In my original post, I said that Beware the Superman is reinforced with tropes like Reed Richards Is Useless and Superman Stays Out of Gotham.
My point is that it's sometimes the result of slowly becoming more and more abusive with their power, even if their intentions started off pure.
edited 4th Nov '12 5:03:33 AM by KingZeal
Besides Justice Lord Superman and Superman Prime he has thousands of knock offs because he's an Over Used Copycat Character. The Boys guy, The Authority Guy, The Plutonian, The Sentry, Exile Hyperion...and they all suck, Hancock and The Nextwave Captain are alight because they are more like Golden Age Superman, just even more of dicks than he was.
I don't mind the Superman and Superman ripoffs that are dicks that indulge a little, but really are trying to do good with their power. I can't relate to the beware the evil alien ones. Maybe that does make sense for an alien character but it doesn't make an appealing character.
edited 6th Nov '12 5:51:27 PM by Cider
Modified Ura-nage, Torture Rack
Respect the Red Right Hand
Superman is a lot like Reed Richards; he's a character who, given the potential he has to fix the world, ultimately is left two options, neither pleasant: failure or apathy.
Either he tries to fix the world and fails due to corruption, contrived plot sequence, or some other means, or he never tries at all and his reason for not trying is handwaved away.
Ultimately, he has to fail because if he succeeded in fixing the world, the world would be fixed. Due to the ongoing nature of his medium, that would leave writers telling stories about utopian people living in a utopian society, continuing to be happy in their utopian world. There's nothing interesting about a story like that.
Infinite potential characters like that always bring that conflict into light. Superman is a character that strives to be a savior of mankind and has every ounce of potential to be precisely that; unfortunately for him, that means he either MUST be a lazy, apathetic failure or a corrupt, evil monster, because he can never be allowed to succeed at his mission in life, and with all his power and ability, "It's just too big for him to accomplish" is not an acceptable answer for why he can't.
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Actually, Tobias, I think it's less likely that Superman would fix the world and create a utopia and more likely that he'd fix the world's current problems and introduce a whole new host of them. I mean, from our perspective, the modern world solved a huge number of problems from between pre-Historian to Medieval ages, but that doesn't mean we fixed all of them or failed to create new ones. I would actually find it interesting to see where a more logical and optimistic version of the DC Universe would take us. The difference between this and how things are now is that comic books assume the potential problems tend to outweigh the benefits. After all, superheroes were born during the end of the second Industrial Revolution and the era of Freud saying everyone was a pervert, Tesla's crazy death rays, Einstein theorizing that the universe is random, Nazi-funded eugenics, and of course, the atomic bomb. Makes sense that Science Is Bad would be a prevailing Aesop of the genre.
The more likely answer is that solving the world's problems would just prevent the DC Universe from being Like Reality, Unless Noted.
edited 5th Nov '12 12:24:32 PM by KingZeal
What he said.
In-Universe, Superman doesn't "solve the world's problems" because to do so he'd have to become a despot, and he views imposing his will on others, however benignly intended, as inherently wrong. He sees it as better to inspire rather than compel (this is quite a tonal shift from the Golden Age Superman, who saw it as his role to stand up to those no one else could stand up to — not that the two mindsets are mutually exclusive).
From a narrative perspective, unless you're Neal Gaiman writing a Marvelman series (and even Gaiman only wrote it as a limited series), the idea of trying to concoct exciting stories set in a super-hero created utopia doesn't seem to appeal to many writers.
Still, I wouldn't mind at all seeing stories that deal with what kind of impact Superman has on the world around him.
There's no reason a story about a superhero creating a utopia can't be exciting and fun. The trouble with Superman doing so is that Superman is an ongoing series with no intended endpoint, so you have to keep coming up with new ideas and can't change the world too much, otherwise it becomes even less relevant as time goes on. Thus, the way to do it is with a finite-length comic that doesn't tie into a wider universe.
Ukrainian Red CrossThe best way to do it would be to (as I complained about in the Reboot thread) is to actually end the various incarnations of Superman instead of just leaving everything unresolved via Cosmic Retcon.
What did all of the life lessons, individual struggles, and personal sacrifices that post-Crisis Superman experienced lead to? Sure, if you consider fiction as written for the observer, then I'm sure someone may have gotten meaning out of it here in the real world, but that's rather impersonal to the character and makes individual efforts that much more unrelatable.
If you want to end that Superman's saga and begin anew, then do so. End it. Show us what 26 years of comic history have led to and how Superman has left a profound mark upon the world.
I really look up to the "Good incarnate" Superman, the one you see in stuff like Superman Vs The Elite. His speech in that movie (and the series it was based on) makes me feel all warmhearted.
I usually don't see Superman as... Well... A man. He's an icon and an ideal. He's what a hero should be.
edited 6th Nov '12 11:44:56 AM by ShirowShirow
You are not alone.I have trouble with the idea of Superman as an icon and ideal to live up to. My main problem with the idea of Superman as an example is that Superman is naturally gifted at everything. He's never had to work for his power; he just gets to have it because he's great.
The modern depiction of Superman as the human ideal suggests merit granted at birth; coupling him with archvillain Lex Luthor adds deeper implications that hard work and effort are villainous qualities, creating the ultimate message that if you weren't born special, then don't try to be.
The same claims could be made of a lot of superheroes, Marvel and DC both, but Superman's the only one that is looked up to as the shining example of what people should be.
edited 6th Nov '12 12:41:10 PM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.The modern depiction of Superman as the human ideal suggests merit granted at birth; coupling him with archvillain Lex Luthor adds deeper implications that hard work and effort are villainous qualities, creating the ultimate message that if you weren't born special, then don't try to be.
That implies that being born the Smartest Man on Earth doesn't take phenomenal luck by itself.
Lex Luthor isn't a model of Randian hard work. He's just as lucky as Superman. Being born with a high IQ doesn't happen to everybody. Being born rich (in most depictions) does NOT happen to everybody. And hell, even if the first two jackpots are hit, being able to make use of intellect and wealth certainly doesn't happen to everybody.
Superman being born Superman is only more phenomenal than Lex being born Lex because Krypton doesn't exist. His extraordinary abilties also wouldn't mean much if he didn't have the aptitude or fortitude to go along with it.
Which in itself is something that requires hard work and talent. There are a lot of innovative and forward-thinking people in real life and history. Most of them don't leave a positive impression. What makes Superman special isn't that he's "perfect"; it's that he TRIES. Most superheroes don't. Even Spider-man, whose entire schtick is responsibility, tends to opt for self-punishment and deprecation rather than improvement.
edited 6th Nov '12 4:16:14 PM by KingZeal
I've always read Luthor as a negative reflection of Superman, a profoundly gifted individual who sees his gifts as setting him above humanity (whearas Superman, obviously, does NOT set himself above humanity). I think the intellectual abilities vs. physical abilities is irrelevant in this instance (though that is how Luthor himself would likely characterize things). I liked in All Star Superman how Grant Morrison had Superman point out that Luthor could have "saved the world" years ago, if it had mattered to him.
Elliot S. Maggin (in my opinion, the best regular Superman writer of the Bronze Age) frequently postulated that Luthor would eventually get over himself, reform, and actually become a Leo Quintum-like figure to Superman in the future; but then, his Luthor was always careful never to kill anyone...
There actually is a fan theory that say Leo Quintum IS Lex Luthor from the future. I personally love this theory although it does diminish Lex's character in the animated film.
Theres sex and death and human grime in monochrome for one thin dime and at least the trains all run on time but they dont go anywhere.The modern depiction of Superman as the human ideal suggests merit granted at birth...
That's really one of the reasons why I see him as an ideal and not a "Man". For a long time I only read Manga because the heroes in those stories actually felt like they deserved the strength they had. But I can't really think of any that are inherently moral as Superman. Superman embodies humility, justice, freedom, and all that good stuff. The fact that he has superpowers (Or the fact that he's so famous, in the real world) elevates him to the position of icon, but it's how he uses those powers and not the powers themselves that make him who and what he is. An example to follow.
You are not alone.![]()
![]()
![]()
That's a fair point about Luthor, but I'm not sure. A lot of people who are "stupid" really aren't; they just don't try hard enough. Intelligence, in my experience, isn't just what you were born with; it's something that can be earned through hard work and dedication. When you don't understand something, it's easier to give up and go, "Well, I guess I'm just too stupid to get it," than it is to spend the time and energy learning it.
Some people are naturally smarter than others, but being born special doesn't make you the smartest man on Earth; it puts you a little bit ahead of the curve, but it still takes a lot of work and dedication to make something of it. The knowledge of how to build something and wisdom not to blow yourself up doing it still have to be earned the hard way.
It just seems to me that it's easier to be a boyscout when you're not in any danger yourself. It's easy to do the moral thing when you have nothing to fear from the consequences. It's easy to condemn people for their mistakes when you've never had to walk in their shoes.
When was the last time Superman had to choose between crime and his family starving? Or decide whether illegal narcotics that actually work were a better option for someone he loved than legal medication that was slowly destroying her body and killing her?
It's easy to do the morally right thing when you're floating above the city, invulnerable to everything, and have nothing to fear. The modern depiction of Superman just seems to me as someone who's never been broken, desperate, and in a position where he had to scrape and crawl to have anything at all in the world, and that makes it hard for me to see him as an example.
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.Some people are naturally smarter than others, but being born special doesn't make you the smartest man on Earth; it puts you a little bit ahead of the curve, but it still takes a lot of work and dedication to make something of it. The knowledge of how to build something and wisdom not to blow yourself up doing it still have to be earned the hard way.
So you pretty much answered your own problem about Superman. In the same way that being born with an obscenely high IQ doesn't make you a super scientist, being born with powers and abilities far beyond mortal men doesn't automatically make you a crusader for truth, justice and all that other good stuff. What makes him Superman is the capacity to do the greatest good with his abilities. Superman is known for being able to revert disasters like hurricanes, tornados, earthquakes and doomsday asteroids. These are often problems that he can't just punch away. Well, sometimes they are, but that's no different from Luthor being able to "think" away problems. Luthor building some sort of Do-Anything Robot with vague soft science is no different that Superman applying just the right force to stop an exploding volcano.
It's also dismissive of physical labor as an intellectual quality. Farmers, engineers, and custodians aren't necessarily dumb people, especially if they can do a lot of work within their physical abilities. Superman, after all, learned his work ethic from being raised on a farm, so he's pretty well-versed on how to convert physical labor into a bountiful gain.
When was the last time Superman had to choose between crime and his family starving? Or decide whether illegal narcotics that actually work were a better option for someone he loved than legal medication that was slowly destroying her body and killing her?
It's easy to do the morally right thing when you're floating above the city, invulnerable to everything, and have nothing to fear. The modern depiction of Superman just seems to me as someone who's never been broken, desperate, and in a position where he had to scrape and crawl to have anything at all in the world, and that makes it hard for me to see him as an example. Give a man a fire, and he is warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
I'm sorry, but that's vaguely a "First World Problems" argument. Let's put it this way: just because Warren Buffet has never had to worry about where his next meal was coming from or how to pay the rent doesn't mean he hasn't had to figure out how to stop a hostile takeover of his company. Or how to deal with negative PR. Or how to best fund a political agenda.
Similarly, just because Superman doesn't worry about how to feed his crack-addicted girlfriend and her baby doesn't mean he doesn't stress over how to write an article to generate sympathy for people being oppressed by a West African drug lord. Or how to stop a race of invading aliens who aren't evil but are simply Fighting for a Homeland. Or how to unshrink Kandor. In fact, Superman takes on everyone's problems (as demonstrated in You Are Better Than You Think You Are), so if anything, Superman deals with more personal, human-interest BS than even Batman does because he can hear that woman who cut her wrists in Wyoming that he was just too far away to save.
Just because someone has never actually been in the gutter doesn't mean they're "above" anything. And it sure as hell doesn't mean that it's morally easy to do the right thing when literally hundreds (if not billions) of lives are dependent upon your actions (both immediate and long-term) every day of your life.
![]()
There's something to that actually; Superman is also (When written right of course) very non-judgemental. He realizes that his powers are a unique gift, and his position is quite priveleged.
He understands that sometimes cops need to shoot a criminal. He doesn't need to use lethal force, so he doesn't. And he doesn't believe other people who don't need to should.
He understands that some people have had a rough go of it. He has too, in a lot of ways, but he still appreciates how lucky he is. That's why he works so hard to alleviate others' suffering.
He understands that he can't force his exact viewpoint on the world. He guides as many people as he can towards the ideal, but doesn't reprimand people who try for failing. He just reassures them that they're never beyond redemption.
edited 7th Nov '12 10:37:36 AM by ShirowShirow
You are not alone.Alright, I concede the point. It's just difficult for me to grasp. Most of my exposure to Superman has been as a shining beacon of justice who never has to make hard choices or, when he does, effortlessly finds a third option to avoid having to make them anyway.
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.@Jhimmibhob Could you go into detail about Krypton being darker. I always found Krypton was best when used as a pulp Sci-Fi Wonderland rather than "Generic Cyberpunk" It's Oz and Wonderland and Barsoom and Hyboria and Mongo all rolled up into one. Just check out the Chronicles
.
@Robbery Why do you allow Kandor and Phantom Zone men over Supergirl? Also, why do you prefer Ma and Pa dead?
@Zeal Staus Qou is god because well it's true. Superman cant punch world problems away it fails everytime he tries because that's what would happen. He'd either have to go full Authority or turn Earth into Bushes Iraq writ-large. There was a potent scene were Superman came to a war and wiped out all the weapons. They threw rocks at each other. Superman works best as a natural progressive and representational force, not as God.
@imadinasour That vie of Batman is as ignorant as "Aquaman is lame because he just talks to fish." The dude had countless charities, bankrolls the Justice League and has an entire global Private Police Force at his call. The dude could run for President.
@Robbery BRILLIANT! Cop/Fireman is great. Also note that Batman isnt really a superhero, he's a detective, or in general a "crimfighter." What he does takes a lot more than superpowers and Supes doesn't have the mind for the detective work and Gotham ingenuity to work there.
@Drifter READ ALL STAR. No excuse, you can get it for free of the net in less than an hour, and buy it from amazon for less that 30 bucks.
@Zeal So your way to fix Superman is to, end Superman. Yeah that's a good idea. Why dont we have Gilligan get off the Island, Jack get home and Gargamel catch the Smurfs.
@James How would making Lex Leo DIMINISH Luthor in the film, it actually makes him that more important given how it ends for Lex and Clark.
Also Ame-Comi Powergirl was the best Superman treatment I've seen.
She's used Krypton tech to turn Metropolis into a true "City-Of-Tomorow" and is responsible for all of that DCU's classic Supertech.
The Fortress is the Capital of New Krypton*, which is one of the International Supporters of it's JL (along with Paradise Island, Mars, Atlantis, and Oa an idea I myself had).
And she's the Spiritual leader of the Kryptonian diaspora, a concept that I as a black man really sympathized with.
And of course, she looks like this:
Really that whole line is a result of giving [[The Amanda Connor]] [[Jane Fonda Justin Gray]] [[Crew Jimmy Palmiotti]] acid and cialiis and being told to let loose. It isnt good in the least but it is very, very inspired and creative.
edited 7th Nov '12 8:02:15 PM by HyperAlbion
Casual talk is a debate you have to win.That's bullshit. As I already said, even if Superman solved all of the problems we currently have, that wouldn't mean there wouldn't be new problems to fight.
Or do you believe that the invention of rescue helicopters, antibiotics and microscopic surgery completely eliminated the ability for people to die?
Except they DID end Superman, smartass. Post-Crisis Superman is gone, dead and buried. Except he didn't get an actual ending.

I think you're mis-using Beware the Superman. What you're talking about is a really contrived version of Reed Richards Is Useless.
edited 3rd Nov '12 11:49:33 PM by Distortion00