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sgamer82 from Middleton, ID
Dec 4th 2019 at 11:34:15 AM

Edit war aside, my own bar for an in hindsight trope is a more direct connection than 'this thing happened, then this other thing happened'.

Plus, remember how in Eragon everyone cries "a single tear"? Yeah, just try that with One Piece and see if it works
Tomodachi I'm stronger than I think I am from Venezuela Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm stronger than I think I am
Dec 4th 2019 at 11:38:42 AM

I want to erase it again because it has nothing to do with MGS, but I need confirmation.

I will survive. I'm the writer of Insecto Nocturno. Check it out!
WarJay77 LT/P Herald~ from Upstate New York Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Tomodachi I'm stronger than I think I am from Venezuela Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm stronger than I think I am
Dec 4th 2019 at 11:43:35 AM

Oh, it was moved to Hilarious in Hindsight. My bad, I didn't see it very well. I still don't know if it should go there, but alright.

I will survive. I'm the writer of Insecto Nocturno. Check it out!
Dec 4th 2019 at 12:02:10 PM

It's not anything in hindsight. It's two things that happened in different roles in different franchises with no apparent connection between them. Cut it, burn it, load ashes into rocket, fire rocket into the sun.

Edited by HighCrate on Dec 4th 2019 at 12:07:09 PM

Dec 4th 2019 at 12:04:05 PM

SomeAnvilsNeedToBeDropped.My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic:

But from Said Episode:

  • An Aesop: All good deeds have a legacy. Even if bad things happen in the meantime, good things leave a lasting impact that isn't so easily erased.

Can it count as Some Anvils Need to Be Dropped if it's not the anvil the work is dropping? And if not, how is Some Anvils Need to Be Dropped supposed to be different from reiterating An Aesop with gushing?

I also asked Some Anvils Need To Be Dropped cleanup (which is inactive as of this post) and ATT (this seems like a common enough issue to warrant a larger consensus).

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Dec 4th 2019 at 12:10:58 PM

Dec 4th 2019 at 12:27:05 PM

And if not, how is Some Anvils Need to Be Dropped supposed to be different from reiterating An Aesop with gushing?

This TRS thread discussed the matter extensively and did not arrive at a meaningful distinction between Anvilicious and SANTBD other than "the latter has more gushing."

I'm of the opinion that SANTBD is Not a Trope and should be cut (or shunted off to Sugar Wiki if people really want the opportunity to gush about Aesops that they like).

Edited by HighCrate on Dec 4th 2019 at 12:28:28 PM

MathsAngelicVersion Aspiring Mathematician of Brilliant Laziness from Gensokyo Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Aspiring Mathematician of Brilliant Laziness
Dec 4th 2019 at 1:13:15 PM

From YMMV.Diary Of A Wimpy Kid:

  • Anvilicious:
    • Cabin Fever seems to really really be giving one the point that Jeff Kinney hates the American education system.
    • The Meltdown opens up with a huge Author Tract about anthropogenic climate change.
    • Due to Jeff Kinney's personal thoughts on the subject, every book between The Long Haul and The Meltdown (including Diary of an Awesome Friendly Kid and besides Double Down) has had an anti-cell phone scene.

The first example might be valid, but I find the second and third pretty questionable. The rant about climate change comes from Greg, who isn't particularly smart. (Also, it's been a while since I read the book, but I don't remember climate change being an important part of it.) As for the third example, I don't think having a few gags about Phoneaholic Teenagers is enough to make the message Anvilicious.

Dec 4th 2019 at 1:14:01 PM

I'm uncomfortable with this example from My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic S7 E14 "Fame and Misfortune":

  • Clueless Aesop: The Aesop hinges on the fans and critic being wrong for directing their fervor at "real ponies" over their real life happenings, unfairly infringing upon them. But it's meant as an allegory for such directed at the shows creators, who's job is to create satisfying fictional characters and stories, causing the applicability to not hold up.

Besides trying to sneak in some complaint, I'm not sure it fits with Clueless Aesop, which is for short "the show can't handle the message it tries to transmit". Maybe it could fit in a different trope...

WarJay77 LT/P Herald~ from Upstate New York Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
LT/P Herald~
Dec 4th 2019 at 1:16:17 PM

Y'all remember we have an Aesop Cleanup thread, right?

Edited by WarJay77 on Dec 4th 2019 at 4:19:07 AM

Trope Idea Salvage Yard - Sandbox.Zero Context Example Thread - Sandbox.Roleplay Cleanup Thread
Dec 4th 2019 at 1:20:34 PM

I did not, in fact, remember that. Thank you for the courtesy link!

Dec 4th 2019 at 10:34:12 PM

[up][up]I added that. It seemed the best trope to fit the issues fans took with it as it's not broken, but the real-life thing it's meant to represent lost the intended applicability when translated into the fictional scenario. My impression is that Clueless Aesop isn't just something the work inherently can't do, but failed to do so (works can surprise with how well they handle an Aesop). Is there a more fitting trope and/or less complainy way to put it?

isoycrazy Lord of the Blue Star Relationship Status: Abstaining
Lord of the Blue Star
Dec 5th 2019 at 4:35:51 AM

What takes precedence? If a Secret Secret-Keeper reveals his knowledge to the people he has the secrets on, should we change his tropes to Secret Keeper? Or does the fact he originally was a Secret Secret-Keeper mean we should leave it there unchanged?

TheNerfGuy Kadaj 5 the Nerf Guy from N/A
Kadaj 5 the Nerf Guy
Dec 5th 2019 at 6:23:27 AM

Would this example I'd like to add to Original Position Fallacy qualify as Real Life or something else altogether?

  • God Modders on Play-by-Post Games tend to make overpowered characters and dictate reality in spite of the Game Master's decisions, and this tends to ruin the experience for the other players. These same God Modders are just as quick to complain when, fed up with the powergaming, the other players, the Game Master, or both decide to God Mode against the offending God Modder and see how that person feels when they're on the receiving end and not the other way around.

I do have to ask first, though: Would this example be considered an example of Original Position Fallacy or The Golden Rule?

Is that so?
sgamer82 from Middleton, ID
Dec 5th 2019 at 6:53:04 AM

[up][up]I would say keep it there, since they were a Secret Secret-Keeper, but specify they did eventually come out with what they knew.

Plus, remember how in Eragon everyone cries "a single tear"? Yeah, just try that with One Piece and see if it works
nrjxll Relationship Status: Not war
Dec 5th 2019 at 7:43:09 AM

[up][up]That sounds like a violation of Examples Are Not General, TBH.

TheNerfGuy Kadaj 5 the Nerf Guy from N/A
Kadaj 5 the Nerf Guy
Dec 5th 2019 at 3:20:25 PM

[up]The problem is, I see a lot of similar examples on Original Position Fallacy. Should the general examples be removed from that?

Is that so?
wingedcatgirl cat_rotation.gif from Catgirl Heaven, presumably Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
cat_rotation.gif
Dec 5th 2019 at 3:47:20 PM

Yeah, probably. If they don't refer to a specific work (or event, for Real Life examples), they should go.

🐱 Name: Sylvi 🐱 I write things and like to talk about them. 🐱 Pronouns: it/they/she
Dec 5th 2019 at 5:30:15 PM

@isoycrazy: Have both the tropes listed, if both of them apply at different points in the story.

To use an example, if a character has Character Development, the tropes that applied to them prior to that would still be listed — they wouldn't be taken down just because they longer apply in the "present".

Dec 5th 2019 at 8:35:51 PM

BrokenAesop.Anime And Manga:

  • Mobile Suit Gundam: Iron-Blooded Orphans *tries* to say that the children being forced to take up arms not just to survive but to try and make a living is a terrible thing, but that message runs a bit flat when most of the adult characters are Card Carrying Villains and when Mikazuki practically boasts "These children are the ones that are going to kill you" to an enemy pilo, it's framed as a triumph as opposed to a necessary evil.

Besides Card Carrying Villains misuse (Asshole Victim fits better), this only applies to Season 1. Season 2 shows this, satisfying as it was, came at a price that hurt them in the long run. Is it a Broken Aesop if it was something planned all along?

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Dec 5th 2019 at 8:38:36 AM

rjd1922 The Radio Demon from Illinois Relationship Status: Love is for the living, Sal
The Radio Demon
Dec 5th 2019 at 8:44:35 PM

[up][up]That reminds me: back in April, ~DRCEQ removed the following from Ultimate Evil:

  • In Steven Universe, White Diamond, the head of the Great Diamond Authority that leads the oppressive Gem Homeworld (and who also has the most colonies of the four Diamonds) and the Greater-Scope Villain of the series, never appeared or was directly mentioned until late in the fifth season. Before then, she only appeared as a stylized mural with the other Diamonds and as a silhouette and a close-up of her hand in a flashback.

With the edit reason "Not an example, especially how White Diamond was given more and more focus and screentime in the season finale." There was some discussion on the IP thread, but I never got a satisfactory answer.

I haven't been that entertained since the stock market crash of 1929!
Dec 5th 2019 at 11:56:40 PM

Genji Tsuushin Agedama has weird examples on Values Dissonance that are hard to make sense of. I don't think they're examples but wanted to take them here to be safe.

"* Values Dissonance: Rei and her grandfather are a lot harder to forgive to an adult viewing this in 2019 than to a kid viewing it in the 90s. This is significant, since this story has a Karma Houdini ending and must toe the line between making them Effective Villains and not letting them cross the Moral Event Horizon to keep the ending widely acceptable.

  • Many of the monsters have some kind of mind-altering effect, and while Doraemon has "taught" kids that mind altering tools are legit, proportionate responses to schoolyard scuffles, an adult is more aware of the importance of the mind and buys less willingly into the narrative.
  • Every threat to "fire" and "expel" also sound much more onerous to the adult aware of their long-term consequences and true gravity.
  • Morals have shifted in a way unfavorable to Rei and her grandfather. In Episode 33, grandfather reacts to a rowdy classroom by making them carry firewood. Grandfather wasn't in the right even when it aired, and the show ensures even the most conservative cannot side with him by making the firewood go into his bath, the rowdiness was a mitigation in his favor, and since no beating was involved at least it wasn't corporal punishment. The common understanding of corporal punishment has expanded since then, and we will also recognize what happened in the classroom as an attempt at progressive education.
    • Adults might also realize the above scene was even only possible because of the positive changes in the classroom and school since Episode 1, and grandfather's intervention reversed about thirty episodes worth of progress."

The Protomen enhanced my life.
Albert3105 Magikarp deterrence
Magikarp deterrence
Dec 6th 2019 at 3:12:35 PM

From Lying Creator:

Is it really an example at all if Del Toro didn't actually work on the game, only giving a legal waiver for a character to be designed like him?


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