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Apr 17th 2019 at 6:48:10 PM

[up]I guess Gio technically would be one.

Gacha Is A Lie.
Brainulator9 Regular garden-variety troper. from US Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
Regular garden-variety troper.
Apr 17th 2019 at 8:10:16 PM

I would say it's a zig-zagged case. While they are the children of a vampire father (or head attached to a partially incompatible body) and human women, they display no vampiric qualities as seen earlier in the franchise.

That said, Giorno has said WRRRYYYYY a couple of times (against Ghiaccio in the anime and Cioccolata in the manga), though it could be just a parental thing, as with "muda" as Kiai. The part 7/8 timeline has no vampires, but the WRRRYYYYY comes up at least twice, one character being an alternate Dio and the other not so much.

Important Trope Repair Shop thread under construction for four closely-related items.
gjjones Musician/Composer from South Wales, New York
Musician/Composer
Apr 17th 2019 at 11:33:12 PM

In Sakura Wars 3: Is Paris Burning?, Lobelia Carlini is an Italian-Romanian criminal. Because of her Romani ancestry and her nomadic lifestyle since she lost her parents, she is referred to as a gypsy, which is how the Romani were called back in the 1920s.

Does that count as Deliberate Values Dissonance?

No matter who you are, always be yourself.
Yinyang107 from the True North Relationship Status: Tongue-tied
Apr 18th 2019 at 4:53:39 AM

[up]Sort of, in that "gypsy" is considered a slur in modern times. However, a lot of people don't realize how offensive the term can be.

Maybe someday, they'll see a hero is just a man who knows he is free. R.I.P. "Grammie" Ruth Watson, 1927-2014
Merseyuser1 from Greater Manchester, United Kingdom
Apr 18th 2019 at 9:16:25 AM

I added this to AudioPlay.Big Finish Doctor Who, but have I used the trope correctly:

I also added this to Non-Serial Movie under Live Action TV:

  • Top Gear had several episodes that are all considered as being outside the regular series' canon:
    • The East Coast Road Trip in 2010, which toured California and had Special Guest Danny Boyle. Officially has no episode number, but is 125th episode produced.
    • Then there was the Middle East Special which aired on 26 December 2010, an episode that was largely seen as its own standalone thing.
    • The Patagonia Specials, which was a two-part episode, which aired December 2014, and although they fit the show's timeline, they aren't given Continuity Nods or given an episode number, although technically they're the 167th and 168th episodes of the revived series.
    • None of these episodes fit into the show's core timeline, so as such are considered as stand-alone self-contained specials, even though the regular show has a continuity.

Edited by Merseyuser1 on Apr 18th 2019 at 5:27:31 PM

Apr 18th 2019 at 11:43:27 AM

I added a Fair for Its Day example on YMMV.The Hunch Back Of Notre Dame, but Hopeshalllive deleted it without giving a reason why. I asked them via notes, and they said it was because the story is set in Medieval times, and thus the example doesn't qualify.

I'm just wondering, is there a rule for Fair for Its Day that it doesn't qualify for works set years before they were made? Because I didn't see that anywhere on the trope page.

Edited by MrMediaGuy2 on Apr 18th 2019 at 12:13:10 PM

AnoBakaDesu Relationship Status: What is this thing you call love?
Apr 18th 2019 at 12:06:04 PM

[up] Deleting the entry with a disregard for when the work itself was made is erroneous. That it is set in Medieval times has no bearing on the work's own production date. Fair for Its Day talks about the applicability of the work based on its release era compared to now, not the setting it is based on. Hopeshalllive is in the wrong here.

"They played us like a DAMN FIDDLE!" — Kazuhira Miller, Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain
AnoBakaDesu Relationship Status: What is this thing you call love?
Apr 18th 2019 at 12:53:26 PM

Should I make a cleanup thread for Author's Saving Throw? As it stands, a lot of video game YMMV pages have tropers add entries under AST that have nothing to do with the game's narrative, but rather gameplay changes and QoL tweaks. And that's not getting started with unreleased works that have AST as predictions for a previous game's failures.

"They played us like a DAMN FIDDLE!" — Kazuhira Miller, Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain
gjjones Musician/Composer from South Wales, New York
Musician/Composer
Apr 18th 2019 at 1:38:33 PM

This was re-added to Characters.Black Clover Main Characters a few days ago:

  • Berserk Button:
    • If you ever harm anyone that he calls friend you had better be ready to get the beating of a lifetime, also insulting them is a major one as well.
    • People who abuse their magic to prey on the innocent will send him into a rage.

Since those examples count as mis-use, I had to remove it. The troper in question who added it in, Beerusuo Hakaioshin, said that the trope is about anger and to what provokes the character. Thoughts?

Edited by gjjones on Apr 18th 2019 at 5:25:41 AM

No matter who you are, always be yourself.
Apr 18th 2019 at 2:21:28 PM

This example has been added to Insane Troll Logic:

In L.A. Noire, Cole accuses someone of hiding the fact that their friend was raped because when Cole asked her to describe her friend she didn't mention the fact that they were raped. This is made worse by the fact that the player needs to think to do this themselves during this character's interview, something which is highly non-intuitive for more reasons then just the insane nature of the accusation.note 

The example also got added to Conviction by Contradiction where I believe it definitely would qualify as an example. But I'm not so sure about Insane Troll Logic. Would this qualify or no? Just to add some context to the situation within the game where this happens, Cole is specifically investigating a car crash, and both the person he's talking to and their friend were car crash victims. Cole specifically asks her to describe the passenger who was in the car with her, and she responds by giving the normal general description you would give to a question like that (the passenger's name, what kind of person the passenger is, and how bad the crash has been on her). This is when the player is expected to make Cole accuse her of hiding the fact that the passenger was raped because she didn't mention it. IMO I think it's safe to say that it's a pretty ludicrous leap of logic, but what would it be Insane Troll Logic, specifically?

Edited by BakerGoods on Apr 18th 2019 at 2:41:09 AM

AnoBakaDesu Relationship Status: What is this thing you call love?
Apr 18th 2019 at 2:26:34 PM

[up][up] See the disclaimer: This is not about anger in response to something that would reasonably enrage someone. Key word being "reasonably".

"They played us like a DAMN FIDDLE!" — Kazuhira Miller, Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain
Apr 18th 2019 at 2:53:12 PM

Gj@Those aren't example. I honestly think the trope need a name change to be more clear.

Gacha Is A Lie.
Apr 18th 2019 at 3:25:28 PM

[up][up] I'm under the impression that Insane Troll Logic requires that the logic be acknowledged as insane and nonsensical In-Universe. If the example is accusing the writers of invoking Insane Troll Logic in the solution of one of the game's puzzles, that comes mighty close to being a real-life example, and ITL asks for No Real Life Examples, Please!.

Perhaps Violation of Common Sense or That One Puzzle would be a better spot for that example.

Apr 18th 2019 at 4:05:46 PM

[up]x6 — I'm not sure if a cleanup thread is in order, or if we should just expand the definition of Author's Saving Throw to include technical details like this. Maybe a subtrope?

Night Vision Image Quality Cleanup Thread
Crossover-Enthusiast That's all, folks! from somewhere doing something Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Apr 18th 2019 at 4:18:59 PM

I... Don't have any words for this. Do Moon Logic Puzzle examples really need that much detail?

VideoGame.LA Noire

  • Moon Logic Puzzle: The game is full to the brim with this during it's interrogations. Typically it's an issue with the game expecting players to understand that they need to purposefully ignore logical fallacies, side-step away incomplete deductive process, and purposefully aim for tropes such as Conviction by Contradiction. All of which can be incredibly non-intuitive, particularly during the early cases. There is also an issue with the game often expecting players to treat circumstantial conjecture as evidence, and even a couple of moments where Cole will use Insane Troll Logic to make a correct answer work within the context of the questioning.
    • One of the most striking example occurs during the case The Fallen Idol. You're investigate a car crash to see if it was an attempted murder of the driver and her passenger. At the crime scene, you find underwear that were inside the handbag of to the female passenger, Jessica Hamilton (who is a minor) and are ripped. When you interview the driver, you ask her about Jessica, and she says that Jessica has had a rough day, and is something with stars in their eyes who dreams of entering into the world of film, before ending it with "what more can I say?". By this time the player expected to have already pieced together from the highly ambiguous circumstantial evidence (the ripped panties only) that Jessica was raped the prior day, despite there being nothing to even remotely imply this other then the fact that some ripped panties were in Jessica's handbag. The player is then expected to understand that they need to pull this theory out as evidence at this point against the driver and present the underwear. This prompts Cole to accuse the driver of hiding the fact that Jessica was raped because they didn't mention the fact that Jessica raped during their description of Jessica. The only cue to this is the highly ambiguous and vague "what more can I say?" which is supposed to be indicating that they're hiding something but it's incredibly non-intuitive and telegraphed to the player horribly (there is als the usual "I'm lying" expressions of guilty suspects, which typically (but not always) indicate the correct option as "doubt" or "lie" ("bad cop" or "accuse" in the Remastered Edition), but this hardly helps in a scenario like this. As if this wasn't bad enough there's also a giant, and frankly, ridiculously mis-leading red-herring that the game throws at the player in the form of a letter from Jessica's mother that proves Jessica is a runaway. Trying to present this evidence nets the player a failure, even though it should, by all accounts, show that June is avoiding mentioning that Jessica is a runaway, because she is, and as is revealed for a fact later on June knows this, she has been hiding it, and she didn't mention it when describing Jessica. Despite this being the exact same logic behind the rape answer, the runaway answer is not accepted and therape answer is the only correct one. This is despite the player knowing for a fact that Jessicia is a runaway, whereas the entire rape thing is pure speculation the player has pulled out of a wormwhole with zero in-game indication that they were even meant to be doing such a thing. L.A. Noir actually keeps player statistics through the in-game social club, meaning that you can see the player average with who picked "truth", "doubt" and "lie" during interrogations, and thus how many people got the right answer. Under 10% of players correctly made the accusation—the kick in the teeth is that isn't the statistic for players who just got the answer wrong. It's the player statistic for players who had already used an in-game hint option to aid them on getting the right answer and then STILL got it wrong. It is one of the lowest statistic in the game, and for rather good reason, as what the game is expecting players to do; already have a theory of rape on hand then whip it out at that exact moment against the driver, violates intuition, goes against other more plausible theories, and is not at all well telegraphed.
    • Another more subdued example (but that still underlies the main issue with the game's interrogation system) comes when Cole asks the husband of a murder victim what size shoes he wears. The husband responds by saying, "size nines, I think". The player needs to press "lie", to prompt Cole to accuse the husband of purposefully lying to him, then present the work shoes Cole found in his bedroom, which are size eights. While not on the level of Insane Troll Logic it's still a ridiculous assumption to make for a while multitude of reasons, particularly since it's only a single shoe size in difference. Not remembering properly; this isn't exactly uncommon, the shoes being old ones, him having shoes that don't match his exact shoe size but still fine to wear; again this is far from uncommon, ect. This wouldn't be so much of a problem if it was simply the fact that the player needs to know to play the hard cop and push at the notion of Conviction by Contradiction all the time; in this instance this is not a difficult contradiction to spot. The actual issue comes from the fact that the gameplay system is purposefully set up in a way that makes instances like this misleading for first time players who have not adjusted to this yet, since the player has three options on how to respond to suspect statements: "Truth"/"Good Cop" if you think it's the truth, "Doubt"/"Bad Cop" if it seems shaky but not directly contradictory, and "Lie"/"Accuse" if you can prove with evidence that they're not being truthful. Instances like this are trailer-made for suckering first-timers into thinking too "realistically" and picking "doubt"/"bad cop" instead of "lie"/"accuse".note 

Unreleased Works Cleanup | Unreleased Work Policy | Pls we need more input
Apr 18th 2019 at 4:22:55 PM

[up]Thats too much detail to the point it he TLDR. Also,i think its wrong.

Gacha Is A Lie.
sgamer82 from Meridian, ID
Apr 18th 2019 at 4:36:40 PM

I usually reserve this statement for YMMV entries, but be wary of entries you have to scroll through.

Edited by sgamer82 on Apr 18th 2019 at 5:36:49 AM

Plus, remember how in Eragon everyone cries "a single tear"? Yeah, just try that with One Piece and see if it works
Apr 18th 2019 at 4:56:27 PM

For what it's worth, the user who added these LA Noire examples also made an incredibly blatant troll post in ATT, so I have serious doubts about whether their edits were meant to be for the good of the wiki.

AnoBakaDesu Relationship Status: What is this thing you call love?
Apr 18th 2019 at 5:00:13 PM

[up] x5 That's the issue I'm willing to bring up. Either Author's Saving Throw gets its definition broadened to beyond narrative changes, or it stays like that and we zap anything that strays from the definition with extreme prejudice.

I'm not in favor of broadening the definition, since many of those "gameplay changes" entries that I deleted were complainy and sometimes bash on the creator.

Edited by AnoBakaDesu on Apr 18th 2019 at 8:00:30 AM

"They played us like a DAMN FIDDLE!" — Kazuhira Miller, Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain
Apr 18th 2019 at 7:45:21 PM

Is Spy's Suspicious Spouse, a subtrope of Mistaken for Cheating like the description says, or is it just a spy's spouse finding their behavior suspicious in general, and leading them in directions to find out that they're a spy?

'Cause I just made this in Fanfic.Oversaturated World, but not sure whether to crosswick or not...

  • Spy's Suspicious Spouse: From Scratching at the Wrapper, by FoME: Lyra being suspicious of Bonbon's out-of-place martial arts skills. They're not married, but they're close. And then there's Bonbon's discussion with her parents, where her dad is basically confirmed as having previously worked as a spy:
    At dinner that night, Bonbon bit her lip and said, "Dad?"
    Bon Mot looked up from his spaghetti. "Yes, Sweetie?"
    "Did... did Mom ever, you know... suspect?"
    Her mother, Aspartame, snorted. "Believe me, Sweetie, if I had ever suspected what he was up to before it was too late, I would... Well, things would've gone differently."


Then there's the trope page having this:

  • Series.The Americans: Spy's Suspicious Daughter. Paige, the teenage daughter of two Soviet deep cover agents masquerading as Americans, grows suspicious of her parents in Season 2 and starts snooping.

Edited by Malady on Apr 18th 2019 at 7:47:15 AM

Help with possible disambig and redirect issues!
Apr 18th 2019 at 8:17:41 PM

Is this an example of a Medium-Shift Gag? The comic is normally drawn.

Apr 18th 2019 at 8:27:26 PM

[up]I don't think so since the live action ant is taken from an actual movie.

Gacha Is A Lie.
nrjxll Relationship Status: Not war
Apr 18th 2019 at 8:27:44 PM

I kinda want to salvage some of those LA Noire writeups, because if nothing else they do a good job of conveying how counterintuitive the solutions are to someone (like me) who knows nothing about the game. That said, in their current they're borderline-unreadable pure angry ranting.

Apr 18th 2019 at 8:35:20 PM

[up] - Burn all adjectives. Then you should be left with nearly pure facts?

Help with possible disambig and redirect issues!
Apr 18th 2019 at 11:37:59 PM

What about this? Is that a Medium-Shift Gag?


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