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Guest1001 Since: Oct, 2010
#26: Nov 29th 2012 at 1:12:42 PM

[up][up] You're coming at this from a Watsonian (in-universe) standpoint. We're coming at it from a Doylist (out-of-universe) one. You're looking for justifications for why Meryl abusing Johnny is okay just because it's considered okay in-universe. Meanwhile, we're saying it's a horrible, abusive relationship that's made all the worse by the fact that nobody in-universe sees anything wrong with it.

In fact, I'm willing to bet that plenty of people out-of-universe didn't have a problem with it either, seeing it as just good old comic relief.

[up] Haven't played Other M, although I've heard lots about it. Did Adam have a good reason for shooting Samus in the back?

edited 29th Nov '12 1:23:05 PM by Guest1001

Thorn14 Gunpla is amazing! Since: Aug, 2010
Gunpla is amazing!
#27: Nov 29th 2012 at 1:26:46 PM

Wasn't it to "Protect Her"?

Other M is a plain bad game and should not be used in discusions ever.

It needs to be Discontinuity for everyone.

ShirowShirow Dinosaur Hunter from Land of Maple Syrup (Old as dirt)
Dinosaur Hunter
#28: Nov 29th 2012 at 1:28:33 PM

You want to pull an Orwellian Retcon on reality, Soviet style?

... Actually I'm on board this time.

You are not alone.
Thorn14 Gunpla is amazing! Since: Aug, 2010
Gunpla is amazing!
#29: Nov 29th 2012 at 1:30:55 PM

When its Other M I think no measure is too far.

VutherA Since: Jul, 2009
Nicknacks Ding-ding! Going down... from Land Down Under Since: Oct, 2010
Ding-ding! Going down...
#31: Nov 29th 2012 at 1:33:13 PM

Did Adam have a good reason for shooting Samus in the back?

Didn't Elena for Drake?

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Guest1001 Since: Oct, 2010
#32: Nov 29th 2012 at 1:35:32 PM

[up] She punched him for ditching her. I included it because I can't imagine a non-action guy doing the same thing to an Action Girl without him being a villain. That's the way these things tend to work in fiction.

Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#33: Nov 29th 2012 at 1:43:09 PM

From what I know of Other M, there was this wing of the ship filled with cold-proof Metroids, and he knocked Samus out and went into that part of the ship to pull some failsafe to space and self-destruct that part of the ship, to get rid of the Metroids. It's played up as him stealing the suicide mission, because Samus is more important, basically.

There was some number of reasons why it wasn't a good scene, but I can't remember it off-hand.

edited 29th Nov '12 1:43:38 PM by Enlong

I have a message from another time...
JotunofBoredom Left Eye from Noatun Since: Dec, 2009
Left Eye
#34: Nov 29th 2012 at 1:43:15 PM

We don't get a "screw you, Meryl. If it wasn't for men, you'd be dead by now, " from Snake.
So if men hadn't rescued her she'd be justified then? wink

Yes, the abusive woman and her pervy stalker of a victim get married in the ending sequence.

Fixed.

Which isn't to say Johnny deserved all that abuse, but he has been following her around like a creep since Shadow Moses.

Nine years of following this one female prisoner he thought was kinda hot and had no emotional connection to. Neither of them deserve a happy ending(especially not MGS 4 Meryl, ugh), but he's a total Bishie and she's a main character so it's okay in the end for some reason.

I realized its usually alright to have a woman who hates men im a game but you can never have the inverse.

TBF, Meryl's misandry is treated as mostly unwarranted from the start(Snake gives the Colonel some backtalk about getting her angry at one point, but then the Colonel is shown to be totally right later on and the whole "knocked up my brother's wife" thing is just kinda shoved under the rug). The game pretty much goes out of its way to portray her as overly emotional and, frankly, kind of a bitch. Too bad nobody ever calls her out on it directly and she pretty much gets away with everything scott-free.

Combine that with Johnny's status as a running gag slapstick character throughout the entire series and...

I can't think of any inverse examples in games and I doubt many would go through with them without having an entire subplot where the dude learns the errors of his wimmen hatin' ways after literally everyone comments on how uncool it is.

So yeah, that's a problem.

Metroid: Other M.

Oh man.

Why would you remind me of this?

Haven't played Other M, although I've heard lots about it. Did Adam have a good reason for shooting Samus in the back?

They give a reason, but that reason makes it more offensive when considering the context of the entire rest of the game. It's also dumb because he could have gotten her killed(there was a metroid in the area and Adam wasn't even sure his weaponry would be able to take it out, yet he decided to shoot Samus first anyway).

[up][up]Occasionally a guy can get away with a slap, but that's the most you'll get outside of that one anime in the Tropes vs Women thread.

edited 29th Nov '12 1:43:48 PM by JotunofBoredom

Umbran Climax
Scardoll Burn Since: Nov, 2010
Burn
#35: Nov 29th 2012 at 1:57:30 PM

Oh man.

Why would you remind me of this?

Because I'm a horrible person who can't let things go.:(

Other M... should not be used in discusions ever.
I'll start using Too Human as my new whipping boy.

edited 29th Nov '12 2:00:19 PM by Scardoll

Fight. Struggle. Endure. Suffer. LIVE.
Nicknacks Ding-ding! Going down... from Land Down Under Since: Oct, 2010
Ding-ding! Going down...
#36: Nov 29th 2012 at 2:00:12 PM

WILL NOT SNARK


Men suffering abuse in video-games is nothing new. But it's not a problem exclusively limited to videogames, and is prevalent in comedy, genre work, ect. ect. What is it about video games that makes this issue particularly pressing?

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StrawberrytheSecond Just a Bug from the Ark Since: May, 2012
Just a Bug
#37: Nov 29th 2012 at 2:06:12 PM

-vomits-

edited 29th Nov '12 2:06:26 PM by StrawberrytheSecond

This is a robbery. Give me all of your money and I'll kill you.
Besserwisser from Planet of Hats Since: Dec, 2009
#38: Nov 29th 2012 at 2:06:38 PM

Men suffering abuse in video-games is nothing new. But it's not a problem exclusively limited to videogames, and is prevalent in comedy, genre work, ect. ect. What is it about video games that makes this issue particularly pressing?
Not much, I think. One could argue that it's a medium that was created and consumed primarily by men and boys who are still the majority of developers and gamers and that they don't deserve to be treated like that in a medium where they were so heavily invested in, while at the same time people try hard to accomodate the other gender. But that's a shallow argument and I know that.

I personally am discussing this here partly as a reaction to annother thread (most of you know which one) and I'm more invested in video games than other forms of media.

Guest1001 Since: Oct, 2010
#39: Nov 29th 2012 at 2:09:22 PM

Men suffering abuse in video-games is nothing new. But it's not a problem exclusively limited to videogames, and is prevalent in comedy, genre work, ect. ect. What is it about video games that makes this issue particularly pressing?
Nothing. I can only speak for myself but I'm certainly as equally-annoyed with negative male portrayals in television, cinema, music videos, etc. I'm the most passionate about video games though, so this is the medium that receives most of my attention.

Cider The Final ECW Champion from Not New York Since: May, 2009 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
The Final ECW Champion
#40: Nov 29th 2012 at 3:54:41 PM

Male characters suffering physical abuse? How about the abuse of fans who put up with male characters? Why do they keep forcing guys like Raiden on the audience?

Maybe being a wimpy, stumbling know nothing dork who cannot even succeed thanks to Metal Gears constant overarching overcomplicated gambits would be forgivable but he was a generic clean shaven pretty boy to boot. You'd think you would be able to escape that mold in a game about jaded war veterans.

"Oh Cider, he gets better in four, he's badass." If by badass you mean he gets turned into a kill machine capable of taking out tanks, not through any hard work or anything, it is all given too him, and then spends the rest of his time whining. If Raiden was a woman would anyone be calling him badass for whining about his metamorphosis while his supposed friend, a real veteran with any number of worse issues, degenerates into a geezer and dies? For that, would anyone have accepted a female character like Samus being turned into a coughing old woman with daddy issues like Snake? Snake, being reduced to a shell of his former self and given a pathetic sendoff because he committed the sin of being better liked than his replacement?

Modified Ura-nage, Torture Rack
Guest1001 Since: Oct, 2010
#41: Nov 29th 2012 at 4:14:50 PM

[up] I certainly don't like Raiden, regardless of the MGS game he's in, but having to suffer his existence isn't an issue that only affects men. And there are annoying female characters too.

Nyarly Das kann doch nicht sein! from Saksa Since: Feb, 2012
Das kann doch nicht sein!
#42: Nov 30th 2012 at 12:31:33 AM

You want to pull an Orwellian Retcon on reality, Soviet style? ... Actually I'm on board this time.
Me too. Normally I'm not like this, but that nobody can shut up about Other M is a reason why my interest in Metroid lowered quite a bit. Much.

@topic: ...Yeah, I'm sick of discussions like this before they even began, so I won't even participate. Not to mention that this is one of the last places where I'd do that.

edited 30th Nov '12 12:33:18 AM by Nyarly

People aren't as awful as the internet makes them out to be.
Thorn14 Gunpla is amazing! Since: Aug, 2010
Gunpla is amazing!
#44: Nov 30th 2012 at 1:56:22 AM

[up]

At first the comic looked like it was going alright.

Then it reached critical strawman.

edited 30th Nov '12 1:56:30 AM by Thorn14

Talby Since: Jun, 2009
#45: Nov 30th 2012 at 2:08:05 AM

[up][up]Considering there's already a thread in this forum about the portrayal of women in games, and that the gender discussion in general is overwhelmingly dominated by feminism, I don't see the harm in having a thread to address the portrayal of men as well. Or are we not allowed to talk about men's issues at all?

edited 30th Nov '12 2:08:36 AM by Talby

Thorn14 Gunpla is amazing! Since: Aug, 2010
Gunpla is amazing!
#46: Nov 30th 2012 at 2:13:45 AM

No because white straight male is "easy mode"...

Guest1001 Since: Oct, 2010
#47: Nov 30th 2012 at 2:46:15 AM

The odd thing is that for all the non-Anita Sarkeesian conversations in the topic about women in games, the talk of misandry as well as misogyny was the only thing considered a derail and threatened with moderator action. So this topic wouldn't need to exist if only the other thread was open to conversation about sexism towards both genders in video games. In fact, after Besser suggested this topic, the idea was supported by one of the feminist posters over there (King Zeal, I believe).

So Vox's post above is a supreme case of Did Not Do The Research, promoting Double Standards and, to top it off, that Strawman comic could be used to describe women's issues in the other topic, since reporting posts about misandry was encouraged.

edited 30th Nov '12 3:15:22 AM by Guest1001

Nicknacks Ding-ding! Going down... from Land Down Under Since: Oct, 2010
Ding-ding! Going down...
#48: Nov 30th 2012 at 3:05:06 AM

Surely there are better ways to approach people than naming them members of "Hate Dumbs", no? If you want to encourage fruitful discussion I implore you (and everyone else) to consider tone when posting.

Surely the end-point of these threads is to reduce strife? I'm uncertain as to how fighting and rage can help anyone.

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Guest1001 Since: Oct, 2010
#49: Nov 30th 2012 at 3:16:15 AM

Alright, I'll delete the Hate Dumb part but it's not like posting a Flame Bait comic and nothing else is ever going to be open to fruitful discussion, is it?

edited 30th Nov '12 3:16:36 AM by Guest1001

Nicknacks Ding-ding! Going down... from Land Down Under Since: Oct, 2010
Ding-ding! Going down...
#50: Nov 30th 2012 at 3:17:17 AM

Yeah, well, I know you. :P

(In the sense that I've talked with you before, and not, I KNOW WHAT YOU'RE LIKE!)

edited 30th Nov '12 3:18:15 AM by Nicknacks

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