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Unclear Description: During The War

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Deadlock Clock: Dec 4th 2012 at 11:59:00 PM
nrjxll Relationship Status: Not war
Oct 8th 2012 at 1:36:18 AM

While I think it's pretty clear what this is supposed to be, the description is a completely incoherent mess. It reads as if the introductory paragraph(s) was completely deleted for some reason, inexplicably switches between second- and third-person writing, and devotes an entire paragraph to "noting" examples. I think I can honestly say that this is one of the worst descriptions I've seen in a long time.

In addition, the unorthodox example sorting seems pretty pointless and, especially in the case of the "Fictional Wars" section, pretty confusing as well. And the quotes - both on the main and quotes page - seem to have nothing in common except having to do with war.

pittsburghmuggle Pittsburghmuggle from Pittsburgh, PA USA
Pittsburghmuggle
Oct 14th 2012 at 12:33:12 AM

I agree. The description made me scratch my head. I came by due to characters saying "back in the war" when the war is ambiguous. I'm frankly not sure if this trope applies to that or any work set during a war.

I went to check Laconic, but that isn't filled in.

edited 14th Oct '12 12:33:46 AM by pittsburghmuggle

"Freedom is not a license for chaos" -Norton Juster's The Dot and the Line: A Romance in Lower Mathematics
RJSavoy Reymmă from Edinburgh Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Reymmă
Oct 14th 2012 at 12:56:47 PM

This description isn't just bad; it's the apotheosis of all the worst descriptions I've ever seen on this wiki. Needs work immediately, but I wish someone would preserve it as a memorial to the TRS's deeds, and the brave souls who risked their sanity reading such things.

I'm not wondering how to rewrite it, I'm wondering what the trope is. Is it just about works set during wars?

A blog that gets updated on a geological timescale.
nrjxll Relationship Status: Not war
Oct 14th 2012 at 1:44:24 PM

That's what I think.

Xtifr World's Toughest Milkman Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
World's Toughest Milkman
Oct 15th 2012 at 4:06:48 PM

Ouch! Reading this caused me to facepalm so hard I nearly drew blood! :)

My guess is that someone wanted to shovel Military Fiction into a great big bucket with stories where a war is simply a (possibly distant) part of the background. Now, I'm no splitter, but that seems like at least two very different tropes to me.

Of course, I can only guess at the intentions, since the trope is never stated.

eta: Gah, we have an index of Military Science Fiction, but no index of Military Fiction?

eta x2: never mind; we have Military and Warfare Films, Military and Warfare Literature, etc.

edited 15th Oct '12 4:11:16 PM by Xtifr

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.
DoktorvonEurotrash Welcome, traveller, welcome to Omsk
Welcome, traveller, welcome to Omsk
Oct 16th 2012 at 1:26:18 AM

[up]I'm with you. I can't figure out what the hell this trope is supposed to be. I wouldn't lose any sleep if it got cut or sent back to YKTTW.

It does not matter who I am. What matters is, who will you become? - motto of Omsk Bird
lu127 Paper Master from 異界 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
Dec 1st 2012 at 3:48:24 AM

Clocking, let's fix this awful thing.

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SeptimusHeap from Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Dec 1st 2012 at 1:01:17 PM

Would

Stories set during a war. War Is Hell is kinda an assumption here.
be an acceptable replacement for the first three or four paragraphs?

edited 1st Dec '12 1:01:28 PM by SeptimusHeap

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
nrjxll Relationship Status: Not war
Dec 1st 2012 at 3:14:09 PM

I'm going to say that the best thing to do here is probably send it back to YMMV. I just don't see how it can be fixed as it is.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Dec 1st 2012 at 3:15:33 PM

YKTTW, you mean. I for one think it's supposed to be for works that are set during a war. At least, that is what the description says to me.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
nrjxll Relationship Status: Not war
Dec 1st 2012 at 3:17:46 PM

So do I, but I think it might be easier to cut it and start over then to try and rework what little there is now into an actual trope.

(Whoops.)

Madrugada Zzzzzzzzzz Relationship Status: In season
Zzzzzzzzzz
Dec 1st 2012 at 3:29:24 PM

That's what it looks like to me, as well, especially after reading the whole preserved edit history, and looking at the reasons given for additions and deletions.

It's simply an index of works "set during a war", and from that POV, the sorting pattern, while not typical, makes sense — alphabetical by (war in chronological order). I don't see any reason to change that.

I'm not sure what there is to YKTTW.

Incidentally, the page has been around since 2010.

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.
nrjxll Relationship Status: Not war
Dec 1st 2012 at 4:07:17 PM

[up]The description is an incoherent mess, and if it's just supposed to be an index, then it's not even necessary. As for the example sorting, the problem comes in with the highly arbitrary "Fictional Wars" section.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Dec 1st 2012 at 4:12:06 PM

YKTTW is really not a good place for description fixing, I'm afraid. There is a Special Efforts thread that could address description issues.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
NativeJovian from Orlando, FL
Dec 1st 2012 at 4:52:59 PM

The page at the moment looks mostly like an index of "works set during wars" — but note that it's not actually an index (the pagetype is "trope", without indexing turned on). And what I've mostly seen it used around the wiki is as a setting (which is, in fact, what During the War is indexed as). I'd also question the need for an index of "stuff during wars" in the first place.

I'd say revamp it as a setting trope, with two variants: works that take place during a war, or backstory elements that took place during a war. eg, "This work takes place on the front lines of WWII" or "This character lost their legs During the War, twenty years before the work is set".

edited 1st Dec '12 4:53:32 PM by NativeJovian

Vos iustus a diversis genus delirus.
Xtifr World's Toughest Milkman Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
World's Toughest Milkman
Dec 1st 2012 at 5:42:07 PM

I agree with making it (or keeping it as, depending on how you look at it) a setting trope.

I think the examples should be sorted by medium, like any normal trope.

eta: I've been thinking for a while of taking an After The War ("antebellum") setting trope to YKTTW, and this would complement that nicely. As for the backstory thing, that seems more like a separate trope.

edited 1st Dec '12 5:45:43 PM by Xtifr

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.
Dec 2nd 2012 at 2:58:02 PM

[up]But, of course, "antebellum" means "before the war."

Xtifr World's Toughest Milkman Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
World's Toughest Milkman
Dec 4th 2012 at 12:17:39 AM

[up] Whoops, duh, yeah. What's the term that's commonly applied to works set just after the civil war?

eta: please PM if you know the answer; I don't want to derail this any farther.

eta x2: answered (and now I feel dumb). :)

edited 4th Dec '12 12:25:12 AM by Xtifr

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.
NativeJovian from Orlando, FL
Dec 4th 2012 at 10:16:31 AM

After The War seems like a good compliment to During the War; that would let During the War focus on... well, stuff that actually happens during a war. In other words, in my previous example, the character who lost their legs during a war twenty years ago would be After The War instead of During the War.

Vos iustus a diversis genus delirus.
Xtifr World's Toughest Milkman Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
World's Toughest Milkman
Dec 6th 2012 at 6:01:46 PM

I disagree that TRS isn't really for fixing descriptions; I've certainly seen descriptions fixed at TRS countless times. I've even written new descriptions at TRS at least half a dozen times. But I still think the bizarre organization/sorting is the worst part of this, and would strongly move to re-organize it like a normal trope. Should we have a crowner?

(It's been suggested that it's nearly impossible to resolve a TRS thread without a crowner, though I have occasionally seen it done.)

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Dec 7th 2012 at 12:09:39 AM

[up]We have a thread in Special Efforts for description fixing. I have misgivings about making threads in the limited space of TRS about things that have SE threads.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Noaqiyeum The it-thingy (it/they) from Narnia Standard Time (NST) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The it-thingy (it/they)
Feb 1st 2013 at 3:16:23 PM

So this should go to Special Projects and lock?

apathy’s a tragedy and boredom is a crime
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Feb 1st 2013 at 3:18:12 PM

The Trope Description Improvement Drive thread, you mean.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Noaqiyeum The it-thingy (it/they) from Narnia Standard Time (NST) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The it-thingy (it/they)
Feb 1st 2013 at 4:22:36 PM

Yes, that one.

apathy’s a tragedy and boredom is a crime
Feb 1st 2013 at 5:06:26 PM

I'll write up a description and post it here. Tell me if it sounds good.

Don't make me destroy you. @ Castle Series

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