Maybe? I'm not forgetting that. Eothas could have stopped it, but having that power doesn't mean it didn't work — he did still vanish for twenty years. Maybe that was him biding his time, maybe not. There's a lot we don't know for sure. But we do know that the Magranite priests who built the Godhammer were in direct contact with Magran, and whatever she had them build was both something she thought would work against another god, as well as something she was determined that no mortal could know and be allowed to live. Maybe the latter was just her covering her tracks, but she did know Waidwen was really Eothas and she was intent on actually killing him. Whether it worked or not, it was something powerful.
Durance has some kind of special connection to the Godhammer, I'm not trying to argue that. But a lot of other people were there at that battle, and they didn't all lose their connection to the gods that we know of. Even if any of them did, to any lesser degree, the extent of the damage to Durance's soul could perhaps be explained by long-term exposure to the Godhammer during its construction. And so maybe his fellow builders might have had their souls slightly damaged as well, just not as heavily as Durance, for all we know. If we take the radiation metaphor a little further, maybe Durance's overall dose was just that much greater. Or maybe whatever sheared his soul in half and blinded Magran to his presence is mechanically similar to the method by which the Godhammer was intended to break Eothas's connection to Waidwen and kill them both.
I'm not saying I have all the answers. A lot of this is speculation, and given that Chris Avellone has left the company, there's a good chance we'll never know the original intent. I just don't think the only way Durance could have had his soul damaged is to have been one of the Dozen. It leads to a lot of other contradictions if he was and there's nothing to really suggest the builders and the Dozen were the same other than the fact that there were twelve of them.
...Reading the gamepedia wiki a little more, there's a contradiction between whether the builders all died channeling power into the Godhammer or whether Magran killed them later in a variety of ways — I thought they all died in the channeling other than Durance, myself. But either way, I do think their needing to channel power into the bomb, which in turn needed to be hidden under the bridge, means they probably weren't the twelve warriors ordered to stand on the bridge and hold Eothas there as a diversion. Which — damn this post has gone on for a while — is really the main thing I'm saying. The rest of it is meant to be speculated upon by design, I think.
tl;dr The Godhammer's pretty much the most interesting part of the lore of the first game for me. I can talk about it a lot without saying anything definitive.
Edited by Unsung on Jun 5th 2020 at 8:41:25 AM
Probably, yeah. Mostly these are spoilers about Durance, but as you've seen he does have a pretty major connection to the end of the Saint's War, and the Saint's War in general ends up being fairly important to the second game, and how that game begins tells you something about how this one ends, so... yeah.
Edited by Unsung on Jun 4th 2020 at 9:13:48 AM
My take is that Durance was closer to the detonation even if he wasn't at the bridge itself compared to the other builders. Magran then arranged the deaths of the builders to try and keep her role in the Godhammer a secret. She then missed Durance because of his damaged soul.
I actually don't think he was part of the Dozen anymore. Looking at the gamepedia again, the Dozen were indeed separate from the dozen Magranite priests who created the Godhammer (of which Durance was a member). Eight of them fell in battle against Waidwen, while the others presumably perished when the Godhammer detonated.
Edited by M84 on Jun 5th 2020 at 12:17:54 AM
Disgusted, but not surprisedSure, that could very well be. Mostly I just think the Dozen on the bridge and the twelve builders were different people who shared an Arc Number. Edit: Works for me, however you come by it.
Edited by Unsung on Jun 4th 2020 at 9:18:07 AM
But this...this whole section is what I'm her for. It is everything I love about fantasy settings.
Hylea: Because [Woedica] prizes authority over mercy. Laws over kith. She values the souls of mortals not for the beauty they create, but for what they can add to her power. She fears animancy. She believes that mortals may use it usurp the gods' power. Her power. She cares nothing for the innovation of kith. And how could she? She gives commands, not inspiration.
I did not think Durance's character arc would end like this. Eothas invaded the Dyrwood to stop Woedica and Magran turning her favor away from Durance wasn't because of his cowardice or brutality. It was because she was complicit in all this and intended for her servants to die. As Durance notes, she killed the one god of redemption, the one god who could forgive him for what he did. He has instead devoted his life to a goddess who wanted him dead because she was just as vile and scheming as the one we are trying to stop. Like I said, what an unexpected conclusion to his quest and I just feel all the sorrier for the man. Despicable as he and his opinions are, I think everyone can find pity for a broken, betrayed person. It's simply human nature to show compassion and pity for people in pain, no matter who those people are and what they have done. Of course, Durance is not a particularly self-reflective man. Even in grief and despair, his bitter rage resurfaces. There truly is nothing left in the man except a fiery hatred for all things, but I feel like he truly hates himself most of all. But it is Durance's most essential nature to never admit this and to go on trying to destroy others.
I also wrapped up Grieving Mother's quest, telling her it was okay that she used her powers to dull the minds of the mothers to try and make them miss that their children are Hollowborn. More interesting to me though, and something I totally failed to mention, is Eder's comment if you ue Grieving Mother to try and get a glimpse of his brother's soul and memories. He says something like "I appreciate the thought but I don't think this nice lady can help us." Yes, GM does mention that only you can truly see her and everyone else only sees an old peasant woman. But it never really comes up and so it's left to Eder to confirm that all our companions see Grieving Mother as nothing but this an average senior citizen who is traveling with us for...some reason. Which leads me to naturally question what they see her doing in battle? And why don't the soldiers and clerics and hunters and wizards ask you why you have a random peasant woman heading into dungeons?
But anyway, I could not stop with just Hylea. I had to talk to every god, hear all their fascinating revelations and opinions. Except Wael who I guess is mad at me for returning that book forever ago. Fuck him.
And...I kinda wish I had just stopped with my talk with Hylea. That final fight with the Pale Elves was a nightmare for me. I was like "there's only five of them. How hard can be it be?" They just won't stop slamming Confuse on me and the main dude won't stop buffing and hitting us with Freezing Pillars. After countless failed attempts I thought "okay, maybe standing by this one door isn't working. Are there any other doors?" There was. I've long realized the exploit of running away so far that some enemies just turn and walk away back to their original position while others will follow you. This way, I got only the main guy, the Healer and the Vanquisher. Even still, we barely won because I just assumed this was another failed attempt and didn't try as hard as I could have. By the time I realized my success in splitting up the fearsome Pale Elf fivesome, most everyone was dead. But never fear for Eder is here. Even with no Endurance left, I was able to lure away the Paladin and finish him off. And then my PC, Eder and Grieving Mother hobbled our broken bodies into the main room to easily dispatch the Sorceress. It feels so cheap and pathetic bu a win is a win. I just wanted to talk to the gods and get more lore stuff and then this shit took up so much time and energy. I was just glad it was over.
Rymrgand: [Woedica] desires to order chaos and shackle the agents of change in the world. Under her, all things would remain static and frozen according to her laws.
They want me to do something totally different with the souls, just destroy them. It seems a poor idea to across a god, even if my Watcher is not particularly faithful. And there isn't really anything wrong with annihilating these souls.
I remember when I was first getting into POE and trying to find a deity who was agreeable to me , a thread on Reddit was discussing "evil gods.' They listed Rymrgand alongside Skaen and Woedica. Others disagreed, saying he is just a god of entropy which is a perfectly natural thing. I suppose it;s his methods that are disagreeable, much like Skaen. A lot of folks here would support peasant revolts and whatnot but Skaen is every ugly peasant revolt stereotype ever. You can only make a just society on a just foundation and there is no justice in what Skaen does. Similarly, Rymrgand might be all about entropy and coldness, which are both neutral and even good in a way, but he wields them like a bludgeon at his own whim. If you afford the gods no special authority, then his whims seem cruel and vain, and people generally frown on being cruel and vain. Most god morality really does come down to "are divine beings deserving of special ethical considerations?" This is a big theme in this game especially and that is appreciated given my love for fantasy religions and gods.
Iovara: Engwith built gods from ideals, and an ideal on its own is a grotesque and vicious thing
Iovara: That's why he's always favored Woedica. It isn't her love of promises or justice, it's her disregard for the rules. Her willingness to do what is necessary. To Thaos, she is not a deity but an ally with which to conspire. When her power waxes, she does as she pleases with this realm as well as hers. And she wants that secret guarded as much as he.
I think Iovara and my self-created relationship with her is my favorite part of this game's main plot. I noted earlier that my backstory with her was that I loved her but she didn't love me back. At the time it was just a confused whim - "that sounds interesting" - because I didn't understand what I was doing. To be consistent, I gave my reason for siding with Thaos as I resented her. She acknowledged all my choices and said she loved me even if it was not in the way i loved her. There's something very satisfying about how this all tied together and knowing I shaped it, if you understand my meaning. I take roleplaying very seriously, put a lot of myself into my character, and I feel like, at least in this, POE really responded to me and I felt a real connection to Iovara's character thanks to it. I will play this game again someday and I look forward to talking with Iovara once again with a new history between us.
I'd be very interested to hear what everyone else does with Thaos' soul and, more importantly, why you made that choice. I shattered it to give him peace. I would give Iovara the same peace if she would let me. Cultures all over the world teach how immortality - at least immortality in this world - is a nightmare beyond imagining. Whatever crimes Thaos committed, he doesn't deserve to suffer for them in this life. Best to just end him. I disagree with Pallegina, I think there is justice in this. The justice of mercy. Was his vision showing us the Engwithan people all killing themselves to make the gods while it was up to him to serve as the last living Engwithan and conceal this fact? He's done his best to erase his own people from history. What a miserable existence he has endured.
Also I'm very ashamed to admit I died to Thaos and the Woedica statues many times. My problem was thinking the smart move is to make Thaos retreat into his barrier so I only fight two enemies. After that failed many times I started by attacking the Judge first and killing it in, like, a few seconds. Thank God for all the food and potions I haven't used all game. Also the War Paint made by horribly killing people.... We're not so different, Thaos and I.
Have any of you ever read The Brothers Karamazov? There's one part in particular of that book that is studied a lot in classes that study Dostoyevsky as a philosopher and it's Ivan's poem of the Grand Inquisitor. If you don't know, the poem is about how Jesus' Second Coming is during the Spanish inquisition and the Grand Inquisitor has him arrested and then launches into a long speech about how he and the Roman Catholic Church have done more for people than Jesus ever did. It's a story that I think about a lot and having Thaos - the Grand Inquisitor - combined with the themes and ideas being discussed in the final hours of the game instantly brought it to mind. Maybe it even inspired the game. BK is one of the most famous novels ever and the Grand Inquisitor one of its most influential chapters.
"Your great prophet says in an allegorical vision that he saw all those who took part in the first resurrection and that of each tribe there were twelve thousand. But if there were so many of them, they cannot have been human beings, but gods. They had borne your Cross, they had borne decades in the hungry and barren wilderness, living on roots and locusts—and of course, it goes without saying that you may point with pride to those children of freedom, of a love that is free, of the free and magnificent sacrifice they have made in your name. Remember, however, that there were only a few thousand of them, and those were gods—but what about the rest? And in what way are the other weak human beings to blame for not having been able to bear the same things as the mighty? In what way is the weak soul to blame for not having the strength to accommodate such terrible gifts? And indeed, did you really only come to the chosen ones and for the chosen ones?"
[...]
"There will be thousands upon millions of happy babes, and a hundred thousand martyrs who have taken upon themselves the curse of the knowledge of good and evil. Quietly they will die, quietly they will fade away in your name and beyond the tomb will find only death. But we shall preserve the secret and for the sake of their happiness will lure them with a heavenly and eternal reward. For if there were anything in the other world, it goes without saying that it would not be for the likes of them. It is said and prophesied that you will come and prevail anew, will come with your chosen, your proud and mighty ones, but we will say that they have saved only themselves, while we have saved all."
Compare with:
Watcher: So you would keep the secret [of the gods] hidden.
Skaen: Safely hidden, yes. From the violent overlords who would cease to fear punishment in the next life. From the heavy-handed masters who would answer to no one. The world needs some scheme. Or are the souls of kith so pure that you would snap the tenuous threads that bind society?
Iovara: What if we can be assured of nothing?
Watcher: Then the fewer people who realize that, the better. People need to know that things happen for a reason. A fabricated reason is better than none at all.
Thaos: All mysteries forever unanswered. All purposes constructed from meaninglessness. No endings to being closure. Only a Wheel, turning without mercy, grinding our spirits to dust.
Watcher: You're right, that's no way to live.
One of the options you can give in response to Thaos and Iovara is basically "then so be it." Just blow the doors open and tell everyone the gods are fake and that there is no bread or mystery or miracle. But why would anyone wish for that? My PC had told Thaos forever ago that they feared that absolution was impossible, that they had done something so horrible nobody could ever forgive them, not even gods. And this apparently has been what has plagued my Watcher, driving them to pursue Thaos. Not just for justice or love or answers to cosmic truths but the need to confront him on how he had lied when he assured me of the infinite forgiveness of the gods. Ever since finding Maerwald, and maybe even before, the dialogue option of "he [Thaos] did this to me, now undo it" has popped up constantly. You want to be un-Awakened, not just to escape eventual madness, but to be at peace. Now you know the gods aren't real, and they don't offer the forgiveness your ancient soul has craved. Better to have never known this, to never let others experience the same unparalleled agony.
And so it's done. Aloth was Thaos' apprentice. Who knew.
Anyway, final thoughts. Pillars of Eternity was a fun game. Solid 6-7/10. But in the final hours, it truly became something special and great. If there was more stuff with Thaos and Iovara? This game could have risen to an 8-9/10. The main plot is shockingly sparse for how important it is to your characterization and the events tacking place in the world. Some people have talked about how you're supposed to be afraid you'll go mad like Maerwald did but that almost never comes up. Thaos enters the picture really, really late if you've been doing sidequests. I just wish they had emphasized the main story more because the main story is absolutely the best part of this game for me. Seeing my choices come to fruition in Sun in Shadow was immensely rewarding and made me truly feel a connection to my character. I guess I'd say I enjoyed the game, it was fun, but only at the end, with the gods and Iovara and confronting Thaos, did it grow into something truly great.
Also the final hours have done wonders for how I imagine my character transitioning into Deadfire. I've often thought about "I wanna play a Steel Garrote but didn't I spend the last game fighting Woedica?" Well, all the revelations and discussions here really can explain a radical change in perspective. Skaen's promises of power and partnership are hollow and I don't think anybody can believably be tempted by them. Everything else though....that could definitely send your mind (soul?) into a tailspin and you would clutch onto any lifeline. I included the lines about Woedica as they're the first real "characterization" you get on her. I think it's really interesting that the other gods do speak, ad Skaen even speaks for Woedica, but Woedica herself remains silent. The only thing you get from her is a sight of a woman who is bowed but not broken, who trudges on doggedly, and then finally you are graced with one feature, her "merciless eye" staring back at you.
"When Woedica takes back her throne, all wrongs shall be righted."
Edited by Nikkolas on Jun 6th 2020 at 11:42:18 AM
I can't find Thaos sympathetic. This is someone who admits to committing so many atrocities throughout history that the recent Hollowborn crisis is one of the lesser ones by comparison.
And for what? To prop up a bunch of gods that he knows aren't actually gods but simply powerful constructs created through animancy?
Disgusted, but not surprisedThat finale is what it's all about. I liked the first few hours of POE the first time I played it, but I admit I had a real struggle getting through the middle section. It felt generic. But that final dungeon, those last conversations and big reveals — that was great. That was everything I wanted from a pseudo-sequel to Mask of the Betrayer.
It's hard to pity Thaos as an individual, having done the things he's done — but he's still a living thing, and I do pity him that these were the lessons he drew and the burden he took upon himself. Especially given that, probably unsurprisingly, I tend to side with Iovara. A burden shared can be lessened, and preserving a lie for the sake of sparing others suffering the pain of the truth is just making the damage that much worse once if finally comes. And it will come, sooner or later. For all the things Rymrgand is wrong about, he's not wrong about that. Better to at least start building toward the future than to keep trying to endlessly shore up the moldering edifice of the past.
I wiped his memory on my main. Maybe there's something good that can come out of that soul. His soul is not his alone, given the way souls work in the setting. it's not my place to make that judgment. Though I personally think you can't really justify the risk of Thaos ever Awakening again, this world is provably not that kind of fantasy. But my character was a lot nicer than me.
I'm looking forward to what you think of Deadfire. It takes this reveal and runs with it in a big way, though maybe not in the way one might expect at first. And you might want to try White March eventually. If you liked the philosophical sweep of the last few hours of this game, I think you'll like a lot more of the DLC than you did the main campaign.
Edited by Unsung on Jun 6th 2020 at 1:53:45 AM
Yeah everybody says White Marsh rules but I was gifted just the base game when I was broke. When I finally got money I was almost done and also the Steam sale starts in a few weeks so I can't justify spending $30 on DLC now and I certainly wasn't waiting weeks to finish this game. Also $30 is more than I paid for Deadfire Obsidian Edition.
I'll definitely play The White Marsh someday when I replay POE 1.
I should mention that I reverted to my original plan to play as a Fanatic (Paladin/Barbarian) and here is my idea:
Pale Elf - Mage Slayer/Steel Garrote - M16 C8 D19 P10 (+1 from Background) I18 R6
Lots of folks say to go with Berserker and I admit the Mage Slayer penalties sound really bad. But fuck, I liked the description a lot. It inspired my whole "new" character with the Pale Elf and Hunter background. They come from the harsh, isolated White That Wends and the village instilled in her a prejudiced attitude towards magic. The only solution to magic is to carve mages into bits. It also goes a way to explaining the Paladin and "Fanatic" title. People from such small communities would definitely be more likely to be intensely religious, somewhat like the people in POE 1 towards animancy. Have faith in the gods, don't overstep your mortal bounds, that kinda thing.
I'm playing on Classic with Level Scaling for All but only up. Also sticking with RTWP because, while I prefer turn-based, this is what I'm used to right now. POE just wouldn't feel the same turn-based.
Eder: For Eothas!
Me: Maybe you should stop doing that in this game.
And that's where I'm stopping. I'm tired and just wanted to get things a little bit started. I swear there is some survivor from the ship I'm missing. I heard a voice, a man's voice I think, but no luck. I climbed on to the ship and helped the girl with the fucked up leg and saw the ghost of the other crewmen. But no other survivor that I could locate. I'm sure I'm just missing him.
So far the game looks way, WAY better and plays a lot smoother. Load times are reduced by 100%, thank god.
No pity for Thaos here, unsurprisingly.
We have a separate discussion thread
for Deadfire, if you're done with the first game for now.
Obsidian announced Avowed, a first-person action RPG which is set in Pillars's setting, Eora
.
No real details beyond the nice trailer though.
Kinda knew we wouldn't be getting another isometric RPG, but I am happy to see we're getting another game set in the same world relatively soon after the buyout. Was kind of worried that Microsoft them bought them to make games like Grounded — which looks cute, don't get me wrong, but I do like the kind of darkly comic, deconstructionist RP Gs Obsidian is known for (which Grounded sorta-kinda hints at as well, I admit, but still). Between this and the DLC for Outer Worlds, I'm tentatively pretty pleased. Though not quite as pleased as if we were miraculously getting POE 3.
Wonder if this game will let you play as different races, change the camera height if you're an orlan or an aumaua. Maybe have some crawlspaces only orlans can access. That sounds like a lot of work, but doing a lot of extra work is kind of Obsidian's thing.
Edited by Unsung on Jul 23rd 2020 at 12:18:56 PM
I mean on one hand it is nice to have competition for Elder Scrolls that might motivate Bethesda to eventually step up their "people will buy our games anyway!" ass, but on otherhand, I'm kinda worried they are assuming Po E 2 didn't sell well because it was isometric rather than any of other possible reasons(perceived "pirate" theme, game having overly huge budget, etc)
Edited by SpookyMask on Jul 23rd 2020 at 10:00:16 PM
^^ They didn't give up on the dream of isometric real-time-with-pause for all the years it took them to Kickstart the first Pillars, and they can see themselves that DOS 2 was a smash hit and people came out in droves for the second Pathfinder game. But they can also see that games like New Vegas and The Outer Worlds have been some of their most anticipated and successful outings — and that's with somewhat more simplistic combat, AI, and class-building, reusable and modular buildings... all without necessarily sacrificing the deep dialogue trees they also love. So I can understand how it's a compromise they're willing to make, once again, given their financial situation.
^ I get that, yeah. I'm hoping there's still some low-combat routes.
I'm kinda curious of whether Avellone's reputation affects Obsidian btw.
Like back when Avellone left company, he did kinda shit talk Obsidian iirc, but that didn't cause much of internet conversations in first place besides "Well Avellone isn't at company anymore, so not expecting much from Obsidian" but since Avellone's reputation is now low, I wonder if Obsidian's reputation is better by comparison due to Avellone no longer being seen as "the" good writer despite not literally writing everything in their games?
So, I'm finally sitting down and finishing Pillars of Eternity and I think I've finally hit what feels so off about this game. I've been feeling odd about it; I love every idea the game has and should adore it... but feel weirdly bored by it. And I couldn't figure out why.
And it didn't really hit me until I just finished the meeting with the Duc.
There are really really good moments here; I think Gilded Vale and the tolling bells during your arrival, talking to the dead dwarf woman, meeting the old Watcher in Caed Nua, are all really memorable scenes... but they're sandwiched between long stretches of nothing happening and/or loads and loads of exposition. There's not a good chain of narrative linking these moments together. And the exposition didn't have any better or more interesting ways to be delivered via quests and the script kinda word vomits every other conversation. Idk if this is a script development issue or they were grappling so hard to how Isometric RP Gs tell their stories they didn't have a better way but... I replayed the first act of this game four times and it took me until then to REALLY pick up on everything the game was trying to convey in it's exposition. All the Nouns just rolled out of my head the first time with nothing to graft them too.
For the majority of this game, my best motive for the plot is "Idk. That guy with the mask might know what's going on. Better go find him". And that's... not particularly strong. Which is why I think the Duc's assassination really clicked it for me. *This* is the moment that established him as a villain. Not the mysterious past or the "He woke my soul" (which... didn't really make sense?) things that the game wants to use to drive you. His killing the Duc just as you think you've solved a lot of problems puts the stakes in the game. But... it feels like I'm 70%-80% done with the game at this point? And I feel like the other three major locations I went to earlier; the asylum, the undead district, and the ruins, should have felt like establishing moments but weren't.
And Lady Webb is killed just after which feels out of place because I kinda feel like I just met her in the same hour that she died. I like her, I like this character, but she's gone just as fast as she came into the plot and didn't 'do' much on screen.
I feel like a lot of these plot points are all out of order. The Duc should be assassinated earlier BEFORE we meet Lady Webb; it establishes the villain and Lady Webb can point us in better directions to the plot while we're aware of what the villain can do and that her days are numbered until he catches her. Which would be better impacted if we come back and... just find the floors soaked in blood. Rather than tying it into the Duc's death which lessens her death a bit. I think the Asylum should also come after as a 'reveal' of how Thaos assassinated the duke. The 'soul-jump' should be shown without context and watching the assassination is enough mystery to want to know what the hell just happened.
Aloth being a Leaden Key member also felt oddly... under-used so far? Like, it didn't feel like there was a plot beat or 'moment' for it. It just comes out that he is and... we move on? Maybe it'll come up as I round into the finale but it feels like it should have been more important by now. Or, heck, could we have tied that into the Duc's assassination somehow instead?
I could keep going on but I want to like the game and I do, but the plot feels messy the more I poke at it.
How good is the sequel in comparison? Does it handle some things better?
EDIT: Correction. Aloth being a Leaden Key member apparently DIDN'T get revealed to me. I opened the game after hitting post, walked 5 steps, and then he told me. I just apparently read into earlier conversations and thought he had told me... oops.
Edited by InkDagger on Aug 11th 2020 at 9:24:32 AM
The first few acts of the first game are a slog, plot-wise. The combat is pretty good as a riff on the Infinity Engine, it's quite deep, but yeah, in trying to homage the original Baldur's Gate, it does willingly feel a bit sparse and disconnected at times. You kind of have to go out of your way to absorb the worldbuilding.
That being said, I really did like the ending when I finally got around to finishing the game, and that made me like the rest of the game a lot more. The final few big conversations/confrontations, and also the DLC, those are both great. Worth the price of admission. Worth the slog, even.
Second game is a leap forward in almost every way, to my mind. Better graphics, more cohesive plot, more interconnected setting, more relevant factions. Feels like a lot of old school people didn't like it just because it was pirates and... soulpunk, for lack of a better world, but this was really only superficially a medieval setting even in the first game. There are a few pacing issues, but the game does a better job of immersing you in plot right off the bat, and provided you like the plot and are engaged by the factions, I do think it's one of the best things Obsidian's done. Just a shame more people didn't see it that way.
I just finished the first game today (I'll go into more detail later if folks want, or move to the Deadfire thread, on the same condition), and it was really interesting. I kind of zipped through with a guide, since I'd played before and wanted to set up a good save for Deadfire. Still, a very enjoyable experience, barring some hiccups with the combat.
One thing I ended up feeling weird about with the ending, though... there are many options, generally Rational and Benevolent, that allow you to take a kind of Optimistic Nihilism view on the gods question - there is no outside validation because there are no extant gods, but it's still entirely possible to find validation and purpose in oneself, one's works, and one's loved ones, that sort of thing. But at the same time... the difference between the Engwithan pantheon and any hypothetical Real Gods feels like a minor one at best. The Engwithan gods are present, powerful, and undeniable; even if there IS a lie to them, in that they were made by kith, that just makes them works made by the kith. It makes them institutions. The Crucible Knights were made by kith, but their power and presence are very real. Defy them, and you'll be punished, same as if you defy Abydon or Galawain. People align themselves with the gods because they want to, not because they're made to, despite their very real powers.
As a result, I can't help but wonder if the betrayal felt by realizing the Engwithan gods were created, is a combination of sour grapes and nebulous desire for "if we had to have created gods, they should have been something else. You wonder what the "real" gods could have been like, and compare imaginary perfect gods against the existing ones with their cruelties and preoccupations and failures, without acknowledging that the "real" gods would likely be just as capricious and cruel, and maybe even less comprehensible.
Whoops, I think I kind of talked myself into the Leaden Key there, albeit without all the secrecy and murder. People ought to know, but there's still use for the gods and their messages - as long as they're not being pricks.
Edited by RedSavant on Aug 16th 2020 at 12:11:03 PM
It's been fun.I also finished last night (technically this morning) and I'm grappling with my feelings about the game. My friend always pushes me to cut the essays and just say if I liked it; yes/no. And I'm leaning... more towards no so far.
SORRY FOR THE WALL OF TEXT. I HAVE FEELINGS AND I REALLY WANT TO TALK ABOUT THEM.
I'm not sure but maybe Isometric RP Gs are not my thing. I don't like having 5 characters I need to know the mechanics of intimately to play them all well, let alone also having a dozen more that just aren't in my party right now which I *also* need to know how to play well. There are so many spells and abilities and everything and... I just can't bring myself to care. And I don't know if that's a I-RPG thing or if it's that the story didn't hook me so the gameplay didn't hook me. And the perspective is so far removed from literally *everything* that I just find it hard to be invested in a handful of pixels frozen on a screen compared to, say, a cut scene and animation.
I want to like this story but it feels so... out of beat. The pacing feels non-existent. I was sold on this game being told that it's not afraid of being mature and talking about philosophy or other harder topics and I like the idea of that. But... it felt like we didn't get that tonal setting until the last minute.
I think the beginning is kinda weak and doesn't super invest me in what's happening besides *Oo Oo Oo Oo Oo My St Er Y* about who the random masked guy was but... that just felt weak. I DID however get super invested when I got to Gilded Vale. I like the moment of the tolling bells. I like the nightmares and talking to the hung dwarf on the tree. I actually felt horror and anger when I finally caught Raedric only moments after he's brutally murdered his wife. There were stakes and tensions, some dark themes, and even the side-quests built towards the area's story of the Hollowborn Crisis. I actually still remember deciding weather to induce a placebo on that poor mother or if I should tell the truth. Gilded Vale felt great.
But right after when we go to Caed Nua and Defiance Bay... the pacing just dies. There's not much of a time signature anymore. I couldn't really tell you anything about the sidequests in this section of the game. None of the quest arcs (The undead district, the ruins, the catacombs) really felt like they contributed to the whole of the plot in setting up deeper themes or ideas. Heck, I don't know what the hell the drug dealer who got kidnap-replaced and his fiance was going to break up with him contributed to any of the themes. They build a bit towards the eventual trial and assassination, but THAT didn't feel like it added much to Thaos' ultimate plan and the overall story. It felt like a minor 'Oh, they're about to discover a thing. Gotta go tie a loose end. brb' in his day. The deaths of the Duc or of Lady Webb would have hit harder for me if I felt much about them as characters but they came and went so quickly (possibly my fault on Lady Webb's part?) that I barely had time to know them. None of the mid half felt anymore mature or dark or philosophical than any other Bioware RPG could get. It felt pretty typical at best.
Which I think I see the problem the game is struggling with. The early game is horizontally focused; lots of people living their lives and their daily struggles with whatever is going on; prejudiced people, poor crops, Waedwen's Legacy/Hollowborn, etc. There *are* gods involved but in so much as the characters pray and have feelings about them, not as the gods as actual entities in this plot. But then this dramatically shifts by the end where this story is suddenly vertically focused; The Gods ARE entities present and will talk and have presence in the world and the struggles of mortals isn't really important too much besides the *general* welfare of the population. And there are ways to shift that focus or to have both but... this wasn't it. White March is a bit better about it since there's an actual marked beat where the shift happens.
The Companions are usually my favorite part of these kinds of games; I have issues with DA Inquisition but I still love the characters to death. I like how Eder was introduced. I think Aeloth could be really interesting. Grieving Mother feels like she was written to appeal to a lot of niches I like about some types of characters. But... very very few of them *do* anything. Let's take Aloth for example. He's got two landmarks; He's got a split-personality going on due to his awakened soul. And, two, he's a member of the Big Bad organization who could be poised to betray you at any moment. But NEITHER of these things go anywhere. Isylmer only rarely comes out for a rude remark. And Aloth confesses to being a Leaden Key member and it's never mentioned again. I never get to actually talk to Isylmer and see her as a *character* instead of just a rude interruption. Or for the Leaden Key Aspect, Morrigan from Dragon Age is a really good example of that kind of a 'plant' character done well.
The companions all just feel like non-entities when it's not their quest. And they don't really feel like they add to the total narrative. I can't think of a single good reason Sagani or Hiravias (as much as I do like their characters) are companions and not just side-quests. I ADORE Grieving Mother but she gets the worst end of the stick since because of her 'caul' thing, she can't even interact with anyone. They don't exist in the story except the odd remark. Even when Bioware is at their worst with this, the remarks still do give me some perspective on things sometimes. At their best, an entire quest changes tone because of the presence or absence of a companion.
By the end of the game, I was skipping walls of text (especially since, while the voice work is mostly good, the implimentation was TERRIBLE since it only voiced the actual dialogue between three paragraphs of intermittent prose) and had combat just kinda going on it's own. I wanted to be done. I actually skipped bounty quests because I was so over doing more and more and MORE busy work that wasn't contributing to anything.
But the ending... I really loved the ending. I liked the philosophy. I liked talking with the woman I betrayed in a past life. I liked the relationship with Thaos (even if I kinda wish we could have chosen our relationship to him at some point and had more control there). I felt *invested* in the build up to this ending. I like the reveal even if I have an issue or two with how it's been done (as pointed above, constructed or no, the gods DO have a definite presence here) and have seen it done a bit better elsewhere (I think Inquisition also did it a bit better) but I still liked it. And WE ACTUALLY GOT SOME CUTSCENES. Lights flying all over the map and statues coming to life and killing the big bad and... It felt good. I actually got invested.
I'm starting Deadfire now and I think it's already addressing *some* issues; The narration/prose is voiced so the dialogue isn't as stilted or lazy. There are actual animations and cut scenes to some extent now. While also... not correcting others; We start as a captain at sea and I don't really know *why* we're there. I ask why we are where we are and Eder mentions charting a ship after finding us but without ever explaining WHY he charted a ship. Since he was last I heard the mayor of Dyrford, I expected to wake in his place, not a ship. I'm confused why people keep referring to me as captain since I was comatose for gods know how long. But... maybe I'll just have to settle for now in favor of an opening that shoots me directly into the action.
It's explained in that same cutscene, where you talk to Eder and the Steward. Eothas stole part of your soul when he broke out of Caed Nua, so chasing after him was the only way to keep you alive - and Eothas is going to Deadfire Peninsula, so that's where Eder and the Steward brought you. As for why he was there, I expect he was one of the first to drop everything and rush to the ruins of Caed Nua after he heard the place exploded.
Edited by RedSavant on Aug 16th 2020 at 12:04:38 PM
It's been fun.As for why the Watcher is the Captain and not Eder...part of it is the fact that the ship and crew are bought and paid for with what was left of the Watcher's assets. And Eder's not the type to take charge if he can avoid it anyway.
Edited by M84 on Aug 17th 2020 at 12:09:39 AM
Disgusted, but not surprisedThere are people who really wanted what the first game had to offer, but me, I'm in the boat with everyone who thinks the second game was an improvement in just about every way. It's impressively (sadly) divisive. Very love-hate.
I do like the ending of the first game, not so much for what the reveal is but for how it's handled, those last two conversations with Deionarra Iovara and Thaos. And I think The White March improves on a lot of what your issues with the main game are — it feels a lot more cohesive and populated, quests and NPCs are interconnected in plausible ways. The main campaign suffers somewhat from wanting to be both a sandbox and also a compelling, somewhat linear narrative, and ends up giving both short shrift.
But I look at it as a (re-)learning experience. It was the kind of game Obsidian really wanted to make, but hadn't been able to in many a long year. They were finding their footing and had to take some shortcuts, but it all paid off with the sequel. Or it should've, but again, that love-hate thing.

Let's also not forget that the Godhammer only "worked" because Eothas let it happen. He let Waidwen meet his end on that bridge. And it didn't actually kill Eothas — it just killed poor Waidwen.
Edited by M84 on Jun 4th 2020 at 11:31:46 PM
Disgusted, but not surprised