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Your Iconic Superman (and why?)

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HyperAlbion Taking Back our 40 acres Since: Sep, 2012
Taking Back our 40 acres
#51: Nov 7th 2012 at 8:03:57 PM

You said that we should stop rebooting and end him, if we didn't reboot him, than there wouldn't be a superman anymore smartass. Or are you just miffed you didnt get a second Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow? Superman can never end, and while specific iterations of him may come in and out of vogue you're never going to get a firm conclusion to the narrative, you're int he wrong medium for that.

Also, how is developing technology (a natural progressive and representational force) akin to just busting into places WildStorm style and "fixing them?"

edited 7th Nov '12 8:06:51 PM by HyperAlbion

Casual talk is a debate you have to win.
KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#52: Nov 7th 2012 at 8:12:47 PM

You said that we should stop rebooting and end him, if we didn't reboot him, than there wouldn't be a superman anymore smartass. Or are you just miffed you didnt get a second Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?

No I didn't, smartass. I said that IF you're going to reboot him (you know, like they just did), then END the previous version before starting the next one.

Here are my Exact Words:

If you want to end that Superman's saga and begin anew, then do so. End it. Show us what 26 years of comic history have led to and how Superman has left a profound mark upon the world.

Actually read what people post before you reply.

Also, how is developing technology (a natural progressive and representational force) akin to just busting into places Wild Storm style and "fixing them?"

Because I didn't say jack shit about busting into places and fixing problems. Because Superman wouldn't have to. With the number of abilities and technology he has at his disposal, he would be perfectly capable of fixing a vast number of problems without imposing anything on anyone. Just being on deck to stop tsunamis and earthquakes (like the ones that killed THOUSANDS in Asia, polluted the hell out of the oceans and cities, and caused a nuclear catastrophe) would solve a great many of the world's problems right there. There's also the cleaner energy sources that he's often used to make kryptonian technology.

Just THOSE TWO things alone would VASTLY improve life on Earth, not impose a damn thing on anybody, but still leave other problems for the world to fix.

edited 7th Nov '12 8:17:12 PM by KingZeal

HyperAlbion Taking Back our 40 acres Since: Sep, 2012
Taking Back our 40 acres
#53: Nov 7th 2012 at 8:16:09 PM

No, smartass, you said that any story were Superman tries to be "proactive" becomes Beware the Superman via Reed Richards Is Useless. That tropes very definition involves Superhuman removal of self-determination. Superman helping out our Sciences is classic aspect of his character.*

From Hamilton to Quintum to Tyson. I even said my Iconic Superman was the Ame-Comi Powergirl, where Kryptonian influence on Earth is akin to our other immigrants, with culture technology and Politics integrating. She has a giant Supertower with an S Shield on top of it for Christ's sake.

edited 7th Nov '12 8:48:01 PM by HyperAlbion

Casual talk is a debate you have to win.
AtomJames I need a drink Since: Apr, 2010
I need a drink
#54: Nov 7th 2012 at 8:18:37 PM

@Hyper Albion: I just realized what I said. And you are correct. Honest mistake.

Theres sex and death and human grime in monochrome for one thin dime and at least the trains all run on time but they dont go anywhere.
KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#55: Nov 7th 2012 at 8:23:14 PM

No, smartass, you said hat any story were Superman tries to be "proactive" becomes Beware the Superman via Reed Richards Is Useless. That tropes very definition involves Superhuman removal of self-determination.

You again completely misread everything I said. My entire point is that THIS IS WRONG. Superman does not have to invoke Beware the Superman to be proactive. The entire reason I said that is because there is a much better way to do it that does NOT involve stopping humans from self-determination.

And Superman "advancing sciences" is barely every touched upon. Most of the time, the story Hand Waves some excuse why Superman cannot advance humanity without causing some sort of disaster. The stories where he actually does anything different are far, far less than the stories in which he doesn't.

And Superman aiding against Natural Disasters is done so much it's almost Cliche

Not the point, though. Every time he does it, he is greatly benefiting humanity. And without going all Plutonian.

edited 7th Nov '12 8:26:24 PM by KingZeal

HyperAlbion Taking Back our 40 acres Since: Sep, 2012
Taking Back our 40 acres
#56: Nov 7th 2012 at 8:49:57 PM

So you complain Superman needs to do more Science and Disaster relief? Even though he does that all the time?

Can you even cite some of these so-called ever prevalent "Science gone wrong" stories?

Casual talk is a debate you have to win.
KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#57: Nov 7th 2012 at 9:02:51 PM

I have a better idea. You name stories in which he's shared some technology that's advanced mankind as a whole.

Keeping in mind that I already said All Star Superman is an example.

edited 7th Nov '12 9:03:34 PM by KingZeal

HyperAlbion Taking Back our 40 acres Since: Sep, 2012
Taking Back our 40 acres
#58: Nov 7th 2012 at 10:05:19 PM

DCU: STAR labs has been aided by Krypotech

DCAU: Superman aides by sharing tech. For example he donated his original rocket do scientific testing.

And if you want me to list all examples of Superman fighting Volcanoes and Tidal waves we would be here all night.

Casual talk is a debate you have to win.
KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#59: Nov 7th 2012 at 10:10:12 PM

So explain exactly where those technologies did something to advance everyday human life. You know, not STAR Labs, but Johnny on the street.

Specific storyarcs, please.

edited 7th Nov '12 10:10:38 PM by KingZeal

HyperAlbion Taking Back our 40 acres Since: Sep, 2012
Taking Back our 40 acres
#60: Nov 7th 2012 at 10:36:19 PM

So a large scale science foundation's research and the American Museum of Natural History don't help the "man on the street" now?

Your goalpost moving has hit Karl Rove levels here, Zeal.

Casual talk is a debate you have to win.
RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#61: Nov 7th 2012 at 10:59:23 PM

I think what Zeal's asking is, do we actually see society changed as a result of these technological innovations? Is cancer actually cured? Is a replacement for fossil fuels found? Are teleporters used for mass transit?

HyperAlbion Taking Back our 40 acres Since: Sep, 2012
Taking Back our 40 acres
#62: Nov 7th 2012 at 11:08:00 PM

Well given both universes have higher tech levels on average (moon and mars bases in both the dcu and dcau, teleporters all kinds of super- science) its quite safe to say they exist T least twenty minutes into the future from now. No one's ever gone out to directly state that these innovations come from Krypton, but STAR labs has been responsible for a LOT of supertech in several universes, so to say there's no progress in a world were they're Actively terraforming seems a bit myopic.

Casual talk is a debate you have to win.
KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#63: Nov 8th 2012 at 2:38:34 AM

STAR Labs is responsible for a lot of advanced tech that has nothing to do with Suoerman, so we can't assume that everything they have or made is Kryptonian. Similarly, Metropolis was the City of Tomorrow long before Superman got there.

I also asked for specific story arcs that demonstrate Kryptonian tech improving the quality of life worldwide and averting Reed Richards Is Useless.

Please don't insult me if all you're going to do is avoid answering the actual question.

edited 8th Nov '12 2:41:42 AM by KingZeal

HyperAlbion Taking Back our 40 acres Since: Sep, 2012
Taking Back our 40 acres
#64: Nov 8th 2012 at 7:50:06 AM

I'm sorry, who is the one who began the whole "smartass" volley? If Superman giving his tech to STAR Labs and STAR Labs making tech for humanity is too much of a logical deduction for you to make than I can’t help you. You asked for Superman helping human science and I did; now you actually ask for how each individual dedication paid off? You can’t just keep goalpost moving.

A few years later they were on Mars. Seeing Superman donate his stuff to science and then seeing the very same organization he donated the stuff to make wunderwaffen should be enough to recognize that he made contributions. It’s like you’re asking to see where each individual cent of Lucas 4 billion went before recognizing him as giving to charity. It’s pedantic and obstinate. And just to keep up the Phrase Catch, you’re a smartass.

edited 8th Nov '12 7:50:35 AM by HyperAlbion

Casual talk is a debate you have to win.
KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#65: Nov 8th 2012 at 8:24:33 AM

I'm sorry, who is the one who began the whole "smartass" volley? If Superman giving his tech to STAR Labs and STAR Labs making tech for humanity is too much of a logical deduction for you to make than I can’t help you. You asked for Superman helping human science and I did; now you actually ask for how each individual dedication paid off? You can’t just keep goalpost moving.

That's not moving the damn goalpost, because the ENTIRE POINT to the Reed Richards Is Useless post is that it doesn't help the common man. The trope picture is of Reed Richards inventing a universal translator. A translator that has NOT, in any way, been mass-produced to the point that language barriers are not a problem on Earth. It doesn't matter if Reed gave it to SHIELD or Stark Industries, or whoever the hell else. The ENTIRE POINT to the trope is that this amazing discovery did NOTHING to change the Marvel Universe from being Like Reality, Unless Noted. The same is true of both the mainstream DCU and the DCAU despite having a selfless and heroic being from an far more advanced civilization walking amongst them.

So let me ask an honest question: Batman Beyond took place 40 years after the main DCU. What importance did "we were on Mars" have during that time? Can you give specific examples?

edited 8th Nov '12 8:28:08 AM by KingZeal

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#66: Nov 8th 2012 at 9:00:28 AM

I think the point King Zeal is making is direct causality and correlation. Saying A happened, then B happened, does not prove either. It doesn't matter if Superman gave science all the cures to all the diseases in the world if people are still dying from cancer in the next issue, and the fact that Superman gave his tech to humans and then, later, humans had Mars bases doesn't actually prove a causality link between the two. Maybe Wayne Industries invented the Mars base. Maybe one of the other bajillion alien supers did. Maybe human science just advanced to that point. There's no provable connection between the events.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#67: Nov 8th 2012 at 9:22:55 AM

Exactly. We're told in vague terms that Superman (or Reed Richards or whoever), does small things for humanity. Despite the trope, we're Hand Wavingly told that Reed isn't always useless. He is often said to create small patents for devices to greatly improve them. (For example, no one really knows who owns the patents for every part that goes into a commercial air conditioner or blow dryer.) Supposedly, small improvements are being made to their world's way of life everyday.

But that doesn't change the fact that no matter how many fantastic inventions/discoveries these characters make, the only times they ever apply is in one-off situations ("we're on Mars") or when solving equally-fantastic problems. The real-world problems that would be solved just from one Kryptonian Sunstone still remain unsolved, despite everything.

edited 8th Nov '12 10:36:00 AM by KingZeal

HyperAlbion Taking Back our 40 acres Since: Sep, 2012
Taking Back our 40 acres
#68: Nov 8th 2012 at 2:23:28 PM

Yet your principle claim was that Superman doesn't give his tech to humanity and progress the world where I've been showing examples of Superman sharing his tech and a progressed world. None of which lead to the Beware the Superman morals you say they always lead to. The DC Us all have tech levels significantly higher than our own, to say that they are like reality unless noted when several very large breaks from reality have been noted just makes you a smartsss.

Casual talk is a debate you have to win.
KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#69: Nov 8th 2012 at 2:32:33 PM

Except that wasn't what I said, and your "examples" (which they aren't) has nothing to do with with tropes I spoke of.

I said that the writers will most often use some sort of hand wave or excuse to explain why Superman doesn't use his technology to avert Reed Richards Is Useless. Whenever he tries to, it either backfires or he gets called out for "going too far" in trying to solve mankind's problems. I didn't say he NEVER shares his technology. I didn't say there's NEVER any sort of progress. Just that it never subverts Reed Richards Is Useless because that would eliminate the DCU from being Like Reality, Unless Noted.

edited 8th Nov '12 2:34:07 PM by KingZeal

DCC Since: Jun, 2011
#70: Nov 8th 2012 at 2:43:10 PM

People who complain about Long Runners developing inconsistencies to maintain the status quo are being generous with other people's money. It's easy to boldly call for massive changes in somebody else's cash cow. It's easy to sacrifice *somebody else's* income for your sense of artistic or plot integrity.

Solution: buy DC Comics. A few hundred million dollars should be enough.

Then you can order the writers to have Superman solve all the DCU's problems. And order that this never be rebooted. You'd be completely free to ignore whether sales dropped if you wished.

Seriously—that is the easiest way to make a desired official change to any intellectual property. Buy it yourself. (No, it's not easy. Just the easiest way.)

Cheaper option: write fanfic where Superman fixes all the problems. Who knows, maybe you'll be able to pull it off. Or talk someone else into writing it. It won't be an official change, but it won't cost hundreds of millions of dollars, either.

HyperAlbion Taking Back our 40 acres Since: Sep, 2012
Taking Back our 40 acres
#71: Nov 8th 2012 at 2:47:52 PM

And yet the DCU'S tech has been noted countless times as being so far from reality's that you claiming that the world inst advanced enough by some atbitrat rubric makes you pedantic. The DC Us as seen in comics and tv shoes have access to massive teleportation networks, ftp travel, incredibly complex space stations, singularity level ai, and all manner of hypertech. There are skeletonmen in the cabinet for Christa sake.

This applies to marvel to, given all the rediculously advanced Stark Products or SHIELD equipment in use. Just because you don't have a personal Spaceship One doesn't mean astronautics hasn't advanced in the past seven years, just because the world doesn't look like The Jetsons (and given your Batman Beyond comment , it does) doesn't mean tech hasn't advanced. You claim these comocbook worlds aren't as advanced ss they should be when we see them casually at tech levels at least several decades ahead of ours.

Casual talk is a debate you have to win.
KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#72: Nov 8th 2012 at 4:14:36 PM

That still doesn't have a damn thing to do with this conversation. We're specifically TALKING about technology and science that solves life as we know it. No one ever said that FTL travel or spaceships or shrink rays and shit don't exist. But as the damn trope for Reed Richards Is Useless says, these are fantastic solutions that are only used in fantastic situations. It does NOTHING to assist everyday life for the common man or solve prominent everyday problems. That was the entire POINT to the conversation.

edited 8th Nov '12 4:20:24 PM by KingZeal

AtomJames I need a drink Since: Apr, 2010
I need a drink
#73: Nov 8th 2012 at 4:26:11 PM

Ok guys, you've made your points. Lets move on before the thread gets locked. It just the internet after all. Lets change the topic a tad, alright.

Now, what's everyones' iconic Krypton? Personally, I love Richard Donner's version with elements of the silver age portrayal.

Theres sex and death and human grime in monochrome for one thin dime and at least the trains all run on time but they dont go anywhere.
HyperAlbion Taking Back our 40 acres Since: Sep, 2012
Taking Back our 40 acres
#74: Nov 8th 2012 at 5:05:02 PM

As I've said, Bronze Age Krypton. It's was a pulp wonder world with a 10000 year history of awesome.

Gaze in Wonder:

http://supermanthrutheages.com/tales2/chronicles/1/

edited 8th Nov '12 6:11:10 PM by HyperAlbion

Casual talk is a debate you have to win.
AtomJames I need a drink Since: Apr, 2010
I need a drink
#75: Nov 8th 2012 at 5:11:08 PM

Huh. With the Bottle City of Kandor, you'd think Superman wouldn't have to go to so much trouble to find out about his roots or Kryptonian culture.

Theres sex and death and human grime in monochrome for one thin dime and at least the trains all run on time but they dont go anywhere.

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