the hyphen migration.

Also, The Apathetic was mentioned on here a while ago - anyone know what its medium is - it isn't mentioned on the page.

edited 28th Aug '14 3:13:24 AM by TheOneWhoTropes

I did make a Video Game's page for it, there's three now - a The Matrix: Path of Neo one, the Main page and the Videogame's page that just says Matrix Path of Neo. Can you cut that Main and Matrix Path of Neo page please, since they're not needed ?

I indexed the VG one, check the index to make sure it's there if you want. The Matrix: Path of Neo, now, has nine crosswicks in the various videogame tropes and such thanks to others and myself.

edited 28th Aug '14 7:59:31 AM by HeaG

First off, a note about the cutlist; it's currently got 449 entries. Let's hope that it doesn't accumulate more.

I guess, given the scarce recent input, that WMG.Deus Angst Machina and Doomed Hurt Guy are processed. With The Hypnotizers, they didn't even bother to index or crosswick their pages.

The Apathetic was discussed in other places as well. Even after extensive Googling, I can't find evidence that it actually exists.

Otherwise, worklist:

• Ali G Rezurection: Stub work page; creator messaged.
• Bad Day on the Midway: Stub work page; creator messaged.
• Flappy Bird Syndrome: Badly launched trope with no YKTTW, bad title and only one example by ~Tropers/{{Tropesmanisready!}}; I am inclined to cut altogether.
• Iron Hearts: Stub work page; creator messaged.
• The November Man: Stub work page; creator messaged.

@Madrugada:

And that is actually a policy I do not understand. My understanding is that in 98 of 100 cases, we want new tropes to go through YKTTW. If we tell new tropers who are fidgeting to make new trope pages that "YKTTW is recommended, but not mandatory", what will stay in their head is "YKTTW is not needed", and that will probably parse as "never mind YKTTW". Which is the opposite of the message we are trying to send.

My concern is that they can be good and yet still need work. A 'well-made' rogue trope can have problems too; they just may be not as obvious as bad formatting, a stubby description, or spelling errors. It may be a duplicate of an already existing trope, it may misuse or misrepresent other tropes in the trope description, or it may fail to mention related tropes (sister tropes, supertropes, subtropes) that already exist on the wiki. Its definition may be too narrow, because the creator based his description only on a handful of examples that are similar and did not take the full range of possible variations into account.

For any single reader without any previous investment in the page (which the participants of this thread usually are), catching such errors is pure luck. Detecting such problems requires an in-depth examination of/research into a trope. We don't usually have the time for that. (At least, not at the rate at which new rogue tropes appear.)

YKTTW does a much better job at detecting such problems, because a lot more people will check the draft and will, for example, mention similar tropes they have seen on the wiki. YKTTW is also good for collecting examples, and since tropers usually try to interpret the trope as loosely as possible, it will probably become apparent if the sponsor had a too-narrow concept of the trope. It's also the place to discuss the trope name. A trope draft may be good and yet have a bad name. Changing the name of an existing trope is usually more time-consuming than discussing the name in YKTTW before launching, plus it requires a TRS.

It's for these reasons that I think YKTTW should be mandatory. The only case I can think of when YKTTW seems unnecessary is when existing trope pages are split up per TRS decision. Other than that, I feel there should be no way to bypass YKTTW except by mod power.

edited 29th Aug '14 8:00:28 AM by LordGro

Just for reference, it was Eddie who said that he didn't want YKTTW to become mandatory.

Now, unless that changes, we need a method to deal with bad but not immediately cutworthy tropes launched without YKTTW if nobody is coming forward to re-YKTTW it.

Anyhow, worklist:

• American Horror Story: Freak Show: Stub work page; creator messaged.
• The Emerald Party: Is this a work, a trope or what?
• Film Strip Appearance: Stub trope without YKTTW or examples; I am inclined to cut. Also, that editor has already created problem pages, which is why I'll file an Ask The Tropers report.
• Gameshow Marathon: Stub work page; creator messaged.
• Hyperdimension Neptunia Re;Birth2 SISTERS GENERATION: Stub work page; creator messaged.
• Malcolm: Stub work page.
• Twisted Cogs: Stub work page; creator messaged.

I am also summarizing all the tropes that are currently in this thread Baby Morph Episode, Doomed Hurt Guy, Faint Moment, Ground Wave, Film Strip Appearance, The Kindness of Strangers, Magical Guide, Mid Air Refueling (currently in YKTTW), One-Eyed Shot, Serial Dater, Slappy To See You (currently in YKTTW) and When In Rome Do As I Do.

Finally, does anybody else agree on Video Games to a) remove works that have already more specific indexes and b) to strip out the subbbulleting and put everything on first-level bullets?

The evening report (which also includes a request for commentary on the other pages mentioned above):

• Characteristic Tropes: Unindexed index; also, it sounds like a random conglomerate of various person-associated tropes.
• Into the Storm (2014): Stub work page; creator messaged.
• Seconds from Disaster: Stub work page; creator messaged. I may improve it by myself since I know the show.
• SelfDemonstrating.Spiderman: Blank page created by ~Phoenixion for some reason.

The character page for Absolute Despair Girls was a stub that had one sentence character descriptions and most of the character entries lacked tropes. I've deleted the content and plan to post a proper, fully contented version later. Just like it taken down for now.

edited 30th Aug '14 3:37:32 PM by EternityofSpirits

NEVER blank pages. If you want a page cut, use the Cut List. Page blanking is nearly always considered vandalism.

A short evening worklist, so it's gonna be only cursory:

• Good Fortune from God: A trope without YKTTW by ~intersection786. It could use some crosswicking and the description compacting.
• Sliding Scale Of Western Animation Obscurity: Another, but considerably less finished, trope page without YKTTW by ~Ford1114.
• South Park: I am sceptical of having a Franchise/ page without a trope list; by ~Tiny Ted Danson.

Also, still some unanswered issues around in the previous posts.

Serial Dater: cut as it is a stub, not indexed and full od ZCE

Doomed Hurt Guy: cut for lack of cooperation from its creator

Not sure if I'll have time to comment this week.

edited 1st Sep '14 4:20:50 PM by XFllo

Scorntex made Characters.Ultimate X-Men, I Pm'ed him about not making stuff on hyphenated titles, but never received an answer, and he did not move the page as I asked. He edited after I sent him the PM, so he has been on the wiki. Even worse is the rest of Ultimate X Men is on unhyphenated titles.

Baby Morph Episode: Cut.

Doomed Hurt Guy: Cut

Faint Moment: Cut

Ground Wave: I don't know. If someone will shepherd it through YKTTW, I think there's a good trope there.

Film Strip Appearance: Cut

The Kindness of Strangers: Cut

Magical Guide: Cut

One-Eyed Shot: Cut.

Serial Dater: cut

When In Rome Do As I Do: cut.

So, today no bad page creations, so I'll take a look at the last 3 days of business...

• Baby Morph Episode: That page will need crosswicking if we keep it, and a longer description. I'll see if I can call ~Goops World.
• Characteristic Tropes: I am still a bit unclear on what the index is supposed to cover.
• Doomed Hurt Guy: Lord Gro proposed himself to run the page through YKTTW; X Fllo supported a cut as well. I think we can do that.
• Faint Moment: Lord Gro suggested that merging it into Fainting would require discussion since the latter trope would require a bit of a redefinition; Madrugada supports a cut and the discussion page as well (or a merge into Fainting).
• Film Strip Appearance: I and Madrugada motioned for a cut, and given that it has only 2 examples that should be a cut and dried case.
• Ground Wave: Most of the support is for re-YKTTW'ing if anything.
• The Kindness of Strangers: There is both a cut motion and a re-YKTTW one.
• Magical Guide: Two cut motions and one re-YKTTW motion (by Morgenthaler).
• Mid Air Refueling: YKTTW. Lots of votes in favour of removal; since it's in YKTTW now I think we can drop the current article.
• One-Eyed Shot: Several cut motions and the editor in question seems to be now aware of YKTTW. Seems like a case for messaging them and the cutlist.
• Serial Dater: Larkmarn, Madrugada and X Fllo have expressed cut propositions. Seeing the example quality, I cannot disagree.
• Slappy To See You: It's got a better name in YKTTW and several cut motions - so I think we can roll with cut.
• When In Rome Do As I Do: Some cut motions.

Also, if I get time, I'll try to expand on Seconds from Disaster.

On the Ultimate X-Men article I messaged them as well. Thanks for moving it, anyhow.

Is The Hypnotizers not cut yet? Is there any reason for that?

I do not like cutlisting stuff without some clear agreement here. Hence it's not on the cutlist yet.

Anyhow, giving a late evening worklist, since tomorrow I'll be busy trying to construct a hotspot volcano chain with each volcano having a volume of 105000 km³ - much harder than it looks:

• Captain Britain: Someone tried to make a redirect, then blanked it - and someone else then put that stub there.
• Der Postillon: Stub work page; creator messaged.
• Seconds from Disaster: Sorry for not working on it; I'll try again tomorrow.