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Guest1001 Since: Oct, 2010
#51: Nov 30th 2012 at 3:22:27 AM

I think there may be an odd compliment hidden in there somewhere. :)

Nicknacks Ding-ding! Going down... from Land Down Under Since: Oct, 2010
Ding-ding! Going down...
#52: Nov 30th 2012 at 4:12:03 AM

You might very well think that, I couldn't possibly comment. cool

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Besserwisser from Planet of Hats Since: Dec, 2009
#53: Nov 30th 2012 at 4:34:49 AM

Surely there are better ways to approach people than naming them members of "Hate Dumbs", no? If you want to encourage fruitful discussion I implore you (and everyone else) to consider tone when posting.
Fun thing: because I read Guest's post only after he edited it, I was initially under the assumption that you talked about the comic here. What the short comic basically implied was that by talking about men in a thread about men's issues we've drawn attention away from women. Surely, a crime worthy of severe punishment.

Nicknacks Ding-ding! Going down... from Land Down Under Since: Oct, 2010
Ding-ding! Going down...
#54: Nov 30th 2012 at 5:53:07 AM

Let it go, man.

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Scardoll Burn Since: Nov, 2010
Burn
#55: Nov 30th 2012 at 6:40:07 AM

It seems people don't even realize what that comic was criticizing; it's not men having their own problems and taking attention away. It's about straight white men using problems that they never cared about in the first place as a smokescreen to avoid conversation about issues that make them uncomfortable.

edited 30th Nov '12 6:41:14 AM by Scardoll

Fight. Struggle. Endure. Suffer. LIVE.
Cider The Final ECW Champion from Not New York Since: May, 2009 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
The Final ECW Champion
#56: Nov 30th 2012 at 6:54:36 AM

"Dominated by feminism" is the error in your thinking talby. Feminism is about equality two ways after all. Could the problem in the other thread have been about male issues being considered too far off the rails in a topic called "tropes vs women" centered mainly around a kickstarter youtuber talking about women?

If you allowed yourselves to be kicked out of the discussion but felt you were on topic then by all means, let the moderation know they were wrong but is it possible your gripes were a little too far form the focus of the other topic? To that end, I really do not see this thread lasting. It has no central figure we can praise, criticize or contrast with where the other one started with such a character.

But still, though it may simply be a side affect of their greater numbers, I feel as if male player characters have a greater tendency to be needlessly annoying, stupid or generally unlikeable and have a greater tendency to be distorted to those ends if they are not already. Metal Gear is only the most obvious example that comes to my mind as we are told Snake has an IQ of 180 but are shown nothing to reinforce it. He's an unwitting in his advancement of other people's plots to a ludicrous degree, has little sense of his own era's culture and tends to forget most of what he learned from previous game plots.

Snake is far from the worst, but I have to wonder if the majority of his charm isn't just leftover from Snake Plissken, a movie character who was much more aware by comparison. Yeah, people are on Samus now and Laura to a lesser extent but I feel the only reason we did not eat up Snake is that we were used to stupification happening to the guys we control by now.

Another is the game for Marvel's first Ghost Rider movie. In the comic, Blaze/Zarathos typically match wits against oil tycoons, slavers, evil sorcerers, demon lords and the like. In the game, he draws a summoning circle to Earth with his motor cycle tracks, therefore allowing Mephisto to take over. Even movie Blaze had the sense to research that kind of thing after he found himself on the wrong end of a deal with a used car salesmen from hell.

Now, if they outright tell us the character is not supposed to be extraordinarily intelligent or do not use characters who should already know better it would not be so jarring. Maybe if Metal Gear's narrative treated Snake and especially Raiden the way we the player see them but as is it comes off as you are(probably) male and this guy is too so you should perfectly relate to and like him once you have controlled him for ten minutes.

But it is not just incompetence. People often complain about how God of War tries to tell you things to make Kratos seem sympathetic but let his actions tell an entirely different story but I think has a successor in Blaz Blue's, Ragna who also seem to get an unnecessary amount of narrative favoritism relative to his actions. He's a guy, all the guys will like it! I won't comment on Legacy of Kain because I did not play it.

Modified Ura-nage, Torture Rack
Besserwisser from Planet of Hats Since: Dec, 2009
#57: Nov 30th 2012 at 6:58:47 AM

[up][up] I don't think the comic in itself was that bad. There might be people like that and they should be criticized for that. But to post it in a thread that was created to talk about men in the first place was uncalled for. It reeks of hypocrisy to complain about attention being taken away from women by effectively criticizing men when talking about their own issues in an area where the discussion was intentionally about them in the first place.

edited 30th Nov '12 6:59:23 AM by Besserwisser

CorrTerek The Permanently Confused from The Bland Line Since: Jul, 2009
The Permanently Confused
#58: Nov 30th 2012 at 7:21:10 AM

Misandry discussions were labeled trolling in the other topic because everytime it was brought up the thread veered dangerously close to flame wars. It's not considered trolling because of the topic, it's considered trolling because you can't talk about it in a peaceful manner.

To pretend otherwise is dishonest.

Guest1001 Since: Oct, 2010
#59: Nov 30th 2012 at 7:21:43 AM

It seems people don't even realize what that comic was criticizing; it's not men having their own problems and taking attention away. It's about straight white men using problems that they never cared about in the first place as a smokescreen to avoid conversation about issues that make them uncomfortable.

How do you figure that the men never cared about these problems in the first place?

Could the problem in the other thread have been about male issues being considered too far off the rails in a topic called "tropes vs women" centered mainly around a kickstarter youtuber talking about women?

There's a difference between a topic being considered "too far off the rails" — I could describe many discussions that way in that thread — and being singled out as "uncivil" and "trolling". Frankly, in a discussion about sexism, mentioning the negative male portrayals gave a better overview of gaming on the whole than simply focusing on one sex could.

Scardoll Burn Since: Nov, 2010
Burn
#60: Nov 30th 2012 at 7:24:54 AM

Meh, I was talking about the comic, not about the thread.

As for problems with males in gaming, the only one I commonly see is Men Are the Expendable Gender. It seems that when you're trying to be dramatic, you kill an innocent female in a horribly gruesome way; when you just need someone dead, you kill one of the dudes. One of the worst examples I've seen is Blacksite: Area 51. One of the squadmates is revealed to have lied to you and been complicit in the development of the horrible military experiments that led to the entire plot of the game. Okay, this obviously means she's going to get some sort of karmic death at the hands of the main villain, right? Right?

Nope. Every single other squadmate dies. Not her. We don't even see her tossed in jail or anything. And I'd be fine with that if she had some story of redemption or something, but she doesn't. She just lived because she was a woman.

Of course, that game was so shitty, every squadmate was unlikeable, so having any of them live was too kind.

How do you figure that the men never cared about these problems in the first place?
Generally because they never start talking about them until the activist walks in.

Of course, it's not exclusively men. It's people in general who don't face significant problems and don't want to face them.

edited 30th Nov '12 7:47:41 AM by Scardoll

Fight. Struggle. Endure. Suffer. LIVE.
KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#61: Nov 30th 2012 at 7:34:34 AM

I certainly don't like Raiden, regardless of the MGS game he's in, but having to suffer his existence isn't an issue that only affects men. And there are annoying female characters too.

I think Raiden is more of a problem because he was made with a Japanese audience in mind—particularly Japanese women. (The legend goes a female fan wrote to Kojima and bitched about not wanting to play as "an old guy"; don't know how true it is.) But I personally think characters like Raiden, for better or worse, reveal something about masculinity.

One of the common complaints about Raiden is that he's too feminine too take seriously as a child soldier/special operative. That seems rather misogynistic, but whatever. The problem I have with Raiden is how the narrative tries to deconstruct the concept the stereotypical Action Hero in the most asanine way possible. The crux of Raiden's character is summed up in his interactions with Rose; Rose is a bitchy, needy, completely unrealistic and out of place character. (And for this series, that's saying something.) While Snake at least seemed like a Shell-Shocked Veteran in the first game, Raiden doesn't act like he has a professional or disciplined bone in his body. In addition to being more feminine than his predecessor, Raiden is also much less effective at soldiering.

I consider this an issue with the portrayal of men in games because it reinforces that Manly Men like Snake are, overall, better soldiers (unless you become a robot ninja or something) and much more expendable. (Note the Downer Ending Snake gets in the fourth game versus the Earn Your Happy Ending Raiden does.) It could have easily been established that Raiden is a more feminine character than Snake but without losing any of his professionalism. Since women often use more non-verbal communication and are stereotyped as being more observant than men, why not have Raiden have a much greater insight than Snake did? Instead of having Raiden sit back and get lectured by pretty much every villain, have Raiden deliver a Shut Up, Hannibal! retort that demonstrates that the villains' own actions or unconcious behavior undermine their very principles? Or why not have Raiden come up with non-violent (and I don't mean that "tranq-killing" bullshit) method of resolving the conflict? The Real Life military usually loves that kind of shit (granted, that wouldn't have worked very well for an action game, but that just goes to show that WHY this was the wrong platform to try this sort of Aesop).

Why have Raiden become a complete jibbering wreck at the end of the game?


On the issue of Johnny and Meryl, I'm once again taking the "neither one was innocent" stance. I don't see their portrayal as any more misogynist or misandrist, but totally messed up from the word go.

In fact, after Besser suggested this topic, the idea was supported by one of the feminist posters over there (King Zeal, I believe).

I don't consider myself a feminist. I just advocate progessive change regardless of gender, race or ethnicity.

edited 30th Nov '12 7:42:49 AM by KingZeal

Cider The Final ECW Champion from Not New York Since: May, 2009 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
The Final ECW Champion
#62: Nov 30th 2012 at 8:15:14 AM

There's a difference between a topic being considered "too far off the rails" — I could describe many discussions that way in that thread — and being singled out as "uncivil" and "trolling". Frankly, in a discussion about sexism, mentioning the negative male portrayals gave a better overview of gaming on the whole than simply focusing on one sex could.
So you then felt you had a legit gripe and let yourself get kicked out? Accepted a potentially redundant thread with nothing to go on but, "um, like, there's this other thread where I wanted to say something but I came here, anyone else feel the same way?"
Oh and King Zeal is not a feminist? The questions I could but currently do not care to raise.

Modified Ura-nage, Torture Rack
KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#63: Nov 30th 2012 at 8:20:29 AM

I said I don't consider myself one. I've had so many debates over what a "feminist" is and isn't that I don't care anymore.

Some may call me a feminist. I consider myself a teacher.

Guest1001 Since: Oct, 2010
#64: Nov 30th 2012 at 8:22:55 AM

[up][up] Are you basically asking me why I didn't continue posting my opinions in a thread where moderators had already warned me that those opinions would be unwelcome? Yes, I chose to stop posting there because getting into an argument with the moderators would've been a Too Dumb to Live move.

And just because you see this thread as "potentially redundant" — which makes me wonder why you bother posting here — doesn't mean others do.

Wildcard Since: Jun, 2012
#65: Nov 30th 2012 at 8:40:07 AM

Your two's discussions might get more respect if you didn't say something as stupid as "The patriarchy never existed". or "Feminism was never about equality" Can you at least try to use something other than things like that if you feel this strongly about a topic? Your not exactly making your cause look good.

Guest1001 Since: Oct, 2010
#66: Nov 30th 2012 at 9:07:39 AM

I'm receiving a strange vibe that nothing the men's rights supporters do on TV Tropes is good enough for the critics. Posting in the Tropes Vs Women In Video Games thread is disallowed? We make our own thread and we're criticised for doing so. Raising men's issues in the thread specifically for men's issues in games? They're dismissed and the two statements we made that affect women are brought up instead.

Wildcard, please read the posts in the topic before you post.

Wildcard Since: Jun, 2012
#67: Nov 30th 2012 at 9:16:49 AM

Why? I'm just bringing up two stupid arguments you and Besser used and saying people might show your topics more respect if you had behaved in kind before. You make arguments like that and nobody takes you seriously. Deservedly so.

KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#68: Nov 30th 2012 at 9:43:00 AM

Wildcard, you're calling the kettle black right now.

But let me ask Guest (and Besser, if he's still around a question): what male issues would you specifically like address that are distinctly separate from the marginalization of women?

Karalora Since: Jan, 2001
#69: Nov 30th 2012 at 9:47:36 AM

Hey, guys, can anyone join this thread or is there a test first?

For the record, creating this thread was exactly the right thing to do. Seriously. That's what you should do when a discussion of women's issues prompts you to discuss men's issues, rather than spamming the existing discussion.

Also for the record, there are very good questions to be asked about why men are portrayed in various unflattering ways in video games when the vast majority of the writers and programmers are themselves men. We can have a good discussion here (or y'all can, if I don't pass the entrance exam tongue).

KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#70: Nov 30th 2012 at 9:51:49 AM

I don't think the thread would have all the viewpoints covered if you didn't, Kara.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#71: Nov 30th 2012 at 10:01:32 AM

You might very well think that, I couldn't possibly comment.

...I see What you did there. cool

...Why would people hate Raiden because he's too girly? Seems kinda weird to me. And the thing is, the only girly thing about him is his appearance. He never engages in stereotypically feminine behavior or mannerisms.

edited 30th Nov '12 10:01:50 AM by unnoun

Guest1001 Since: Oct, 2010
#72: Nov 30th 2012 at 10:05:31 AM

But let me ask Guest (and Besser, if he's still around a question): what male issues would you specifically like address that are distinctly separate from the marginalization of women?

Well I can't say they're distinctly separate because, much like we did in the other thread, I'm sure people can think of examples where these issues affect women too. However, some of the issues that affect men that I'd like to see addressed are Men Are the Expendable Gender, Double Standard: Abuse, Female on Male and various personality traits that are usually given to men (All Men Are Perverts, for example).

None of these tropes are specific to video games but it could certainly be argued that video games are where men are at their most expendable; video games need mooks to kill and, unless your game's enemies are mostly monsters, they're going to be mostly male. Double standard abuse isn't as common but female-on-male violence being portrayed as funny or a non-issue is a sore point of mine. As for personality traits, that one occurred to me when I played Heavy Rain and could count the number of nice adult male characters on one hand.

KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#73: Nov 30th 2012 at 10:07:11 AM

Alright, next question.

How would you solve that problem, ideally?

Karalora Since: Jan, 2001
#74: Nov 30th 2012 at 10:07:56 AM

Thanks, Zeal. I would have loved to get involved in the other thread, but I'm suffering from severe Continuity Lock-Out. That thing is a monster!

I think the best way to solve Men Are the Expendable Gender is to give female characters sufficient representation in games that they are no longer seen as unique and fragile creatures that must be preserved. This is one of those areas where you can't address men's issues and women's issues separately.

edited 30th Nov '12 10:15:01 AM by Karalora

KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#75: Nov 30th 2012 at 10:10:09 AM

You can always raise your own subtopic within the topic. That's what most of us do, anyway.


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