Arrow. Green Arrow tv show.

Its a big deal because killing non-evil mooks just doing their job notably drops his hero-ness. The show tries to portray him as this changed man whose going to make a difference rather than wasting his life; IOW, it tries to portray him as a newborn hero. And then it has him ruthlessly and *unnecessarily* murder those who get in his way, even those who have done nothing wrong. At best, he's operating on the same moral level as the Punisher ( and that is assuming all the mooks actually were evil-for-hire, and that the writer just forgot to tell us ), which is a significant dissonance from the seemingly intended portrayal. At worst, he's a villain protagonist, only the writers don't realize it.

Sure, you can have a show be about a total monster and have it work. Just look at Dexter, or the Sopranos. However, if you aren't aiming for such, and yet the viewers have to ask themselves why they are supposed to be rooting for the erratic murderer? You have a concept problem, or a writing problem, or both.

How come we never have any of these problems when it's Rambo killing bad guys?

Three reasons ( at least ):

1. Rambo kills enemy soldiers engaged in war, that are ( to the best of my knowledge ) always shown actively being horrible people. So they aren't just soldiers being killed, but war criminals

2. Rambo isn't usually portrayed as a righteous hero; he's at least a mild anti-hero who is not all together happy with the whole "killing tons of people" thing

3. Rambo isn't a vigilante deliberately breaking the law in the name of his own personal sense of what is right

The only movie where Rambo kills people who /aren't/ the most brutal type of war criminals is movie #1, where his victims are 'only' corrupt and brutal policemen — and that movie doesn't cast Rambo in a heroic light, but as a mentally disturbed individual who needs to be locked up and given therapy. Movies #2-4 are war movies taking places in war zones, vs. enemy soldiers who are out there racking up war crimes like the Gestapo in a World War II movie.

edited 18th Oct '12 8:27:08 PM by cliffc999

Its also so divergent from all the other movies that I don't think it should really count. Practically all it has in common with the rest is the name and the main character.

Rambo actually only killed one person in First Blood.

Ollie killing badges doesn't really bug me all that much. I just find it amusingly inconsistent that he goes out of his way to chase down and kill one guy, and then later there's a note that these other shmoes were only put in a hospital.

My real problem with Ollie is that he isn't a very compelling character the way he's presented here. He's extraordinarily bland and seems to just be running down a checklist:

• Make right with ex-girlfriend who I cheated on with her sister before said sister died horribly. Check.
• Listen to pop culture trivia from comic relief friend. Check.
• Find old factory for secret lair. Check.

Dude, get a hobby or something. Or some different facial expressions.

edited 18th Oct '12 9:56:21 PM by Pannic

Why does Ollie have to be a superhero in order to save Star City couldn't he do a lot of good as a honest and caring wealthy philanthropist?

So what would make a guy dress in a green hood and going around shooting businessmen with arrows?

I think we see a hint of that at the end of the second episode. I have no problem with Green Arrow as an anti-hero. I would say he comes across as somewhere between Type III and IV.

I don't mind him being an anti-hero, either, but I strongly suspect the writers don't realize that is what they are doing.

Watched the second episode. No, totally, that confession that was taken under the threat of death by a vigilante being hunted by the police would totally be admissible in court.

There isn't single likable character on this show, offscreen villainy abounds, and our "hero" keeps shooting quite possibly innocent people in the chest with arrows. I'll be surprised if this show gets a second season without a major uptick in quality.

The fact that my parents are loving this show shames me to no end.

Things I really did not like: Using the black canary as a damsel in distress. - Really, if she is supposed to be lance, you just cannot do that, as she is well-nigh unbeatable in close quarters. In fact, the writers were generally not doing well by her this episode. The whole argument about the police detail was just bad, bad writing, as she damn well had to know that she was putting herself in mortal danger, and protesting the security detail was just.. not the way anyone would chose to assert their independence. I can imagine a good version of this argument, - a brief bit of snark about how the heck he justifies the hours when the prosecutor insists that she is suing an innocent businessman could have been both funny and serve to illustrate the corruption of the city, but that was not what we got.

Things I liked: Digg. And the pretty.

I don't think she's Black Canary yet. I think the mention of Queen Industries (or whatever they're calling it) being into bio-tech and other cutting edge scientific research will play a part in her getting her sonic power.

As for the confession it was mentioned on another board, and I agree that it was strongly hinted that the DA's office had evidence but was suppressing it and that Det. Lance would use the confession to pressure them into using it or he'd release the confession to the press. Course would be nice if they had put in a short scene making that clear.

I've decided I'll give the show until about episode 5 or 6 to get good before I drop it. Mostly because I really do think there's potential here, but the first two episodes have just squandered it.

Also, don't know much about Green Arrow or his rogues gallery— was that white-haired Triad assassin chick supposed to be anyone in particular, or was she an original creation for the show?

Her name was China White, she appeared in Green Arrow: Year One, a GA limited series in 2007, and hasn't appeared in the DCU since. In that story, she was the leader of a drug cartel and Ollie's first enemy.

One problem, though: That's NOT Black Canary.

edited 19th Oct '12 7:55:01 PM by maxwellelvis

Huh, is that all she was in? Because it so happens that that's the only GA comic I've ever read, and I'd assumed with a name like that she was recurring. Also begs the question - why not bill her as Chien Nah-Wei here?

Right now, she's NOT Black Canary, she's just a lawyer who used to fuck Ollie. A little backstory fleshing things out won't hurt anyone. And they'll allegedly have plenty of time to flesh things out; I can't find any links to back this up, but supposedly they've ordered 10 seasons of Arrow.

Two eps in, and I got no problems with another 10 seasons. The problem is going to be enemies; I found a Green Arrow rogues gallery and I am NOT optimistic. With the exception of Deathstroke, I think Aunt May could take these guys.

They're definitely going to be dipping into other heroes' rogues galleries, as well as using enemies of the DC universe at large. Deadshot, who's mostly a Batman villain, is appearing in the next episode, and Firefly is rumored to be appearing later in the season. Oh, and the Royal Flush Gang's going to show up as well.

The Canary has a sonic scream, yes. But she is also one of the best martial artists on the planet, on a planet that has batman, and arrow seems to want to avoid overt superpowers, so that is the aspect of her character they should emphasise. And that is not the kind of skillset you can fit into an origin in an ongoing show, unless you do a serious time skip. So if they want to go there eventually, she needs to have a row of trophies and medals stashed somewhere in her apartment right now. Certainly, she needs to have courage under fire.

I'm wondering if Ollie is going to have to kill or imprison Merlyn's father in this continuity, leading to them becoming enemies, though this still would explain a sudden proficiency with the Bow like the comics version has.

I don't think they're gonna do Black Canary; I think they're gonna go Nolanverse and make Green Arrow the only hero in the world.

x5 Chesire and Solomon Grundy are both tough and Prometheus nearly took out the entire Justice League in his first appearance.

Ignoring the usage of the word 'hero', they've already revealed that the Helena Bertinelli Huntress will appear. They *may* keep to their word as far as no super powers, but it seems Ollie won't be the world's only costumed crimefighter.

Neither Solomon Grundy nor Prometheus are even close to being Green Arrow rogues, though. Solomon Grundy is an everybody rogue who fights the JSA marginally more than anyone else, and Prometheus is a JLA rogue who hit on some hard times and bad writing.

( then again, Deathstroke isn't a Green Arrow rogue, either. . . )