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Cataphryct Since: Sep, 2012
#1: Sep 21st 2012 at 3:48:03 PM

I'm thinking of writing about a fantasy world which deviates from the usual kings n' serfs route, namely by having the serfs taking part in a fully-fledged communist uprising. How would I be able to have this naturally occur, bearing in mind in the real world it took millenia of crap before our peasants got round to the idea?

MrShine Since: Jun, 2011 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
#2: Sep 21st 2012 at 8:01:10 PM

There are a lot of examples of peasant uprisings in Europe during the medieval period, you can find a list of them here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_revolt_in_late-medieval_Europe Most of them were not very successful over a long term though, the longest time I can find a medieval uprising lasting for is five years, in Flanders. Understandably the powers in europe did not want peasant uprisings to be a common thing, so even if they were successful in overthrowing the local country's ruler, the major military powers like france, england or germany would quickly move to crush them and restore order.

From skimming through a few examples i would say the ingredients for a successful uprising would be: war, famine, over-taxation, and a charismatic leader for the uprising. In order to have a popular uprising be successful over the long-term you would have to come up with an unlikely scenario where none of the major powers could move to destroy it for whatever reason (possibly a plague or major continental war?)If its fantasy you could maybe come up with a cooler, magical reason.

There would be problems with setting up a socialist system in medieval times. First, the philosophical underpinnings of socialism did not yet exist. Second, peasants were not educated and didn't know anything about civics. So anything they set up would probably just resemble the feudal system that they already knew. That's a lot harder issue to solve without getting marx or engels to go time-traveling.

Jordan Azor Ahai from Westeros Since: Jan, 2001
Azor Ahai
#3: Sep 21st 2012 at 8:11:11 PM

While not a successful example, the Dragaera series (mostly in the novels Teckla and Phoenix has a Communistic revolt within a High Fantasy setting- the author Steven Brust is a Socialist, and is probably sympathetic to them, although the narrator/protagonist Vlad isn't.

Also, Mistborn deals with a peasant revolt against an Evil Overlord- one thing that's kind of interesting about both this and to an extent Dragaera too, is that (unlike Tolkein) it presents the typical Medieval Stasis as a bad, even unnatural thing that is tied into the oppression of the lower classes.

Hodor
DoktorvonEurotrash Lex et Veritas from Not a place of honour (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#4: Sep 22nd 2012 at 3:24:15 AM

If you're interested in looking at older fantasy (as in pre-20th century), William Morris' The Sundering Flood contains a rebellion (I think more of tradesmen than peasants, it's been a while since I've read it) against robber-baron nobility. Morris was politically radical and definitely didn't subscribe to the pro-monarchist stance of a lot of post-Tolkien fantasy.

The novel can be read at Project Gutenberg. It's quite long, though, and the rebellion doesn't show up until towards the end.

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#5: Sep 22nd 2012 at 10:03:23 AM

Of course you could always have your characters go the participatory democracy route, a la the Althing in Iceland, or any of the Republican City-States that existed in Continental Europe at that time. None of those were socialist, but all your characters have to do is give slaves the vote, appropriate all private property, redistribute it on some basis, and you basically have a kind of proto-socialism.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
SKJAM Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#6: Sep 22nd 2012 at 10:10:33 AM

To prevent Socialist Land being crushed quickly by the monarchist neighbors, I'd recommend it be isolated by natural features or disaster. (Heck, disaster isolation might be what causes the revolution in the first place—Things go south badly, and the hidebound lorda/king won't do what is necessary to recover from the disaster. Say, the climate has changed and new farming methods are needed, but the lords insist on no such new-fangled ways on pain of faster death.

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#7: Sep 22nd 2012 at 10:21:32 AM

A nice big wall works just as well. As would a phalanx of heavily armed pikemen.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
MrShine Since: Jun, 2011 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
#8: Sep 22nd 2012 at 11:08:50 AM

I expect the heavily armed pikemen would be more interested in sticking the heads of our leaders up on top of that nice wall rather than protecting them from harm, since they would be retainers of the nobles the uprising is trying to overthrow. No private armies back then, anyone with military experience will be loyal to the nobility.

edited 22nd Sep '12 11:09:14 AM by MrShine

Rhea from Syracuse, NY, USA Since: Aug, 2010
#9: Sep 22nd 2012 at 11:18:41 AM

If all the peasants can do magic, does feudalism still make sense? Didn't feudalism exist partially because the nobility had the military technology and power to both protect peasants and push down uprisings? The nobles had the best protection their money and influence could buy. Most settings keep this balance by awarding magical control to the nobles, but you don't have to. If all the peasants can suddenly do magic, maybe it would cause the kind of socialist uprising you're describing.

MasterGhandalf Since: Jul, 2009
#10: Sep 22nd 2012 at 12:14:18 PM

Depends on how magic works. If magic is something anyone can potentially do, but only with proper training and the aristocracy controls the Wizard School (s), then the nobility should still be able to hold on to power. If everyone can do magic, but the nobility still hold the monopoly on military or economic force, then the system should still work (See Jim Butcher's Codex Alera). If the peasants have magic and the nobility can't, for whatever reason, and magic is strong enough to counterbalance mundane military advantages like fortifications/armor/higher quality weapons etc, then the nobility probably aren't long for this world (though in that case, you'd have to wonder how the system got that way in the first place).

MrShine Since: Jun, 2011 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
#11: Sep 22nd 2012 at 12:24:53 PM

[up][up]That's one of the reasons I avoid high fantasy, stupid magic systems that are designed to only uphold the status quo...

Jordan Azor Ahai from Westeros Since: Jan, 2001
Azor Ahai
#12: Sep 22nd 2012 at 12:36:32 PM

In the series examples I gave, peasants are excluded from using/unable to use magic. Come to think of it, in a way the Bartimaeus series there is a similar deconstruction of fantasy worlds and exclusion of peasants from using magic.

Hodor
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#13: Sep 22nd 2012 at 7:56:08 PM

I was responding to the suggestion that a socialist region would need natural barriors to protect itself from its neighbors. I wasn't suggesting that pikemen would overthrow the nobility in some sort of revolution.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
MrShine Since: Jun, 2011 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
#14: Sep 22nd 2012 at 8:04:04 PM

[up]I know. I was disagreeing with you.

DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#15: Sep 22nd 2012 at 8:18:56 PM

This socialist revolt...what type of Socialism/Communism will it be?

Marxism–Leninism? Libertarian Socialism? Christian Socialism? Maoism? Eco-socialism? Titoism? Social Anarchism? Stalinism? Liberal Socialism? Trotskyism? Christian Communism? Scientific Socialism? Utopian Socialism? Jewish Socialism? Social Democracy?

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#16: Sep 23rd 2012 at 8:56:29 AM

@Shine- hmm, then I don't get it. If they serve a socialist city-state, which aristocracy are impaling the heads of?

@Dev- probably a more primitve proto version that doesn't exactly correspond to any of those.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
Izeinspring Since: Jun, 2012
#17: Sep 23rd 2012 at 11:54:21 AM

Socialism requires industrialization - It is simply not an option at lower tech levels. This most emphatically does not mean that feudalism is the only game in town for fantasy setting. Historical examples:

Pseudo-Anarchism: Examples: Iceland, Albania: There is a codex of law which is widely agreed upon, but no rulers, no sheriffs, no apparatus of state at all. Instead, the general populous is armed to teeth and bloody-minded as all hell about enforcing that law. Robbery and theft are rare, because there is no such thing as a bystander - violate the law, and you get summarily cut down. The downside is, of course, that if people disagree whether such a summary execution was just, you risk a series of retaliatory killings. Various mechanisms exist to settle such feuds, but the level of violence is, none-the-less quite high.

Empire: When operating correctly, a levy of farmer-soldiers enforces the rule of an imperial bureaucracy, which usually amounts to "Pay your taxes and do not bother the traders". China, Rome, Byzantium, the ottomans. Usual failure mode: Rot from the top, and occasional massive plagues (because a functional empire is a gigantic free trade zone, diseases spread through them like wildfire)

Urban Republics, with and without territory: What it says on the tin. A city which is a republic. Main weakness being that a single city, no matter how rich (and the Republics were often *absurdly* rich, compared to everywhere else) cannot raise much of an army, so mostly, they relied on the sea, terrain and alliances for defense. Leagues of such were not unknown, but should not be mistaken for a modern state.

Cataphryct Since: Sep, 2012
#18: Sep 25th 2012 at 1:27:57 PM

I was thinking as a starting point, i'd have a mildly deconstructed fantasy setting - a Minas Tirith-style city on the brink of a Mordor-expy (or some suitably villainous Empire), the Lords of which are summoning armies from multiple kingdoms to launch a crusade of sorts into it. But then, in the style of the Fourth Crusade, the peasant levies of the crusade realise that their more immediate enemies are the lords of the city (we'll have them as oppressive and decadent) and sack the city, leading to a popular movement that goes back to each native land...

supergod Walking the Earth from the big city Since: Jun, 2012
Walking the Earth
#19: Sep 25th 2012 at 2:39:13 PM

I think Arcanum had a character that could be interpreted as a socialist, but it doesn't really play a major role.

For we shall slay evil with logic...
NLK Mo A Since: May, 2010
#20: Sep 26th 2012 at 12:31:56 PM

As long, as you're in fantasy, having a supernatural aid could help the masses revolt. However, it might cheapen the effect, if that's what you were going for.

Likes many underrated webcomics
Sessalisk from Wheeeeeeeee Since: Sep, 2011
#21: Sep 28th 2012 at 3:40:12 PM

This is going to come off as awfully pimp-y of me, but the thread's title caught my eye and I'm surprised that no one's mentioned this one here yet. The Bas-Lag Cycle, especially the last book, Iron Council, is very heavy on socialist themes.

Most of it takes place in a fantasy expy of Victorian-era London where magic is extremely common, but attaining any level of proficiency in it requires either tremendous inborn talent, or extensive training. They have these creepy punishment factories where they physically alter criminals to the whims of industry and their legal system. They have people rising up and trying to overthrow the parliament so that they can instate their own socialist government. They have a communist society of renegade railway workers and whores!

:D

I can't stop gushing today... I apologise.

edited 28th Sep '12 3:40:34 PM by Sessalisk

Caaan anybody find me... Somebody to ♠
lordGacek Since: Jan, 2001
#22: Oct 7th 2012 at 12:48:36 PM

Marxism–Leninism? Libertarian Socialism? Christian Socialism? Maoism? Eco-socialism? Titoism? Social Anarchism? Stalinism? Liberal Socialism? Trotskyism? Christian Communism? Scientific Socialism? Utopian Socialism? Jewish Socialism? Social Democracy?

Historically, there was a share of movements that approached later ideas of socialism and communism. Christian Socialism/Communism seems like the proper pick, given how they usually stemmed from radical interpretation of doctrine.

Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#23: Oct 11th 2012 at 12:39:08 AM

[up][up]In fact, China Mieville usually includes at least some socialist elements in his works. Kraken, for instance, features a general strike by a union of familiars.

edited 11th Oct '12 12:40:45 AM by Iaculus

What's precedent ever done for us?
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