Pro-independence parties won 87 out of 135 seats in the Catalan elections. However, Artur Mas' centre-right CiU party is down to 50 seats from 62, whilethe pro-independence, left-wing ERC has 21 (an increase of 11). This is partly seen as a response to Mas' austerity measures, with the CiU and ERC having two very different policies for dealing with the economic crisis.
edited 26th Nov '12 6:16:23 AM by TheBatPencil
And let us pray that come it may (As come it will for a' that)Vassalage is rather vague, and can mean rather different things in a European context than a non-European one. Vassalage as a political system was thoroughly outdated in Europe by the 18th century, centralized states, much of the modern state concept emerged from the Peace of Westphalia in 1648. Catalonia's position largely owes itself to this centralizing process, it ceased to have its independent institutions with a personal union with the King of Castile. The case of Tibet is somewhat odd, in large part because the Qing state didn't really fit exactly into the definitions used today or in contemporary Europe. Essentially, there was a relationship between the Dalai Lama and the Qing government such that both claimed sovereignty, there was considerable local autonomy, but also influential Qing representatives, and the Qing army was called upon to help when Tibet was invaded. There was a sort of gentleman's agreement, for example, where the Dalai Lama would be selected by the Tibetans through traditional means and then the Qing emperor would confirm the selection after the fact. Of course, the level of Qing control varied, when they had an army campaigning in Tibet, they usually got their way.
One serious issue with Catalonian independence is that the current Spanish constitution quite explicitly forbids secession, in order to legally leave, it would need to be changed, which would require broad support throughout Spain, to amend that section require a two thirds majority of the Cortes, a new election, a two thirds majority of the new Cortes and a referendum. Illegal secession is likely to be messy, and I would not recommend it.
They could get independence without seceding. All that has to happen is that Catalan forms a government, then the Spanish government hands over the land to the new Catalanese government. Of course, that would require the cooperation of the Spanish government to work, but it would get around the rules against secession.
That depends a lot on the various individual decisions of a large number of people and on a bunch of factors that I don't know enough about, like what's the geographic distribution of separatist support? If there are pockets of loyalists, they could try to counter-secede. There's clearly a significant chunk of the population that is pro-union, at least enough to get 48 seats, and considering the economic crisis I suspect that over counts the pro-independence vote by quite a bit.
Well, just now it has been announced — The Catalan government has said that they will hold up a referendum on November 9, 2014 to ask about whether the population wants Catalonia to become an independent country. The question will have two parts:
"(1) Do you want Catalonia to become a state?" "(2) If so, do you want that state to be independent?"
There it goes. The Spanish government says that the referendum does not have legal validity and apparently they say that they do not intend to recognize it.
Oh well, it will be interesting to watch.
(Disclaimer: I am Spanish, I am not Catalan -although I have lived for quite a few years in Barcelona-, I have always thought that the best option for Spain would have been to become a proper federal country many years ago, and although the idea of Catalonia seceding pains me, I am ready to accept it if it truly is the people's will there to do so. I am in favour of having allowed that referendum years ago; it would have left things clear, one way or another).
GLUUUURK!The Spanish goverment is apparently planning to block the refurendum, according to the BBC.
The Madrid government has been very stupid for quite a while already.
This whole situation is like a train crash — you don't want to look but you can't help doing so.
And the saddest aspect of it all is that all this could have been avoided.
Hell, I am even sure that if, when the idea of a referendum was being bandied about, the Madrid government had said "Oh, OK, have it your way, by all means hold that referendum"... Then the support for independence would have been diminished.
Quite a few people (at least among the people I know) have become secessionist quite recently, out of despair of having the Madrid government behave in a rational manner, or out of pure tiredness of it all.
A very good friend of mine told me: "Basically, in Catalonia quite a lot of us were OK with being part of a common project with Spain... But lately it appears that Spain is not what you might term a 'serious' country, and many people have just given up on being able to play any kind of meaningful role within Spain".
Agh. This sucks major balls, I have to say >.<
GLUUUURK!Typical Spanish opression. Considering that they are willing to violate international law in order to suppress self-determination that disagrees with what they want, something like this is only to be expected. The referendum should be held and its decision respected one way or the other.
My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.Canada and the UK have (or are about to) abide by similar referendums regarding Quebec/Scotland. Though in Canada's case the vote went Ottawa's way so there's no way to be totally sure while London seems content to abide by the decision of the Scottish public if/when that vote comes up.
Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.The fact that we realise that petty territorial disputes are meaningless in the face of our standing on the world stage. Scotland's referendum is next year, and Spain have been massively opposed to it precisely because of their own nationalists (there is of course a separate thread for the Scottish issue). Britain has nothing to gain territorially from the Falklands and little from Gibraltar (which does provide us with a handy native base in the Med but we don't strictly need it). But the people overwhelmingly want to be British so we're happy to let them.
Spain needs to be doing the same, and isn't.
My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.Technically, they're going to be British regardless of whether they're in the UK or not.
edited 12th Dec '13 12:09:54 PM by TheHandle
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.I don't want to go too much off-topic, but I wonder if, in case the Catalans become independent, I wonder what will be the effect in the Basque region and in Galicia/Galiza.
That being said, if the central government doesn't let the referendum be held, there will, at the very least, massive protests in Barcelona (as well as other places throughout Spain).
The Basque are being treated really well by the current paradigm, and the Galicians, in spite of having a more distinct, deeper-rooted culture than the Catalan, are a lot more Spain-ists. Franco was Gallician, so was Fraga.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

@ Joesolo
It's not really that loose at all unless you want to discount all of Europe as never having been nations. Royal marriages were what held nations together through feudalism. I mean, it's not like the concept of a full "nation-state" existed until recently but it's not like you'd say something like "Corsica was never part of France until the 4th Republic!". That's just a bit silly.
Catalan independence depends on economic winds the same way any other independence movement happens. There's a deep set separatist movement beforehand due to how the province was integrated into the state. Then over time, they're not really able to separate due to the strong central authority but every time the economy tanks, the central authority is weakened and if the province itself is doing okay (relatively speaking) or even if it is not, they like to think "we could have run better on our own".
Whether they can or not takes up like 99% of the discussion.