Movie Bob said it best: If you read a comic and find something you're confused about and you're excited enough about it to find out what it actually is then HOORAY you're into comics. If not, then the thing that confused you probably isn't going to magically become more interesting once you read about it so then this hobby probably isn't for you.
It's not even that difficult anymore. I would be able to understand the attitude even ten years ago, but now with the number of internet databases dedicated to superheroes and the ease of access to the internet, you can easily look up a characters history, powers or anything that may affect the story for new readers. Hell, Wikipedia has articles on most of the major Marvel/DC characters. Even people don't want to bother to read it, it very rarely will be detrimental. My knowledge of "The Phoenix Saga" is minimal, but it doesn't bother me when it's mentioned in newer X Men stories. If it does matter, it probably isn't a good story to begin with. (I say the same thing about Science Fiction that relies on the readers knowledge of science, and Historical Fiction that relies on the readers knowledge of history). All you need to know about Scarecrow is that he's a villain that used hallucination gases. In a story where he's just a mook working under someone like the Black Mask, his history doesn't really matter except to those who already know it.
Why don't things like the The League Of Extraordinary Gentlemen or Fables get the same complaints? Yes, they take place in their own continuity, but people will probably appreciate them better if they're familiar with at least some of the source material.
edited 6th Oct '12 9:42:15 AM by supergod
For we shall slay evil with logic...I would guess that people in general are more familiar with the source material for LoEG and Fables due to cultural osmosis. Most people at least know of Mina Parker and friends, but who outside comic fandom has heard of the Phoenix Force?
edited 7th Oct '12 12:38:10 PM by VampireBuddha
Ukrainian Red CrossThe problem you're going to faces is every new continuity getting bogged down in Stations Of The Canon or each new continuity starting out with so much having already happened that you haven't solved the Continuity Lock-Out at all.
Which is still a fairly comparable point. People coming in from the outside know Cyclops from adaptations; places like the 90's cartoon, Evolution, and the X-Men films. Coming in from those and seeing Cyclops as the emotionally unstable leader of the last remnants of mutantkind, with Magneto as one of his most trusted advisors, sending out assassin crews like X-Force and making death threats to the mayor of San Francisco...it can still leave a newcomer going, "...this is not the character I know."
Tge characterisation of Cyclops over the past decade is something of a minefield just sticking to the comics. Nevertheless all 3 of those portrayals contradict each other somewhat. It's probable that a new reader has experienced at least two of them and so may not be completely sure what to expect from comic Cyclops. And this circles back round to the idea that comics should be held accountable to the interpretations of adaptions.
As for Magneto I suspect that a new reader will recognise that the former villain is now a member of the X-Men. They will either think "that's an interesting idea" or "that's a stupid idea". The latter reader will probably stop reading the book, but writers need to take risks or they'll capture nobody's interest.
Am I a good man or a bad man?Back when I read comics semi-regularly, back when I still liked Marvel, that was true for me too. The setting had many interesting concepts and much history. It kept me going for a good two years. Then pretty much all the questions I cared to ask had been answered and Marvel's "universe" was now getting in the way of telling a good story.
There were still comics I liked, but there would be a "huge" event involving the uninspired Avengers, the creator's pet Thanos and those comics would be gone or radically altered. Eventually, I found a book that managed to stay good on a consistent basis, called Spider-man. There were stupid stories like changes, crap from crossover events I didn't care about, but for the most part I liked everything Spider-man from Adventures to the "gritty" Marvel Knights. Even in otherwise idiotic House Of M there was a decent Spider-man story. Then there was one more day, almost everything I hate about Marvel all rolled into one plot line.
Apparent important figure who clashes with comic's established tone completely and serves little purpose for a rational narrative?(how do brood impregnate Ghost rider?) Personalities being nothing like what was previously established?(Madelyn Prior's evil okay) Character abilities being widely inconsistent with everything previously shown for the sake of the plot being impossible without this contradiction?(Spider-man threw a truck, and it knocked out the Hulk) Use of space magic when a completely mundane solution could solve the problem already, coming off of the heels of a story that solved a similar issue much more mundanely no less?(You see, Cletus Cassidy found an exact copy of the carnage symbiote in the Negative Zone, even though the things can reproduce through budding) Years of history and semblance of long term character development wiped away?(What do you mean Blade wasn't always like the movie version? Huh, Morbius cured? To hell with that noise! A character can never change!) Editorial using a writer who was vocally opposed to the story?(Priest, you interviewed for the Daredevil comic but we put you on Black Panther instead, even though we know you don't like Black Panther).
Actually yes, I would prefer Spider-man growing old and dieing to any more of that. I tried following other Marvels for a while, some of them were okay but none gripped me like Spider-man and to this day I have this nagging feeling that giving Marvel any of my revenue is on some level saying I forgive them for so many terrible books and hope they run their stagnant "universe" into the ground. That I appreciate that insult you gave your own readers. Today I'm only buying a Marvel book unless it is unconnected to and doesn't resemble 616 in anyway shape or form. I wasn't against watching a movie or something cause those tend to be stand alone that keep to themselves but even that seems to be changing...
Modified Ura-nage, Torture Rack![]()
Not for the first time. And it makes sense, and works well.
The thing is, most of the shit you're complaining about has always been a part of comics. I've been trying to make my way through Marvel's entire history, reading their comics since Fantastic Four #1. Some great stories have been done based on the sort of thing you're complaining about. And some of your examples weren't bad. (The Ghost Rider could be implanted with a Brood because he has a mortal host. Madelyne Pryor turning evil was handled well.)
Also, Thanos has always been awesome. Creator's Pet or not, Thanos kicks ass.
X-Men X-Pert, my blog where I talk about X-Men comics.
I didn't think it was that bad. I liked Inferno, and the Goblin Queen. She was going through a lot of personal problems, was feeling really vulnerable, and that opened her to demonic influence. Worked for me.
I will agree with this. I also find myself lamenting the constant resurrections rule of comics regarding Thanos; I would not have minded Annihilation being his swan song. It was a really good exit for his character.
edited 7th Oct '12 3:29:10 PM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.So Odin looks into the well of knowledge, learns he will be eaten by a giant wolf, loses an eye and a whole lot time he could have spent not bleeding to death on a tree. Thanos looks into the well of knowledge and gains ultimate power...what?
Ahkenetan, the host of the heart of the universe that's been 3000 years in the waiting, can't do half with it that Thanos can. This dude thwarts all the sky fathers, time travelers, cosmic beings and telepaths but Thanos can just go to his base, without Ahkenetan noticing, take his power source and leave him for dead...and then for some reason defeat the Living Tribunal? Red Hulk kicked ass, does that make him a bearable pet too?
And my point with how every gripe I had with One More Day had happened before was illustrating Marvel past wasn't much better than what it put out at the time(or in the distant future of 2012). Sure, there was the enjoyable Planet Hulk and World War Hulk following House of M, Civil War, One More Day but not too long after there was Red Hulk and Secret Invasion. Ignoring events, which comic lasts seems arbitrary. Mystique is canceled while the lower selling Arana and Spider-girl get to keep going. The rebooted heroes for hire(that's beating a dead horse) gets to outlast the completely superior Next Wave? I think Marvel is more concerned about putting out the comics they want to, not the ones they think people will like.
Modified Ura-nage, Torture Rack...I think most writers in any medium are more concerned with telling the story they want to tell than with telling the story that they think the maximum number of people will give them money for. And those that aren't, should be.
Art should come before corporate economics in storytelling of any fashion.
edited 7th Oct '12 4:27:38 PM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.Thanos is a great character by himself, but the worst part about him is the stories tend to bend themselves over to him. But then, it has to be difficult narrating that thing of huge epic scale cosmic storylines without either ending up with a mammoth of an extremely complicated and complex tale, or taking a few storytelling shorcuts.
There is a point to be had in the notion that, with the existence of the internet, complaining about confusing continuity or extensive character histories could be seen to amount to whiny laziness. If you have a question about a character or story, you can easily go look up the details on the internet. Older fans can remember when this couldn't be done, and you were at the mercy of back-issue boxes and disposable income. You have the greatest information gathering tool in the history of mankind at your disposal; make use of it.
The writers, yes, should be telling the story they want to. I didn't say writers specifically I said Marvel, as in the company as a whole. JMS did not want to write one more day, they made him go along with it anyway. Tania Del Rio did not stick around with the company because she went where she could go back to writing what she wanted to. Marvel didn't ask her to stick around and write something she'd like to for them even though the issue she did was better than the last 18 of the low selling series they asked her to wrap up.
Everyone loved Christopher's Priest's Panther, maybe they knew something I didn't, but the fact remains that he said multiple times he didn't want to take on the book and didn't care if it was going to be cancelled or not and doesn't even care that Huldin steam rolled pretty much everything he laid down. Perhaps if they had given him a title he wanted he would have felt compelled to stick around and give advice for future stories, so you know, Black Panther wouldn't become a racist and wouldn't be involved in that marriage nobody likes.
Mark Guggenheim didn't want to write the Blade comic. It shows when the by about the second issue Blade's getting his ass kicked by Wolverine, the character Mark is most known for writing, Blade is acting out of character and his history is being disregarded, despite being much simpler compared to other Marvel characters, like Wolverine.
Hell, the creation of Arana isn't because Fionna Avery was itching to tell a story. It was because editorial wanted Spider-girl in 616 and also because the NEXT line was turning everyone into a teenage girl for some reason. The fact the character launched in Amazing fantasy 15 ended up not being Spider-girl was proof enough someone didn't really care. Hell its existence might still be justified, Amazing Fantasy outsold Spider-girl but they were both outsold by both Mystique and Rogue's books, both of which were canceled while the Spider-knockoffs generating less revenue got to keep going.(Even Gambit outsold Spider-girl and you guessed it, was cancelled. And you wonder why people bought Rob Liefeld's words about burying the X-men)
More recently, Marvel had the less financially viable Avenger absorb the greater selling X-men. Okay, the Avengers Movie made more money than anything the X-men put out recently but strictly talking comic books the X-men have always been a better book and a better seller than the Avengers. Its not like the writers could even come up with a decent reason for the teams to have anything more than a minor schism. These kinds of plots are an insult to the Submariner vs Human Torch! How badly could anyone really wanted to have wanted to tell this story if it can be picked apart as easily as "Send Hope out to meet the Phoenix Force. Possibly save billions of lives and keep Earth out of danger in the event it doesn't work."?
Namor trying to destroy New York made sense because that's what he does did. Human Torch trying to stop him also made sense. Namor revealing this was actually an act of revenge and taking responsibility for assuming the wrong party was surprising. Isn't Captain America barging into a sovereign state and trying to intimidate its leaders into giving him what he wants kind of out of character? Wouldn't the notion entire planets worth of people are being blown up be enough to convince the X-men to reconsider? Why exactly would the Avengers wait for the X-men to cooperate when they apparently have a plan to fight the phoenix anyway(that Quasar, Surfer, Nova, Adam Warlock, Moon-Dragon, Thor, Uri-El, Captain Universe and Dr. Strange are all ignoring).?Don't they care more about billions of deaths than the concerns of the X-men?
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The average serialized tv show also doesn't provide extensive plot recaps (though they will provide short ones, if the plot of a current episode demands it) or character bios either. If you jump in mid season, it's expected that you'll find a way to catch up. And you have multiple means of doing so, too.
Have I ever mentioned how much I despise this attitude?
No work of fiction should ever require the reader to consult external material to figure out the plot. If the story doesn't explain itself and the reader has to look up a reference, that's a flaw with the story, not the reader.
Ukrainian Red CrossI can't think of too many examples of works where you absolutely needed to understand continuity to enjoy a story. The only one that comes to mind is Final Crisis.
I just don't think that, say, Poison Ivy's powers and origins have to be explained every time she makes an appearance, if it's not vital to the plot. If people are interested, then they can look it up.
edited 8th Oct '12 5:53:24 AM by supergod
For we shall slay evil with logic...

Speaking of personal experience from when I started reading comics: I came in at Civil War which was a huge, continuity-driven clusterf*ck. Coming in from the adaptations, there were about a million characters and plot points I didn't know, and countless more I did know that weren't WHAT I knew.
Tony Stark is an alcoholic? Spider-Man is an adult? Who is Gwen Stacy? Captain America is a character, and not just a walking ad for patriotism? New Warriors? Nitro killed Captain Marvel? I thought Captain Marvel was an inappropriately-named DC character?
There were a million questions when I first started reading comics. That didn't discourage me from reading comics. That, if anything, encouraged me to read MORE comics in order to find answers to the questions I had, as well as wiki articles and other resources that I could find to help understand things.
I was EXCITED by the huge, interwoven universe that Marvel has created, and desperately wanted to know more. I still get excited every now and then when a superhero or supervillain comes onto the page that everyone knows, has clearly been established previously, but that I've never heard of.
I read most of the Marvel line because the story of the Marvel Universe as a single large, interconnected behemoth is what really got me into reading in the first place. The Continuity Lock-Out didn't push me away; if anything, it's what hooked me in the first place.
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.