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For best results, please include why you think an example is iffy in your first post.

Also, many oft-misused tropes/topics have their own threads, such as Surprisingly Realistic Outcome (here) and Fan-Preferred Couple (here). Tropers are better able to give feedback on examples you bring up to specific threads. We don't discuss Complete Monster or Magnificent Bastard examples; please don't bring them up.

Edited by SeptimusHeap on Jul 17th 2025 at 8:59:01 PM

laserviking42 from End-World Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
#19051: Mar 13th 2022 at 9:34:50 PM

This example from Monochrome Casting (bold emphasis mine):

  • Seinfeld is frequently mentioned for the rarity of minority characters who appear. However, the random "person on the street" bit parts are often some sort of minority. Showrunner Larry David would winkingly own up to it in his later series Curb Your Enthusiasm in the episode "Affirmative Action", in which a Black woman brings up that there were no Black people on Seinfeld. However, George had an Asian-American love interest in an episode, while Jerry had an American Indian one in another, and Kramer had a Black girlfriend for an episode. There were also reoccurring minority characters such as Pakistani immigrant Babu Bhatt, the Black manager at Monk's, George's Black boss Mr. Morgan, and Kramer's Black lawyer Jackie Chiles. Not to mention other characters who had an important role in an episode, such as "The Millennium" or "The Hot Tub."

My question is, do all those minor characters count towards averting the trope? If so, then I feel the example should be deleted. If not, then the bolded section should go.

This isn't the only example like this on the page, the Friends also lists out the minor POC characters. There are a ton of examples that likewise get real defensive and make it seem like the example is arguing against itself.

I didn't choose the troping life, the troping life chose me
MyFinalEdits Delete message from Parts Unknown (Spin-off Series) Relationship Status: Cast away
Delete message
#19052: Mar 13th 2022 at 10:49:42 PM

The bolded part can go, at least, so I support its removal.

135 -> 180 -> 273 -> 191 -> 188 -> 230 -> 300 -> 311
Jayalaw Since: Feb, 2014
#19053: Mar 14th 2022 at 7:13:11 AM

Regarding if Mei is an abusive mother, I wholeheartedly believe yes. She does have a pattern:

1) Cuts down Mei's interests if they do not align with school, temple chores, or filial piety. When Mei asks nicely to go to a concert, she makes a legitimate point that Mei could transform but then belittles 4*Town by calling their music trashy. Mei also hides her sketchbook from her mother in a panic, implying that her mom doesn't think highly of her drawing talent.

2) Regularly overreacts if there is a hint that Mei is stepping a toe out of line, and embarrassing her in public while congratulating herself for being a good parent. Case in point is the scene with Devon, where she's oblivious to the fact that Mei is begging her to stop. There is also the fact that she assaults and batters a security guard at school, a Nice Guy who kindly tells her that she can't watch her daughter from behind a tree. Is that normal behavior?

3) When Mei finally hits her Rage Breaking Point and goes to the concert, Ming loses her temper and starts thrashing everything in sight. She nearly maims Mei with her giant paws and comes close to stomping her while hunting her down. Losing control of your temper is not an excuse especially when the person receiving the blows or being painfully grabbed is much smaller and more vulnerable.

4) Isolates her from her friends. Mei doesn't even have permission to hang out after school with her friends, having to go straight home for chore duties. When Ming realizes that Mei sneaks out, she accuses her friends of dragging Mei into the side hustle.

I know this probably won't change any opinions but as someone who grew up with a parent that was like Ming, it felt very accurate. Therapy and some good friends had to tell me that the behavior wasn't normal, it was abusive. So from a personal stance, it feels like Ming's behavior is normalized if you take away the term "abusive". Ming means well, but her actions are not healthy and would have traumatized Mei down the line if not for the events of the movie giving her a wakeup call. I'm not the only one: several sources say the same thing. It would feel like not mentioning this would be erasing the baggage that people like me still carry.

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#19054: Mar 14th 2022 at 10:58:01 AM

Mmmm, maybe you have a point? I haven't seen the film yet, personally (but I don't mind spoilers much obviously). I was going off of what the example said.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
MacronNotes (she/her) (Captain) Relationship Status: Less than three
(she/her)
#19055: Mar 14th 2022 at 11:05:57 AM

I never watched the movie but if there's enough evidence in the film that suggests that among is abusive towards Mei, then I guess it counts as example. Please note that what you and other people's experiences doesn't factor into the example being well, an example of the trope though.

Macron's notes
Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#19056: Mar 14th 2022 at 11:15:06 AM

I think there's a deeper conversation to be had about authorial intent/validity when troping abusive behaviors (I remember we had to ask that question in the TRS that gave us Fetishized Abuser, because sometimes writers genuinely don't realize they wrote their sexy alpha-male boyfriend as abusive, and of course media attitudes to it are constantly changing etc). Of note, the page on Abusive Parents says the line between abuse and heavy-handed parenting or smothering is subject to Values Dissonance, but the trope description (not the real-life definition of abuse) focuses largely on extreme behaviors (physical, explicit verbal, sexual, straight-up murder). This is one of those examples that straddles that line.

I'm still not really convinced it's an example and that she's intended to be a My Beloved Smother exaggerated for comedy (again, not minimizing your experience but talking about how the film portrays it). If anything it could be an Unfortunate Implications entry, but with a better citation than a Tumblr post.

If we are going by audience reaction, googling "turning red "abusive"" brings up no other reviews making that point and our very page for it in the first batch of results, which makes me think it's not really a common interpretation of her actions either. To compare, I don't think she's any better or worse than ''Encanto's Abuela, who was also subject to this question.

If it's kept, it should be rewritten to focus less on the Magic Kaiju because realistic attitudes and emotions do not intersect well with stuff like that (cough cough Reality Ensues cleanup) and more on the patterns of her mundane behavior.

Edited by Synchronicity on Mar 14th 2022 at 1:18:21 PM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#19057: Mar 14th 2022 at 11:16:40 AM

Huh, I'm suddenly wondering if we could use some sort of YMMV trope for "Ambiguously Abusive". Debates like these are pretty common.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#19058: Mar 14th 2022 at 11:21:33 AM

I have...complicated feelings on this as an audience reactionnote  but it might work with some elbow grease.

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#19059: Mar 14th 2022 at 11:23:59 AM

Yeah, it'd be complicated, it just struck me as something that comes up a lot. Or we just file it all under Alternative Character Interpretation and move on.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#19060: Mar 14th 2022 at 11:38:42 AM

That sounds valid. I think Mei's mom is sympathetic but her behavior definitely was toxic, especially regarding Mei's friends. It's just up to the audience whether she could be seen as actually outright abusive despite authorial intent. (Note that opinions on overprotective parenting of this sort being abusive tend to vary a lot in general. It's a touchy subject, and one that is a bit personal for me as well.)

Honestly I think My Beloved Smother implies this sort of behavior and its potential for abuse (most examples are quite toxic) well enough already.

Edited by mightymewtron on Mar 14th 2022 at 2:40:58 PM

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
MrMediaGuy2 Since: Jun, 2015
#19061: Mar 14th 2022 at 11:43:57 AM

It's worth noting that Mei's mother is Chinese, so there could be some Deliberate Values Dissonance there.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#19062: Mar 14th 2022 at 11:56:53 AM

While I am abstractly sympathetic to people who find fictional behaviors triggering to their pet issues and/or personal traumas, such people should not be allowed to dominate the conversation around a work, nor use sites like TV Tropes to vent. That's what this feels like: venting. It's not productive, and we're already too friendly towards venting (in my opinion).

Edited by Fighteer on Mar 14th 2022 at 2:57:31 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Jayalaw Since: Feb, 2014
#19063: Mar 14th 2022 at 12:08:15 PM

I propose these rewrites then, depending on which gets approved.

  • Abusive Mom: Ming means well, but she ticks off a lot of the boxes for emotional abuse regarding how she treats her only daughter. Her anger management issues in real life would have gotten her arrested considering what happened with the security guard, and Mei is hurt when the rage affects her. Even Miriam notes this and keeps telling Mei that her mother's behavior isn't healthy. Ming isolates Mei from her friends, not letting her hang out with them after school and berating them when she finds out about their red panda side hustle. She belittles Mei's interests, from art to boy bands, and says that the music Mei likes is "trashy". Jin is disappointed in her for this one when Mei walks off sadly, as Ming angrily asks him if she's the only person that sees something wrong with Mei wanting to go to a concert with her friends. And of course, the way that she rummages through Mei's notebook just screams "no sense of boundaries" as Mei begs her to stop, especially with how her response to seeing the drawings of Devon is to drive to the Daisy Mart and accuse him of seducing her underage daughter, oblivious to how everyone in the store points and laughs at Mei. The ending at least shows that Ming got a Jerkass Realization about all these points and gives Mei more space, boundaries, and respect, but it's unclear how it will affect their relationship in the long run.

  • Alternative Character Interpretation: Where does Ming toe the line between My Beloved Smother and Abusive Mom? Her anger management issues are a problem in that she doesn't know how to control her temper. She belittles Mei's interests, which are perfectly normal for a teenage girl in 2002, and justifies it later as the fact that she was the good daughter not allowed to have fun so Mei isn't allowed to have more privileges than Ming had at her age. Mei does appreciate the menstrual care package and drinks the herbal tea her mom packed, but definitely does not appreciate Ming spying on her at school and kicking the security guard in the leg for telling her it's against the rules. Not to mention her actions in the climax nearly killed Mei, even if it wasn't her intention, and could have badly traumatized her daughter after the dust settled.

Malady (X-Troper)
#19064: Mar 14th 2022 at 12:10:24 PM

[up] - "but she ticks off a lot of the boxes for emotional abuse" sounds like Weasel Words to me?

Disambig Needed: Help with those issues! tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13324299140A37493800&page=24#comment-576
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#19065: Mar 14th 2022 at 12:10:26 PM

Do these need to be this big?

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Jayalaw Since: Feb, 2014
#19066: Mar 14th 2022 at 12:11:51 PM

Happy to shorten the entries if they're approved.

Jayalaw Since: Feb, 2014
#19067: Mar 14th 2022 at 12:15:57 PM

Also per Safe Horizon, here are five signs of emotional abuse:

They are Hyper-Critical or Judgmental Towards You - Ming is hyper-critical of Mei, not even blinking when Mei brings home straight A's.
They Ignore Boundaries or Invade Your Privacy- The notebook scene.
They are Possessive and/or Controlling - Ming says that Mei is her daughter and has to be considerate of her feelings as a mother, while often not returning the favor.
They are Manipulative - This is the only box that Ming doesn't tick. She's not manipulative, and it's one of her virtues.
They Often Dismiss You and Your Feelings - The scene where Mei begs to go to the concert and promises to be careful, and Ming says it's not safe (legitimate) and that the music is trashy (not legitimate)

Edited by Jayalaw on Mar 14th 2022 at 12:16:20 PM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#19068: Mar 14th 2022 at 12:20:58 PM

Why are we referencing a random website ?

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Jayalaw Since: Feb, 2014
#19069: Mar 14th 2022 at 12:21:59 PM

I was accused of using Weasel Words in that entry when saying that Ming ticked off the boxes for emotional abuse. Citing a source from a website designed to help people with such issues to make my case.

Edited by Jayalaw on Mar 14th 2022 at 12:22:57 PM

laserviking42 from End-World Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
#19070: Mar 14th 2022 at 12:23:20 PM

We shouldn't be dabbling in trauma support by suggesting an actual diagnosis here.

I didn't choose the troping life, the troping life chose me
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#19071: Mar 14th 2022 at 12:24:09 PM

Yeah uh that seems way offtopic for the site.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
AegisP Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man
#19072: Mar 14th 2022 at 12:25:17 PM

Also the weasel works work in the sense of saying "We are not saying Ming's abusive... but she totally is."

As long as this flower is in my heart. My Strength will flow without end.
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#19073: Mar 14th 2022 at 12:27:06 PM

Yeah, Jayalaw, we need to focus on the facts of the work here.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Jayalaw Since: Feb, 2014
#19074: Mar 14th 2022 at 12:29:21 PM

I'm confused because I cited what happened in the movie and used sources to back up my argument that Ming is either abusive or can be interpreted as abusive. But it's fine; I made my case and if it's not approved, it's not approved. I can accept the final decision on that.

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#19075: Mar 14th 2022 at 12:31:32 PM

Well, the external source thing is sort of the issue; if the trope can't be measured in the work without pulling out outside sources as evidence, maybe it's not the trope at all. After all, what matters is what the narrative portrays.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall

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