TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Did the Southern U.S. have the right to secede?

Go To

Deadbeatloser22 from Disappeared by Space Magic (Great Old One) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
#351: Nov 20th 2015 at 12:45:08 PM

You're saying the secession wasn't about slavery?

Cornerstone Speech

The new Constitution has put at rest forever all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institutions—African slavery as it exists among us—the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson, in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the "rock upon which the old Union would split." He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted. The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old Constitution were, that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with; but the general opinion of the men of that day was, that, somehow or other, in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away... Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the idea of a Government built upon it—when the "storm came and the wind blew, it fell."

Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and moral condition.

. . . look with confidence to the ultimate universal acknowledgement of the truths upon which our system rests? It is the first government ever instituted upon the principles in strict conformity to nature, and the ordination of Providence, in furnishing the materials of human society. Many governments have been founded upon the principle of the subordination and serfdom of certain classes of the same race; such were and are in violation of the laws of nature. Our system commits no such violation of nature's laws.

Mississippi Articles of Secession

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery— the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin."

Georgia's articles of secession

"The people of Georgia having dissolved their political connection with the Government of the United States of America, present to their confederates and the world the causes which have led to the separation. For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery. They have endeavored to weaken our security, to disturb our domestic peace and tranquility, and persistently refused to comply with their express constitutional obligations to us in reference to that property, and by the use of their power in the Federal Government have striven to deprive us of an equal enjoyment of the common Territories of the Republic. This hostile policy of our confederates has been pursued with every circumstance of aggravation which could arouse the passions and excite the hatred of our people, and has placed the two sections of the Union for many years past in the condition of virtual civil war. Our people, still attached to the Union from habit and national traditions, and averse to change, hoped that time, reason, and argument would bring, if not redress, at least exemption from further insults, injuries, and dangers. Recent events have fully dissipated all such hopes and demonstrated the necessity of separation. Our Northern confederates, after a full and calm hearing of all the facts, after a fair warning of our purpose not to submit to the rule of the authors of all these wrongs and injuries, have by a large majority committed the Government of the United States into their hands. The people of Georgia, after an equally full and fair and deliberate hearing of the case, have declared with equal firmness that they shall not rule over them. A brief history of the rise, progress, and policy of anti-slavery and the political organization into whose hands the administration of the Federal Government has been committed will fully justify the pronounced verdict of the people of Georgia."

"Yup. That tasted purple."
andersonh1 Since: Apr, 2009
#352: Nov 20th 2015 at 12:59:11 PM

You're saying the secession wasn't about slavery?

No, I didn't. I said it wasn't ONLY about slavery. Slavery was not the ONLY issue.

I hope that's clear. Anyone looking at history honestly cannot deny that slavery was a major factor. But it was far from the only one. I've already pointed out that the last four states to secede did not do so over slavery, but over Lincoln's call for them to provide troops to march into South Carolina after Fort Sumter, making the issue for them all about sovereignty. And that's just one example.

I agree with Shelby Foote on the subject: anyone who says secession and the war was about nothing but slavery is just as delusional as anyone who says that slavery had nothing to do with it.

edited 20th Nov '15 1:02:55 PM by andersonh1

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#353: Nov 20th 2015 at 1:00:22 PM

It was about slavery or the protection of slavery. End of discussion. I think we've about used this topic up.

/sigh

It disturbs me that the Republican nomination is bringing this kind of stupidity out of the woodwork. You're far from the only one who's bought into it.

edited 20th Nov '15 1:01:13 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#354: Nov 20th 2015 at 1:01:14 PM

Is that the cue to lock the thread that could easily have just been a discussion over in the Race thread?

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
#355: Nov 20th 2015 at 1:01:54 PM

And yet you seem curiously unwilling to credit the Confederacy with its virtual monopoly on crimes against humanity. If Sherman's march is the absolute best you have to accuse the Union, it only highlights how unbalanced the moral scales of the conflict were.

edited 20th Nov '15 1:02:05 PM by Achaemenid

Schild und Schwert der Partei
Deadbeatloser22 from Disappeared by Space Magic (Great Old One) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
#356: Nov 20th 2015 at 1:02:27 PM

No, I didn't. I said it wasn't ONLY about slavery. Slavery was not the ONLY issue.

So why does the Cornerstone Address explicitly state that the Confederacy's raison d'etre is the preservation of the slavery of African Americans?

"Yup. That tasted purple."
andersonh1 Since: Apr, 2009
#357: Nov 20th 2015 at 1:06:03 PM

[up]That's one man's opinion. Look at other speeches and other documents of the time, and you will find some that agree with Stephens, and some that don't. Jefferson Davis has a different rationale entirely in his inaugural address.

And yet you seem curiously unwilling to credit the Confederacy with its virtual monopoly on crimes against humanity. If Sherman's march is the absolute best you have to accuse the Union, it only highlights how unbalanced the moral scales of the conflict were.

The Confederacy hardly had a "monopoly on crimes against humanity". Sheridan's destruction of the Shenandoah Valley, at Grants orders. The New York Draft riots. Sherman's March to the Sea. Try to imagine George Bush ordering his generals to do what Sherman and Sheridan did against civilian targets, and tell me it wouldn't be considered a war crime.

Go look up the New York Draft Riots if you want to see the cruelty that Northerners were capable of when it came to black men and women. And orphans of course, burned alive in their orphanage.

edited 20th Nov '15 1:13:27 PM by andersonh1

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#358: Nov 20th 2015 at 1:06:41 PM

[up][up]Damn liberal revisionists lying about their reasons for secession in the original secession documents.

edited 20th Nov '15 1:06:54 PM by Hodor2

Deadbeatloser22 from Disappeared by Space Magic (Great Old One) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
#359: Nov 20th 2015 at 1:06:49 PM

One man who just happens to be the Vice President of the Confederate States of America.

"Yup. That tasted purple."
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#360: Nov 20th 2015 at 1:08:37 PM

Funny how we have five or six people arguing against someone who's clearly taking their facts from neoconfederate apologists. It's almost as if this sort of bad-faith trolling is distracting us from genuine conversation. Yeah, locking. andersonh1, you'd do well to cut your line of argument out if you intend to remain a member of this site.

edited 20th Nov '15 1:08:45 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Add Post

Total posts: 360
Top