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Shingeki no Kyojin/Attack on Titan (Manga Discussion)

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probablyinsane Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
#126: Jan 12th 2013 at 8:09:13 PM

[up] I don't think it should be 100% to be ranked as Badass Army or Cannon Fodder.

Anyway, I haven't gotten around to even figuring out how to add tropes. Lol, someone posted a list of Sn K Pixiv tags on Tumblr.

http://papermoon2.tumblr.com/post/40338458585/hey-validation-is-always-appreciated-and

I feel... sad that Rivaille X Eren is the current most popular ship in the Sn K JP fandom.

Plants are aliens, and fungi are nanomachines.
fillerdude Since: Jul, 2010
#127: Jan 12th 2013 at 8:46:15 PM

[up] Can't blame them for shipping those two.

It doesn't have to be 100%. Cannon Fodder is simply too low-level, while Badass Army is too high-level.

probablyinsane Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
#128: Jan 12th 2013 at 9:04:15 PM

[up] Right now, I think of the three - Redshirt Army, Cannon Fodder and Badass Army - the lowest (in terms of ability) is Redshirt Army.

My impression of Cannon Fodder is that they ain't incompetent. It's just that they have to die because the odds are just too much against them.

Plants are aliens, and fungi are nanomachines.
fillerdude Since: Jul, 2010
#129: Jan 12th 2013 at 9:17:24 PM

[up] Hmmm... Red Shirt Army is indeed lower. The thing with Cannon Fodder, the Scouts can fight back better than most examples of the trope.

probablyinsane Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
#130: Jan 12th 2013 at 9:36:00 PM

But most of them die. That's why they're called fodder, which also means animal feed, and in this case, they literally get eaten.

Anyway, the trope page already has RSS and baa. If we can call the Scouting League a RSS, they can also be CF.

Am on tablet, so it's abbr. for me.

Plants are aliens, and fungi are nanomachines.
fillerdude Since: Jul, 2010
#131: Jan 12th 2013 at 9:59:52 PM

[up] Well, I disagree with both Badass Army and Red Shirt Army labels, but if that's the consensus then Cannon Fodder can apply, yes. Besides, I'm too lazy to edit the page myself.

To be precise, they can't just die a lot. They have to die a lot and gain little... which is admittedly arguable.

But still:

  • Cannon Fodder exist to emphasize the superiority of the elite by providing a baseline normal.
  • A Redshirt Army exists to emphasize the danger of a situation by taking casualties.

Redshirt Army applies more because the deaths are there to emphasize how dangerous the Titans are rather than show how awesome Rivaille and Eren and Mikasa are.

Additionally:

  • Cannon Fodder has no other option but get killed and hope the reserves come in time.

Which is certainly not the case.

edited 12th Jan '13 10:00:18 PM by fillerdude

probablyinsane Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
#132: Jan 12th 2013 at 10:04:16 PM

[up]. Uh, the Scouting League has been dying a lot and getting very little in return.

Also, Rivaille looked stronger in the forest arc partly because of his squad's demise. That fits the Cannon Fodder definition.

The wall troops in the blocking of the hole arc definitely also qualifies.

edited 12th Jan '13 10:06:17 PM by probablyinsane

Plants are aliens, and fungi are nanomachines.
fillerdude Since: Jul, 2010
#133: Jan 12th 2013 at 10:16:11 PM

[up] Cannon Fodder applies to Rivaille's squad then, but not the army as a whole. Plus those guys in that blocking the hole arc.

"In most wartime shows that focus on Ace Pilots and other Military Mavericks, there will be a point when these are contrasted to "normal" foot soldiers who wear red shirts for standard issue uniform."

So the first issue is that SnK doesn't focus on Military Mavericks. It focuses on everyone.

"They have weak weaponry, little to no armor, their only strength are their numbers, and their only available tactic is Zerg Rush. And, of course, they die en masse."

Weak weaponry, maybe. Only strength is numbers = false. Zerg Rush = false. Dying en masse = true.

"Everyone in the unit is expected to die not for drama but just because of the unit's nature."

True.

What I'm saying basically is that Cannon Fodder only applies to certain squads and certain situations, but not the army as a whole.

But then again, you guys are the ones editing the page.


Now that I think about it, we already have Badass Army and Red Shirt Army referring to same army, so... I'm not sure what to think about it.

Though the RSA entry does specify which section of the army is the badass one.

edited 12th Jan '13 10:21:22 PM by fillerdude

probablyinsane Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
#134: Jan 12th 2013 at 10:24:11 PM

I haven't edited page and lol - am just compelled to refute your strict and narrow standards cause I am over-protective of the scouting league and even of the wall troops. At least , cannon fodder doesn't make light of their sacrifices nor belittles them the way the RSA trope does.

And yes, they are BADASS.

Now, if we are talking about the military police... I don't even want them mentioned anywhere on the trope page. /shuns the MP, especially the corrupt seniors

Plants are aliens, and fungi are nanomachines.
Pryun Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
#135: Jan 12th 2013 at 10:34:11 PM

My judgement on the tropes is based on the description given and the differences one of you gave. I'm not going to add tropes which are under discussion, so... (plus, I haven't added tropes like forever, haven't had the time.)

IMO the ARMY doesn't fit BADASS ARMY, since, in the first place, they die. Like flies. Occasionally someone gives the titans a run for their money, but as an army that is almost always on the defensive, have members die horribly to being called badass... I don't think a badass army should have a high mortality rate and low success rate either. Heck, while Titan Annie's capture was spectacular, they failed that mission in the end.

probablyinsane Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
#136: Jan 12th 2013 at 10:41:56 PM

Just because a bad ass dies does not mean he stops being a bad ass. I am sorry but I refuse to stop calling Colonel Quaritch from avatar a bad ass just cause he dies.

Same with Mike here T-T.

As for army, the scouting league counts because they know that 90% of them were about to die and yet they still applied. They are actually a more realistic sort of bad ass. They get scared and show fear and yet they keep on fighting.

Plants are aliens, and fungi are nanomachines.
fillerdude Since: Jul, 2010
#137: Jan 12th 2013 at 10:49:09 PM

[up] They are badass, but they do not fit the Badass Army trope. If we were to let people include any army they think is badass that page would overflow with examples—

Oh god someone listed the Gotei 13 from Bleach as an example. No no no.

Again, it's not a matter of what you think "badass" means. The Badass Army trope has a definition, stick to it.

probablyinsane Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
#138: Jan 12th 2013 at 10:53:02 PM

Still disagree. And anyway I've decided to keep hands off the trope page. Am too involved in this series, that I'll probably end up having an edit war with people who want to remove the bad ass army trope, lol.

Plants are aliens, and fungi are nanomachines.
Pryun Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
#139: Jan 13th 2013 at 6:29:23 AM

Have to agree with Fillerdude on this one. No badass army. I'm not talking about named characters here, I'm not saying those that die are not badasses either, it's just that the army ISN'T made of badasses. There are wimps that are useful in there, but are wimps. Would you consider Historia Badass?

probablyinsane Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
#140: Jan 13th 2013 at 6:37:11 AM

[up] A Badass Army doesn't have to be 100% badass.

Also, just because a Badass Army mostly dies or is wiped out - it doesn't erase their badass record. 300 - everyone died.

Real Life historical armies also suffer big losses, and yet they are still considered as Badass Armies.

You also have to judge their enemy. The Titans are not mook-level villains. When the competing armies are both competent, heavy losses are expected on both sides.

Real Life Bad Ass armies are also definitely not composed of 100% badasses. If you're going to keep on judging Bad Asses by the unrealistic standards of fiction, no real life army would qualify as a Bad Ass Army.

Plants are aliens, and fungi are nanomachines.
Pryun Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
#141: Jan 13th 2013 at 6:41:58 AM

Description on the Badass Army page(taken directly):

The Badass Army is made of 100% badasses and there is absolutely nothing that can stop them short of overwhelming numbers or an even better Badass Army. There is not a single soldier who can not hold his own in a fight.

See the first line and last line I selected out?

EDIT: Wait, there are only two lines. I meant first part of the line and last line, but... somehow I divided up the first sentence automatically.

edited 13th Jan '13 6:46:19 AM by Pryun

probablyinsane Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
#142: Jan 13th 2013 at 6:47:41 AM

[up] As I said, that's an unrealistic standard.

I'm sorry, but because of my dad - I watch a lot of wartime documentaries.

I will give an example - Britain during WWII - they were the last holdout against the Germans in WWII. They suffered a lot of losses. Everyone was against them. (USA took its sweet time deciding whether or not to help the Brits.)

Britain is a Bad Ass Country, and so is its army. I refuse to (not) consider them as Badasses (as a whole) just cause TV Tropes definition of a Badass must be 100%.

Besides, it's not as if I'm going to edit the trope page.

edited 13th Jan '13 6:48:35 AM by probablyinsane

Plants are aliens, and fungi are nanomachines.
fillerdude Since: Jul, 2010
#143: Jan 13th 2013 at 6:57:21 AM

[up] Actually, no. All the 100% means is: "There is not a single soldier who can not hold his own in a fight."

We're not telling you to change your definition of a badass, we're just telling you not to use it on a trope page, so it's fine since you aren't going to edit the trope page. We're not telling you to

probablyinsane Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
#144: Jan 13th 2013 at 7:06:45 AM

[up] And there isn't a single Real Life army without a coward. Sheesh.

Do you want to know where the term "decimation" comes from - it's from the Ancient Roman Army.

To prevent their soldiers from running away, they divide up their soldiers into tens. Then, each group of ten decide one for the 9 to kill.

And the Roman Army is one of the most badass armies in history.

It's pretty narrow-minded to stick with 100%, seriously.

Plants are aliens, and fungi are nanomachines.
fillerdude Since: Jul, 2010
#145: Jan 13th 2013 at 7:23:57 AM

[up] We're not being narrow-minded, we're being technical. Thank you for the discussion on the word "decimation", but I already knew about that thanks to World War Z. Do note that the Badass Army trope page has no real life examples.

You keep on pointing out the 100% thing— fine, let's say it just has to be a high number. The Scouting Legion still doesn't count because of the 90% mortality rate and because we have not seen their supposed badassery. Are we to assume that the majority of those 90% died a badass and not from, say, starvation?

The qualification for badass here is not their willpower, but their competence.

probablyinsane Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
#146: Jan 13th 2013 at 7:28:37 AM

[up] All right then, show me where the Scouting League was being incompetent.

Edit:

Also, the Badass Army page has THIS.

No Real Life Examples, Please!. There's way too many of them to count.

edited 13th Jan '13 7:32:29 AM by probablyinsane

Plants are aliens, and fungi are nanomachines.
fillerdude Since: Jul, 2010
#147: Jan 13th 2013 at 7:42:04 AM

[up] Now that is unfair; you're the one asserting that they're a Badass Army, you should be the one providing the proof. Nevertheless, there are points I'd like to make.

First off, the 90% who died. We have no way of proving if they were badass or not.

Then, their casualties. They are high, and furthermore, we see a variability in competence. Some of them get taken out quickly, some of them last longer, some survive.

They also fail their objectives. As has been said, they put so much effort and gain so little. They failed to block the hole in the wall.

They're not mostly badasses. They're mostly... people.

Also, the Badass Army page has THIS. No Real Life Examples, Please!. There's way too many of them to count.

I will admit I missed that. However, which armies qualify can be contested, and furthermore:

The Badass Army is made of 100% badasses and there is absolutely nothing that can stop them short of overwhelming numbers or an even better Badass Army. There is not a single soldier who can not hold his own in a fight. They are extremely likely to be all, or mostly, super soldiers and have a high likelihood to have been raised in The Spartan Way. They will not use Hollywood Tactics like amateurs.

This is also part of the entry.


But you know what? I'm stopping. It's very late and no matter what happens nothing's gonna change in the trope page. You think they're a badass army? Fine.

edited 13th Jan '13 7:42:58 AM by fillerdude

probablyinsane Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
#148: Jan 13th 2013 at 8:00:56 AM

The death rate is high because of they are up against a really really really dangerous enemy.

The Titans are not only BIG and STRONG. They are FAST and can recover from headshots.

Also, the humans don't have magical powers. And the tech-level is medieval.

The members of the Scouting League are not dying like flies nor failing because they're incompetent. It's because their enemy is really really tough.

You cannot say an army is only badass when it wins all or most of its battles. The strongest army is the one which keeps on fighting when the odds are against it. It's the ones which do not surrender.

Again, the best example is probably the British during WWII.

Edit: If someone still tries to argue otherwise, I will just post something by Winston Churchill.

edited 13th Jan '13 8:03:53 AM by probablyinsane

Plants are aliens, and fungi are nanomachines.
fillerdude Since: Jul, 2010
#149: Jan 13th 2013 at 8:04:15 AM

[up] And a Badass Army as per trope definition will involve soldiers who can kill a lot of Titans despite all those disadvantages.

I'm not even disagreeing with you that they're badass. They are. They just don't fit the trope.

probablyinsane Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
#150: Jan 13th 2013 at 8:08:26 AM

[up] (sighs)

The Scouting League does kill a lot of Titans. Do I have to list down the kills of Rivaille's squad?

In the latest chapters, those seniors probably took out 10 per person.

And during the "running across the plains arc" the regulars did okay (even on mostly flat ground) until the Female-Type Titan showed up.

edited 13th Jan '13 8:09:05 AM by probablyinsane

Plants are aliens, and fungi are nanomachines.

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