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JoseB from NL Since: Jan, 2001
#51: Dec 13th 2013 at 1:15:04 AM

[up] And the current prime minister, Rajoy, is also Galician. Galicia has provided a really "interesting" crop of politicians :P

As to the Basque Country, they actually have a really sweet deal as it stands, and in general they don't feel like doing anything about it. You may not know it but the Basque Country is independent in all but name — they have full control over their taxes, every last cent of tax is kept within the Basque Country, and almost every aspect of government is in their hands. The only things the Basque Government does not control directly are defence and foreign affairs; the first is not very much of an issue, and as to the second, they keep "commercial representations" abroad anyway.

I take issue with the comments by Caissa's Death Angel, though. It might surprise you, but a lot of Spaniards (myself included) have absolutely no problem with Catalonia holding a referendum and doing whatever it wants. Many, like myself, will feel sad about it if Catalonia decides to go its own way —after all, Catalonia (or, to be precise, the old kingdom of Aragon) and Castille have been together for almost 550 years, rather more than the 310 years or so that have passed since the Union of Scotland and England. But this is just a sentimental thing; we (that is, the Spaniards who think and feel like myself) wouldn't dream of actually keeping them against their will.

Please do not conflate the actions of a government which is actively despised by a LOT of us with the general attitude of the country.

edited 13th Dec '13 1:20:04 AM by JoseB

GLUUUURK!
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#52: Dec 13th 2013 at 3:44:57 AM

[up]Well said, dear feller.

Well, actually if they became independent within the next few years I would be quite inconvenienced, for administrative reasons, but I still fully sipport the right of folks to only associate in consensual agreements, rather than being stuck with a situation that was imposed on them at gunpoint.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
CaissasDeathAngel House Lewis: Sanity is Relative from Dumfries, SW Scotland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
House Lewis: Sanity is Relative
#53: Dec 13th 2013 at 5:45:51 AM

Just to be clear, I always mea the government when I mention a country. When I say, the Spanish, I'm referring to the people. thought that was clear.

My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.
Xopher001 Since: Jul, 2012
#54: Dec 13th 2013 at 5:55:58 AM

Sigh. It seems that's how things are a lot these days. Sometimes I wonder whether the people of a country would decide to go to war with another country. It feels like the givernment makes all those sorts of decisions. Anyways derail

tricksterson Never Trust from Behind you with an icepick Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Never Trust
#55: Dec 13th 2013 at 7:56:00 AM

So why can't the Catalans get a deal similar to the Basques? Or don't they want one?

Trump delenda est
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#56: Dec 13th 2013 at 8:50:00 AM

I think that's option 1 on the referendum. To become a state within Spain.

Edit: Question is "(1) Do you want Catalonia to become a state?" "(2) If so, do you want that state to be independent?" . So if you go [yes] [no] then you want Catalonia to become a state within Spain, which I assume is the Basques setup.

edited 13th Dec '13 8:51:20 AM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#57: Dec 13th 2013 at 11:22:24 AM

Doesn't Catalonia account for a substantial (like about 20%) amount of Spain's tax base? Not sure giving them total control of their taxes would work well; that's generally not how federalism works...

edited 13th Dec '13 11:22:51 AM by Rationalinsanity

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Quag15 Since: Mar, 2012
#58: Apr 9th 2014 at 9:45:46 AM

Link is in Portuguese. Basically, the Spanish Parliament rejected the request for a referendum.

I'll translate this bit:

Offering in exchange of a referendum a revision of the Constitution which would imply a strengthening of the autonomical powers, the leader of the Socialist opposition, Alfredo Pérez Rubalcaba, finished his statement saying that voting “no” was the best way to defend Spain and Catalonia. The prime minister also opened the door to a constitutional review, saying to the president of the Generalitat(regional government), Artur Mas, that "whoever is not happy" can always start this process.

So, bullshit as usual or a fear that the independence could/might actually happen?

DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#59: Apr 9th 2014 at 12:30:06 PM

[up]

According to the polls, the parliament has a good reason to be worried that Catalan will vote for independence.

From a purely pragmatic view, this was a good choice.

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
Quag15 Since: Mar, 2012
#60: Apr 9th 2014 at 1:47:01 PM

Interesting how most Catalans seem to prefer the federal state or the autonomous community status to the independent state thing.

Problem is, pragmatism of that kind may not work if the economic problems persist. Which is why the Catalans are pissed off at the central government. If the economy gets worse, more people will adhere to the independent state thing.

edited 9th Apr '14 1:47:46 PM by Quag15

Qeise Professional Smartass from sqrt(-inf)/0 Since: Jan, 2011 Relationship Status: Waiting for you *wink*
Professional Smartass
#61: Apr 9th 2014 at 4:52:14 PM

[up][up]Even if they would vote for independence, is it more pragmatic to have a friendly neighbour or a hostile separatist region?

Laws are made to be broken. You're next, thermodynamics.
DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#62: Apr 9th 2014 at 7:41:41 PM

[up]

Most of the support for Catalan's independence will disappear once Spain's economy rebounds and its unemployment rate goes down.

The Spanish Government just needs to pad for time until support dies down.

edited 9th Apr '14 7:59:47 PM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
XanderVJ (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#63: May 8th 2014 at 4:09:45 AM

I'm from Madrid and I have tons of friends from Catalonia. So as you can imagine, this is extremely painful for me to watch (I'm currently living in the UK, but I'm following the news, and I keep myself in touch with my family and friends).

This is just politicians on both sides trying to cover their mess while playing with the feelings of people.

Artur Mas has been a plain awful governor and brought Catalonia to default, so he played the independence angle to distract people from that fact and maintain himself in power. And on their part, the central government in Madrid behave like patronizing assholes about the whole thing. But here's the thing: the current central government is being like that for ALL OF SPAIN. It's the most incompetent government since democracy was reestablished in 1978, which is saying something! They're using the Catalonia issue just to distract people from the fact that the whole country is in its worst shape since Franco's dictatorship, if not even before that! (Which is not working, by the way).

However, on the Catalonian side, what pisses me off the most is that the politicians are trying to sell to the Catalonian people that independence will automatically fix ALL of their problems and everything will be unicorns and rainbows.

That if they get the independence, they will automatically get back into the EU just because. That relationships with Spain will, not only not deteriorate, but be even better than before. Hell, they even said that the F.C. Barcelona and other Catalonian football/soccer teams will keep playing in the Spanish Liga as if nothing happened!

Not to mention that the Catalonian establishment is just as corrupt as the average Spaniard region (for those unfamiliar, that's A LOT), which makes the idea that "Catalonia will be the Germany of Southern Europe", as some Catalonian politicians have claimed, be absolutely ludicrous.

If Catalonia eventually get the independence... Well, I'm not gonna lie, that would suck. I don't like the prospect of having to use my passport if I want to visit my friends, or having to apply for a visa if I want to work in Barcelona (another aspect that Artur Mas is not mentioning, by the way). But damn it! If they do, they should be ready to face the consequences! That being an independent country means they will have to start over from scratch, specially considering we live now in a globalized world, where national boundaries make less sense by the year! Not that they will keep living as nothing happened, except that now things will be great because they are that awesome and everyone loves them! That's just insulting, for both sides (For the rest of Spain, because it implies they are beneath them. And for Catalonians, because they insult their intelligence, taking them for a gullible bunch of sheep).

Now, to be fair, one of the faults of Spanish people (not only the politicians this time) is that they are waiting for a Deus ex Machina that will solve all their problems: First it was the change of government in 2011. Then it was the hope that Angela Merkel wouldn't be reelected and a new German government would allow the European Central Bank to help them. For some people is the hope that the last cases of corruption will make the Monarchy to be abolished and a Republic established. And now it's this for Catalonia. For the rest of Spain is the hope that a new government will be elected next year.

The victims of all this? The people. Both in Catalonia and the rest of Spain.

It's just creating a needless hatred in both sides that didn't exist before (outside of far-right people). Catalonia is seeing the rest of Spain as an entity that is repressing them (except that ALL of Spain is being repressed), and the rest of Spain is seeing Catalonia as jerks who just want to bail because the economy is going south and they don't want to stay and help. When the reality is that this is all the old game of politicians trying to stay in power.

So fuck the Spanish establishment!

edited 8th May '14 5:05:30 AM by XanderVJ

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#64: May 8th 2014 at 12:35:58 PM

[up] As you know, that sounds almost exactly like the Scottish Independence Debate...

Keep Rolling On
Quag15 Since: Mar, 2012
#65: May 8th 2014 at 12:38:34 PM

Since Scotland is better off than Catalonia, it's probably best for Catalonia to not get independent, but more autonomous instead.

[up][up]How bad was Artur Mas (besides the default thing, which sucks a whole lot)?

edited 8th May '14 12:39:19 PM by Quag15

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#66: May 8th 2014 at 9:51:26 PM

[up][up]This so very much.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#68: Sep 29th 2014 at 4:37:36 AM

It is illegal, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't have it.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
LogoP Party Crasher from the Land of Deep Blue Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Party Crasher
#69: Sep 29th 2014 at 4:43:28 AM

Wait, you're from Catalonia?

It is sometimes an appropriate response to reality to go insane.
Quag15 Since: Mar, 2012
#70: Sep 29th 2014 at 4:50:18 AM

[up]He's not Catalan. He can't tell where he's from.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#71: Sep 29th 2014 at 4:58:55 AM

I've lived in Barcelona for eight years. Maybe my usage of the pronoun 'we' is unwarranted.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Quag15 Since: Mar, 2012
#72: Sep 29th 2014 at 5:07:24 AM

Well, since you have experience (and felt a certain connection), if I may ask: do people really want independence or do they want a bigger autonomy?

edited 29th Sep '14 5:08:03 AM by Quag15

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#73: Sep 29th 2014 at 5:45:12 AM

I think you already know the answer: "It depends on who you ask. For more details, check the polls." The vague general vibe that I'm getting is that they're sick of being dicked around by Madrid. They want the usual thing: their respect, their money, and their bitches.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
#74: Sep 29th 2014 at 6:15:31 AM

Whingers. Franco would sort them out. tongue

edited 29th Sep '14 6:15:47 AM by Achaemenid

Schild und Schwert der Partei
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#75: Sep 29th 2014 at 6:51:17 AM

[up] Funnily enough, Franco was from one of the potential-breakaway parts of Spain: Galicia.

Keep Rolling On

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