TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Catalan Independence

Go To

breadloaf Since: Oct, 2010
#26: Oct 24th 2012 at 9:38:23 PM

@ Joesolo

It's not really that loose at all unless you want to discount all of Europe as never having been nations. Royal marriages were what held nations together through feudalism. I mean, it's not like the concept of a full "nation-state" existed until recently but it's not like you'd say something like "Corsica was never part of France until the 4th Republic!". That's just a bit silly.

Catalan independence depends on economic winds the same way any other independence movement happens. There's a deep set separatist movement beforehand due to how the province was integrated into the state. Then over time, they're not really able to separate due to the strong central authority but every time the economy tanks, the central authority is weakened and if the province itself is doing okay (relatively speaking) or even if it is not, they like to think "we could have run better on our own".

Whether they can or not takes up like 99% of the discussion.

TheBatPencil from Glasgow, Scotland Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#27: Nov 26th 2012 at 6:14:32 AM

Pro-independence parties won 87 out of 135 seats in the Catalan elections. However, Artur Mas' centre-right CiU party is down to 50 seats from 62, whilethe pro-independence, left-wing ERC has 21 (an increase of 11). This is partly seen as a response to Mas' austerity measures, with the CiU and ERC having two very different policies for dealing with the economic crisis.

edited 26th Nov '12 6:16:23 AM by TheBatPencil

And let us pray that come it may (As come it will for a' that)
Edje Since: Sep, 2012
#28: Nov 26th 2012 at 12:29:09 PM

Vassalage is rather vague, and can mean rather different things in a European context than a non-European one. Vassalage as a political system was thoroughly outdated in Europe by the 18th century, centralized states, much of the modern state concept emerged from the Peace of Westphalia in 1648. Catalonia's position largely owes itself to this centralizing process, it ceased to have its independent institutions with a personal union with the King of Castile. The case of Tibet is somewhat odd, in large part because the Qing state didn't really fit exactly into the definitions used today or in contemporary Europe. Essentially, there was a relationship between the Dalai Lama and the Qing government such that both claimed sovereignty, there was considerable local autonomy, but also influential Qing representatives, and the Qing army was called upon to help when Tibet was invaded. There was a sort of gentleman's agreement, for example, where the Dalai Lama would be selected by the Tibetans through traditional means and then the Qing emperor would confirm the selection after the fact. Of course, the level of Qing control varied, when they had an army campaigning in Tibet, they usually got their way.

One serious issue with Catalonian independence is that the current Spanish constitution quite explicitly forbids secession, in order to legally leave, it would need to be changed, which would require broad support throughout Spain, to amend that section require a two thirds majority of the Cortes, a new election, a two thirds majority of the new Cortes and a referendum. Illegal secession is likely to be messy, and I would not recommend it.

Colonial1.1 Purveyor of Obscurity from The Marvelous River City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Purveyor of Obscurity
#29: Nov 26th 2012 at 9:32:31 PM

Legally messy, or armed conflict messy?

"He could not know it. For it was not all a joke."
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#30: Nov 26th 2012 at 10:30:21 PM

They could get independence without seceding. All that has to happen is that Catalan forms a government, then the Spanish government hands over the land to the new Catalanese government. Of course, that would require the cooperation of the Spanish government to work, but it would get around the rules against secession.

Edje Since: Sep, 2012
#31: Nov 26th 2012 at 10:41:55 PM

That depends a lot on the various individual decisions of a large number of people and on a bunch of factors that I don't know enough about, like what's the geographic distribution of separatist support? If there are pockets of loyalists, they could try to counter-secede. There's clearly a significant chunk of the population that is pro-union, at least enough to get 48 seats, and considering the economic crisis I suspect that over counts the pro-independence vote by quite a bit.

breadloaf Since: Oct, 2010
#32: Nov 29th 2012 at 6:27:27 PM

That feels like it's not going to happen and I don't really see armed succession happening either. It's more likely there's going to be a low level give or take between the Catalan government and the main one, funding differences and so on.

JoseB from NL Since: Jan, 2001
#33: Dec 12th 2013 at 6:55:10 AM

Well, just now it has been announced — The Catalan government has said that they will hold up a referendum on November 9, 2014 to ask about whether the population wants Catalonia to become an independent country. The question will have two parts:

"(1) Do you want Catalonia to become a state?" "(2) If so, do you want that state to be independent?"

There it goes. The Spanish government says that the referendum does not have legal validity and apparently they say that they do not intend to recognize it.

Oh well, it will be interesting to watch.

(Disclaimer: I am Spanish, I am not Catalan -although I have lived for quite a few years in Barcelona-, I have always thought that the best option for Spain would have been to become a proper federal country many years ago, and although the idea of Catalonia seceding pains me, I am ready to accept it if it truly is the people's will there to do so. I am in favour of having allowed that referendum years ago; it would have left things clear, one way or another).

GLUUUURK!
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#34: Dec 12th 2013 at 6:58:28 AM

[up] Interesting date — less than two months after the date of the Scottish Referendum.

Keep Rolling On
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#35: Dec 12th 2013 at 7:15:09 AM

Well, if the Madrid big boys hadn't been such pricks for so long...

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
SilasW A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#36: Dec 12th 2013 at 7:23:23 AM

The Spanish goverment is apparently planning to block the refurendum, according to the BBC.

"The poll will not be held," Justice Minister Alberto Ruiz-Gallardon told journalists

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#37: Dec 12th 2013 at 7:26:21 AM

See? Dick move! That's how you antagonize people and make them want to leave.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
TheBatPencil from Glasgow, Scotland Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#38: Dec 12th 2013 at 7:45:13 AM

Some things never change, eh?

Madrid are being outrageously stupid here. Support for independence will have a large, long-lasting majority after this type of move.

edited 12th Dec '13 7:49:26 AM by TheBatPencil

And let us pray that come it may (As come it will for a' that)
JoseB from NL Since: Jan, 2001
#39: Dec 12th 2013 at 8:32:12 AM

[up] The Madrid government has been very stupid for quite a while already.

This whole situation is like a train crash — you don't want to look but you can't help doing so.

And the saddest aspect of it all is that all this could have been avoided.

Hell, I am even sure that if, when the idea of a referendum was being bandied about, the Madrid government had said "Oh, OK, have it your way, by all means hold that referendum"... Then the support for independence would have been diminished.

Quite a few people (at least among the people I know) have become secessionist quite recently, out of despair of having the Madrid government behave in a rational manner, or out of pure tiredness of it all.

A very good friend of mine told me: "Basically, in Catalonia quite a lot of us were OK with being part of a common project with Spain... But lately it appears that Spain is not what you might term a 'serious' country, and many people have just given up on being able to play any kind of meaningful role within Spain".

Agh. This sucks major balls, I have to say >.<

GLUUUURK!
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#40: Dec 12th 2013 at 8:45:21 AM

I still think the Cats are due to a rude awakening when they find out that, on their own, they aren't that much more serious than the rest of the Peninsula.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
CaissasDeathAngel House Lewis: Sanity is Relative from Dumfries, SW Scotland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
House Lewis: Sanity is Relative
#41: Dec 12th 2013 at 10:51:05 AM

Typical Spanish opression. Considering that they are willing to violate international law in order to suppress self-determination that disagrees with what they want, something like this is only to be expected. The referendum should be held and its decision respected one way or the other.

My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#42: Dec 12th 2013 at 10:58:31 AM

Dude, since when did any large country not Screw The International Laws, I've Got Sovereignty?

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#43: Dec 12th 2013 at 11:07:00 AM

Canada and the UK have (or are about to) abide by similar referendums regarding Quebec/Scotland. Though in Canada's case the vote went Ottawa's way so there's no way to be totally sure while London seems content to abide by the decision of the Scottish public if/when that vote comes up.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#44: Dec 12th 2013 at 11:07:55 AM

Well, what's motivating them?

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
CaissasDeathAngel House Lewis: Sanity is Relative from Dumfries, SW Scotland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
House Lewis: Sanity is Relative
#45: Dec 12th 2013 at 11:17:56 AM

The fact that we realise that petty territorial disputes are meaningless in the face of our standing on the world stage. Scotland's referendum is next year, and Spain have been massively opposed to it precisely because of their own nationalists (there is of course a separate thread for the Scottish issue). Britain has nothing to gain territorially from the Falklands and little from Gibraltar (which does provide us with a handy native base in the Med but we don't strictly need it). But the people overwhelmingly want to be British so we're happy to let them.

Spain needs to be doing the same, and isn't.

My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#46: Dec 12th 2013 at 12:09:43 PM

Technically, they're going to be British regardless of whether they're in the UK or not.

edited 12th Dec '13 12:09:54 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
CaissasDeathAngel House Lewis: Sanity is Relative from Dumfries, SW Scotland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
House Lewis: Sanity is Relative
#47: Dec 12th 2013 at 12:21:58 PM

Being Scottish I'm plenty aware of that trope, but what I mean is, they want to be ruled under British law, which they won't if Spain gets their way. It's the same self determination right that Spain is also denying the Catalans.

My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.
Quag15 Since: Mar, 2012
#48: Dec 12th 2013 at 3:58:21 PM

I don't want to go too much off-topic, but I wonder if, in case the Catalans become independent, I wonder what will be the effect in the Basque region and in Galicia/Galiza.

That being said, if the central government doesn't let the referendum be held, there will, at the very least, massive protests in Barcelona (as well as other places throughout Spain).

tricksterson Never Trust from Behind you with an icepick Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Never Trust
#49: Dec 12th 2013 at 4:04:34 PM

[up]I'm thinking fear of encouraging the Basques and Galicians is a big part of why the government in Madrid is against the referendum.

edited 12th Dec '13 4:04:57 PM by tricksterson

Trump delenda est
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#50: Dec 12th 2013 at 4:20:11 PM

The Basque are being treated really well by the current paradigm, and the Galicians, in spite of having a more distinct, deeper-rooted culture than the Catalan, are a lot more Spain-ists. Franco was Gallician, so was Fraga.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

Total posts: 126
Top