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tricksterson Never Trust from Behind you with an icepick Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Never Trust
#226: Dec 4th 2012 at 7:19:33 AM

Diggle is ex-military, that would tend to promote a "friend or foe" mentality.

Trump delenda est
SomeSortOfTroper Since: Jan, 2001
#227: Dec 4th 2012 at 7:36:48 AM

Also, Diggle's a guy with a normal family background whose life has suffered due to the effects the rich have had on the city while Oliver is one of those rich guys. So the Royal Flush Gang leader is, to Diggle, someone like him, dealt the same sort of hand but who turned to crime thus Diggle doesn't evaluate him on the hand he was dealt but on his reaction to it. On the other hand Oliver feels socially and personally responsible for that dealt hand.

So that's something nice about Diggle's POV- he's not suffering from "Rich Man's Burden".

LizardBite Shameless Self-Promoter from Two Galaxies Over Since: Jan, 2001
#228: Dec 7th 2012 at 7:53:03 PM

So, regarding my previous post, when I said this:

Really, the only thing up in the air is whether the show will try to forget that he went through a murderous phase and hope the audience does too, or if it will force him into confronting the deaths he's caused. It could go either way, really.

Since the most recent episode had Ollie calling Helena out for endangering innocent lives, it looks like the show is going for the first option.

tricksterson Never Trust from Behind you with an icepick Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Never Trust
#229: Dec 8th 2012 at 2:26:42 PM

Considering he killed people in both parts of that episode I think what they're going to do is keep him a killer while pretending he's somehow different. After all, it's worked for them so far.

Trump delenda est
kalel94 Rascal King from Dragonstone Since: Feb, 2011
Rascal King
#230: Dec 8th 2012 at 2:31:09 PM

It's only worked in that we, the more analytical viewer, have recognized that he's all sorts of fucked up and not really in the right. The show, however, is trying to frame it so that he's a typical hero who is in the right compared to Helena, and failed. The sooner they recognize that he's completely nuts and run with that, the better the show will become.

The last hurrah? Nah, I'd do it again.
Prime_of_Perfection Where force fails, cunning prevails Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Where force fails, cunning prevails
#231: Dec 8th 2012 at 3:17:07 PM

He has his mental issues, blah blah blah, etc.

Anyway, I think I've rationalized why he kills mooks yet doesn't eliminate the actual person he's after. If, and this is me trying to get into his head, the mooks are in the way, they don't matter. He's removing obstacles in the most quickest & efficient means possible.

With the people however, if he gains reputation for killing them, they have no motivation to turn over money like he tells them. After all, if the guy who threatens for money then kills you anyway, future targets on list have less reason to do what he says to save their own lives. It's combination of showing willingness to go that far for his objective and realization that can't kill those targets or else others won't comply in future.

I've no interest in arguing whether it's right or wrong. Right and wrong in themselves are a joke to me. It really just comes down to what one's perspective of acceptable behavior is. All I'm attempting to do is objectively understand Ollie's mindset.

In other news, thus far, I'm really, really hating Thea. I'm sympathetic towards her situation and understand cause, but I still find her an insufferable brat.

edited 8th Dec '12 8:25:44 PM by Prime_of_Perfection

Improving as an author, one video at a time.
ShadowScythe from Australia Since: Dec, 2009
#232: Dec 8th 2012 at 11:04:49 PM

Was the show really framing him in the right during that Huntress conversation?

He tries to call her out on her vigilantism, she rightly doesn't take his shit and then they both realise they're not so different, break down and start making out.

It didn't seem like the show was saying he was better than Huntress or that his methods were 'pure'.

In any case I hope he moves on past his killing phase and we get less sociopath parallels.

The crazy angle works with someone as obsessed as Batman but Green Arrow is a much more socially conscious and mentally healthy person.

Besides, we've already seen the obsessed, sociopathic superhero angle with Nolan's movies.

Prime_of_Perfection Where force fails, cunning prevails Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Where force fails, cunning prevails
#233: Dec 9th 2012 at 6:38:07 AM

I really don't get why you all are calling him a sociopath really. He clearly does possess empathy and other feelings. It's just not to the people you want, the mooks.

Also, I'm not as bothered as this thread made it out to be really. He feels more like an anti-hero than anything else and it seems like people want him to be The Cape instead. Well that and I never get feeling series is trying to say he is The Cape, least not so far from episodes watched. He's clearly got issues and show is not perfect, but I braced myself for this completely unlikable, grim dark protagonist who show keeps playing as The Cape early on and I haven't gotten that vibe yet.

edited 9th Dec '12 6:42:00 AM by Prime_of_Perfection

Improving as an author, one video at a time.
tricksterson Never Trust from Behind you with an icepick Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Never Trust
#234: Dec 9th 2012 at 6:54:55 AM

Oh, I have no problem with his killing mooks. What I want is for him to stop thinking that it's okay for him but not for others. He should just say to himself that yeah, it's wrong but it's what's necessary. In other words I want him to have Heel Realization and keep doing it anyway. But they won't do that.

Trump delenda est
metaphysician Since: Oct, 2010
#235: Dec 9th 2012 at 9:05:11 AM

As for me, I want the writers to pick a side and stick with it. If they want him to be a grim anti-hero who is erratically murderous, then fine, but stop dithering and implying that he's supposed to be a righteous champion for Starling City. Or just stop being inconsistent period, like having people only start thinking of him as a murderer the one time in an ep where his homicide is totally justifiable.

Home of CBR Rumbles-in-Exile: rumbles.fr.yuku.com
Prime_of_Perfection Where force fails, cunning prevails Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Where force fails, cunning prevails
#236: Dec 9th 2012 at 10:37:45 AM

So you want it to be black and white?

Improving as an author, one video at a time.
jedimaster91 Since: Sep, 2010
#237: Dec 9th 2012 at 1:01:56 PM

I think we can all agree that Ollie is the last person who should be calling out Helena, but she is clearly more affected by her rampage than Ollie is by his. Ollie's training does give him a certain amount of control (as long as no one's trying to kill Laurel), and Helena lacks that control. Let's not forget that Moira almost got caught in the crossfire, which even Helena admits she didn't mean to do.

Not saying either's wrong or right, but that's what I think they were trying to show. Sure, Ollie's killed people, but the danger with Helena is that she's untrained, unpredictable, and doesn't have the control he does. So far he's managed to not shoot innocent civilians (just mooks), which is more than can be said for Helena.

tricksterson Never Trust from Behind you with an icepick Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Never Trust
#238: Dec 9th 2012 at 1:04:14 PM

[up][up]More like black and grey, which it already is, they just wont admit it.

Trump delenda est
Prime_of_Perfection Where force fails, cunning prevails Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Where force fails, cunning prevails
#239: Dec 9th 2012 at 1:15:03 PM

Hmm, interesting. Guess just different impression of things, but it's been pretty grey IMO.

Good example of it being clear grey to me was episode 4. Dinah started questioning things and saw what good he was going though she also realized he's a remorseless murderer later on. She had her own perspective on things then became disillusioned by his actions. It still doesn't erase what positive outcome his actions have had. It just doesn't dance around the negative side either.

Maybe it's just me, but he's never felt like he was painted as being a white cape. It's just that some scenes paint the positive side of his actions while others acknowledge the darker side. Not every scene which reflects the whole morality thing needs to do both of them at the exact same time. Hell, some of it clearly has been acknowledged as things gone on in just more subtle ways. Such as Diggle joining in, realizing there is good done through his actions while at same time wanting to lessen casualties and save Ollie from himself.

In any case, I'm firmly in the camp that he's not the perfect hero as of yet and I don't feel like the series has made him out to be. All it's done is present him as he is, for better or worse. That and he's progressively evolving into a more "acceptable" hero.

To note, I've yet to watch The Huntress episodes, it's still on backlog. I can't judge any of happenings in it yet, sadly.

edited 9th Dec '12 1:20:35 PM by Prime_of_Perfection

Improving as an author, one video at a time.
kalel94 Rascal King from Dragonstone Since: Feb, 2011
Rascal King
#240: Dec 9th 2012 at 2:05:42 PM

Diggle, Dinah, Deadshot, and Huntress have all sort of called him out on killing people, and that's all well and good, but as of yet, they haven't followed up on that by having Oliver himself give his view on things. He's just kind of denied it. I think that's where the show's shortcomings are.

The last hurrah? Nah, I'd do it again.
Prime_of_Perfection Where force fails, cunning prevails Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Where force fails, cunning prevails
#241: Dec 9th 2012 at 2:12:33 PM

Lots of D's.

Anyway, I thought his whole answer about killing for the good of others summed it up. He's just not hung up on fact he kills mooks or spending time angsting over them because it's clear he's resolved at this point. His actions and lack of remorse have shown that it's just a part of the mission for him. Plus doesn't seem to be as important to him as it is to those who have focused on that single point about him.

Anyway, going to start Huntress debut episode so let's see where this goes...

Improving as an author, one video at a time.
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#242: Dec 10th 2012 at 12:07:14 PM

For those of you who have watched The Legend Of Korra, think of it; one of the mooks being a Bolin-equivalent. "It's just some security work, nothing to worry about." "Really?" "Yeaaaaah, plus, the cash is hefty!"

But it's actually for a shipment of horrible drugs.

And then The Vigilante shows up and arrows him in the chest. Killing him.

A kid with this face

edited 10th Dec '12 12:10:33 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Prime_of_Perfection Where force fails, cunning prevails Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Where force fails, cunning prevails
#243: Dec 10th 2012 at 12:58:01 PM

My response to that example is this excerpt from Clerks.

Randal: So they build another Death Star, right?

Dante: Yeah.

Randal: Now the first one they built was completed and fully operational before the Rebels destroyed it.

Dante: Luke blew it up. Give credit where it's due.

Randal:And the second one was still being built when they blew it up.

Dante: Compliments of Lando Calrissian.

Randal: Something just never sat right with me the second time they destroyed it. I could never put my finger on it-something just wasn't right.

Dante: And you figured it out?

Randal: Well, the thing is, the first Death Star was manned by the Imperial army-storm troopers, dignitaries- the only people onboard were Imperials.

Dante: Basically.

Randal: So when they blew it up, no prob. Evil is punished.

Dante: And the second time around...?

Randal: The second time around, it wasn't even finished yet. They were still under construction.

Dante: So?

Randal: A construction job of that magnitude would require a helluva lot more manpower than the Imperial army had to offer. I'll bet there were independent contractors working on that thing: plumbers, aluminum siders, roofers.

Dante: Not just Imperials, is what you're getting at.

Randal: Exactly. In order to get it built quickly and quietly they'd hire anybody who could do the job. Do you think the average storm trooper knows how to install a toilet main? All they know is killing and white uniforms.

Dante: All right, so even if independent contractors are working on the Death Star, why are you uneasy with its destruction?

Randal: All those innocent contractors hired to do a job were killed- casualties of a war they had nothing to do with. (notices Dante's confusion) All right, look-you're a roofer, and some juicy government contract comes your way; you got the wife and kids and the two-story in suburbia-this is a government contract, which means all sorts of benefits. All of a sudden these left-wing militants blast you with lasers and wipe out everyone within a three-mile radius. You didn't ask for that. You have no personal politics. You're just trying to scrape out a living.

(The Blue-Collar Man (Thomas Burke) joins them.)

Blue-Collar Man: Excuse me. I don't mean to interrupt, but what were you talking about?

Randal: The ending of Return of the Jedi.

Dante: My friend is trying to convince me that any contractors working on the uncompleted Death Star were innocent victims when the space station was destroyed by the rebels.

Blue-Collar Man: Well, I'm a contractor myself. I'm a roofer... (digs into pocket and produces business card) Dunn and Reddy Home Improvements. And speaking as a roofer, I can say that a roofer's personal politics come heavily into play when choosing jobs.

Randal: Like when?

Blue-Collar Man: Three months ago I was offered a job up in the hills. A beautiful house with tons of property. It was a simple reshingling job, but I was told that if it was finished within a day, my price would be doubled. Then I realized whose house it was.

Dante: Whose house was it?

Blue-Collar Man: Dominick Bambino's.

Randal: "Babyface" Bambino? The gangster?

Blue-Collar Man: The same. The money was right, but the risk was too big. I knew who he was, and based on that, I passed the job on to a friend of mine.

Dante: Based on personal politics.

Blue-Collar Man: Right. And that week, the Foresci family put a hit on Babyface's house. My friend was shot and killed. He wasn't even finished shingling.

Randal: No way!

Blue-Collar Man: (paying for coffee) I'm alive because I knew there were risks involved taking on that particular client. My friend wasn't so lucky. (pauses to reflect) You know, any contractor willing to work on that Death Star knew the risks. If they were killed, it was their own fault. A roofer listens to this... (taps his heart) not his wallet.

Now, I'm not saying it's so simple, but that above argument falls flat to me. If that happened to Bolin, or in case Amon de-bended him, partially own fault for getting into the situation in first place. I'm not saying all own fault, but he knew the risks. I've no care to debate if that's right or wrong. It just is. If they get killed in the outing, that sucks for them. If they don't, someone saves them, and they turn around their lives or whatever, that's good too and I prefer such outcomes tbh. It all depends on one's luck and how they play the cards dealt to them.

Anyway, just started Episode 8 as of now and so far do think Ollie is being a hypocrite. Particularly because of the whole "I don't kill as an opening move" when he HAS killed as an opening (and ending) move.

Should be interesting to see where this goes. Just wanted to post feelings of agreement now that I've had that experience. I think I'll pop some popcorn and see where this episode goes.

Alright, having watched episode, I do feel it really skates around the issue now too. I do think it was grey up until now, but this was episode that really threw it off for me. Mainly because Ollie's words and actions don't align perfectly.

Now, the control element I feel had some great merit. Really, if it wasn't for things like Ollie giving same justification for when he kills people that she does, it would have been strong enough one. Discipline is an important thing to take away in any endeavor, whether you're lawful or not.

Also, Diggle's immediate jumping to conclusions about Helena I wasn't a big fan of. Mainly because he never met her and has such a black and white morality going when he's a guy who is helping someone who operates in the gray in the first place. I would have loved for Ollie to call him on that just so I could see what his response was that made Ollie different from Helena.

I feel like there was some off-screen development or whatever with Ollie. Or maybe Diggle's influence on Ollie has expanded his vibe for "justice" or whatever. I swear I hate that word sometimes -.- In any case, no where near perfect and I'll agree on tackling some things.

Overall, I think it had merit and good elements, but other points held it back.

edited 10th Dec '12 3:31:54 PM by Prime_of_Perfection

Improving as an author, one video at a time.
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#244: Dec 10th 2012 at 3:23:08 PM

[up]Not a hypocrite. A liar. Anyway, as soon as she found out his secret, she was narratively dead meat, since she clearly wasn't set up to be a regular.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Prime_of_Perfection Where force fails, cunning prevails Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Where force fails, cunning prevails
#245: Dec 10th 2012 at 3:34:52 PM

A hypocrite is one who puts on a false appearance of virtue. Deception is a part of hypocrisy.

Improving as an author, one video at a time.
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#246: Dec 10th 2012 at 3:42:54 PM

Does it count, when one's insane?

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
CEOIII C-E-O-3, H-N-I-C from Franklin, PA Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: In my bunk
C-E-O-3, H-N-I-C
#247: Dec 12th 2012 at 9:52:32 AM

wild mass guessOllie's mom is on the list.wild mass guess

Follow me: A few eps ago, we got a flashback of Ollie, in the cave, burning pages from his dad's book to stay warm. He eventually saw the names after exposing one page to the heat properly, but he still burned a few pages.

Fast forward to last week, and his stepdad now has a complete book. And he'll probably ask her what her name is doing on this list.

Future ep: "MOM.........you have failed this city." *sound of arrow hitting her in the chest*

I'm Charlie Owens, good night and good luck. PSNID: CEOIII 1117
3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
#248: Dec 12th 2012 at 10:24:14 AM

Hmm, Mama Queen is more a candidate for a Heel Face Death courtesy of Jack Harkness.....I mean Merlyn Sr.

edited 12th Dec '12 10:24:58 AM by 3of4

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foodbattle ...What the brown? from Tahiti (it's a magical place) Since: Oct, 2009
...What the brown?
#249: Dec 12th 2012 at 12:50:44 PM

Looks like we've got a Roy Harper. He's going to be a love interest for Thea, and will eventually become important in Ollie's mission or something.

I'm going to guess that he and Thea meet because he's her drug dealer.

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firewing0 Since: Feb, 2011
#250: Dec 12th 2012 at 1:06:25 PM

Calling it now, Thea ends up dying and Roy takes her nickname. Probably wrong but meh.


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