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Shingeki no Kyojin/Attack on Titan (Manga Discussion)

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Wispy Since: Feb, 2017
#13726: Jan 18th 2021 at 5:19:37 PM

[up]That would be interesting. Those three had 3 titan powers at once I think so they'd have pretty unique Titan forms.

Also makes me wonder if Ymir's Titan form might appear at some point too.

Lyendith Since: Mar, 2011
#13727: Jan 18th 2021 at 5:26:52 PM

Wow there… was that a comedic moment I saw in the middle of the chap? evil grin

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#13728: Jan 19th 2021 at 2:07:57 PM

Something I think is supposed to be true, but don't know if it's ever been brought up here - is the reason that certain noble bloodlines in the walls couldn't be affected by the Founding Titan's power because they weren't People of Ymir?

Apparently there are some scenes that establish that even now, there are still some Eldians in the current day that aren't descendent from Ymir and thus don't think it's fair that they get the same treatment as the "devils". Plus, one of those guys that Zackly was torturing mentioned most of the people in the walls having "slave blood".

So is the implication there that the nobles know the whole story about what happened?

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#13729: Jan 19th 2021 at 3:17:07 PM

@LSBK It's confusing because the chapter I read called them a different breed of Eldians but still Eldians.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#13730: Jan 19th 2021 at 3:46:19 PM

Huh so we're 6 episodes in and we already covered 3 volumes. I got every volume up to 29.

Season started on volume 23 and with the recent episode 6 we are right at the end of volume 25, with just a couple pages left.

Episodes 5 & 6 covered like 98% of vol 25 with little to no content cut, so episodes 7 & 8 should cover vol 26 leaving us at the halfway point of a 16 episode season.

So yeah depending on how the rest of this is adapted we should make it to volume 30 by the end which contains Gabi shooting Eren and him reaching the Paths with Zeke.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#13731: Jan 20th 2021 at 2:43:27 PM

So when the manga was at the point the anime was at now, what were you thinking: did you agree with Eren's course of action or were you still waiting until after to make a judgement?

Because from what I'm seeing a lot of people seem to not realize how much Eren has actually deviated from what the Paradis forces were actually trying to do with to do with all of this.

Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#13732: Jan 20th 2021 at 2:48:28 PM

I was waiting; tbh, striking at the military command just as soon as war was declared, and not before, was quite justified. And the civilian deaths were treated with the proper gravitas.

But yeah, Eren as we knew him was gone when he touched Historia, we just didn't know yet.

danime91 Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#13733: Jan 20th 2021 at 3:29:41 PM

My theory is that the noble bloodlines were nobility or royalty from other countries that were conquered or joined the Eldian Empire willingly. Either that, or they're descended from Eldians that during the early days of the Empire never intermarried with Ymir's descendants, making a race of Eldians that are not "Children of Ymir".

Which makes sense because one of the primary uses of Subjects of Ymir if you weren't a member of the Nine Families would have been as disposable human weapons. The nobility probably didn't want any of that.

Edited by danime91 on Jan 20th 2021 at 3:32:48 AM

OmegaRadiance Since: Jun, 2011
#13734: Jan 20th 2021 at 3:37:36 PM

This also has horrible implications for how they propagated from three daughters to millions.

Along with some some also terrible implications of the male descandanfs who took after King Fritz.

And yeah I agree attacking after Willy declared war is still justified. They had been put in a situation where no matter what the rest of the world was going to go after them, the only difference is that Willy sought to create Martyrs in the ome he envisioned.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Jan 20th 2021 at 3:37:59 AM

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#13735: Jan 20th 2021 at 3:40:29 PM

It was hilariously pragmatic.

You can tell Eren was waiting for the perfect excuse to eat the asshole. [lol]

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
danime91 Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#13736: Jan 20th 2021 at 3:43:37 PM

[up][up]I took it that the whole "forcing women of conquered territories to bear their children" was at least partially true.

Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#13737: Jan 20th 2021 at 3:56:09 PM

I mean, Genghis Khan is the direct patrilineal ancestor of 0.5% of the men in the world (and of 8% of the men in the area the Mongol Empire spanned; this is based on Y-chromosome data, so the number of total descendants is likely higher). We don't hold those people accountable from the stuff the Mongol Empire pulled off.

OmegaRadiance Since: Jun, 2011
#13738: Jan 20th 2021 at 4:13:43 PM

Considering King Fritz treatment of his daughters and Ymir, I wouldn't be surprised if the legacy was forcing other people to rape the initial females Fritzes as baby factories.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Jan 20th 2021 at 4:14:00 AM

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
Ninety Absolutely no relation to NLK from Land of Quakes and Hills Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
Absolutely no relation to NLK
#13739: Jan 20th 2021 at 4:56:58 PM

At the point the anime is in, it seems as if the Corps and Eren are still working together entirely. It's only after the attack is done that we really know he's gone rogue irreversibly.

Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.
Ninety Absolutely no relation to NLK from Land of Quakes and Hills Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
Absolutely no relation to NLK
#13740: Jan 22nd 2021 at 2:19:32 PM

Dang it, had a big draft but lost it on an involuntary refresh. Oh well. Some thoughts on the morality of the various main characters' plans to deal with the Eldian-Marley conflict. Disclaimer: genocide is bad. Hope I didn't sear off any noses with that blazing hot take. Anyway.

I had been spoiled a bit on the plot point of "Eren turns heel and becomes the bad guy" before reading the manga, but I had no clue how well executed it was gonna be. It would have been so easy to just make it a standard overblown villainous revenge plot — Eren was always an angry hothead — but Isayama goes to great lengths to show that Eren isn't motivated by revenge but by necessity, hence his talk with Reiner at the festival. The cycle of conflict between Eldians and non-Eldians (Marleyans in particular) is central to the conflict, and crucially, by the time of the plot (especially post-timeskip) it's an inescapable reality. There's no third option or compromise left after Tybur's declaration of war and Eren's attack on Liberio, and practically none beforehand. It isn't immediately apparent at the start, but as shown through flashbacks (another particularly well-executed bit of narrative — doing a timeskip and showing the time between with flashbacks is often dodgy, but it's done excellently here), the Paradis alliance's options start as few and only shrink from there. An analogy I saw was that Tybur's conference was akin to listening to the UN and NATO's international officials clapping and crying with joy at the notion of the extermination of a racial group. Even before that (chronologically, not narratively), when the Paradis crew go to see the conference of the pro-Eldian rights groups and discover that the equivalent of bleeding-heart hippies are still advocating for their genocide, just to let non-Paradis Eldians live, the reality of the situation gets more and more undeniable. Hell, even after resolving to stop the Rumbling, the alliance are fully aware that they're sealing their own doom — if Eren is stopped, there will be no quarter for Eldians anywhere from the survivors. It's Paradis or the world, and Eren chooses the former.

Crucially, though, his decision isn't sugarcoated or minimized in any way. We spend several chapters seeing the impact the R Umbling has, both on Eren's psyche and the millions of innocents being murdered through no fault of their own (the scene with the cliff and the baby is absolutely incredible). I know there's people who still think that Eren's decision is justified, and the story ensures that it's clear he doesn't want to do it and was pushed into it by having absolutely no recourse outside of it that wouldn't result in his home and his people being slaughtered — but that's little consolation to the people of the world who are brutally killed despite the vast majority having little to do with the oppression of Eldians save, at most, tacit approval. In the end, Eren shot first, and his hands are stained with the blood of millions, even if he had no choice.

Enter Zeke. Eren's antithesis in every way. Zeke's plan is called the euthanasia plan, and with good reason — rather than violent murder, it's more akin to a pillow over the face. It's still genocide, mind you — even if you don't subscribe to the inclusion of mass sterilization in the definition (and I've seen some who do), the Eldians will still have the power of the Founder up until they all die of old age so it's quite likely that Marley would eventually go to Paradis and slaughter everyone there after a few decades when they're too old to defend themselves. But viewed through a purely utilitarian lens, it's a plan that makes some sense. If you take the maxim that as long as the power of the Titans exists, nations will use it to oppress and subjugate each other (and the story certainly supports that thesis), then Zeke's plan is likely to be the one that will result in the least innocent casualties overall. If you look at it from the outside, a plan that'll only prevent more people from being born and likely result in the indirect deaths of less than a million people is far preferable than one that'll get a billion people, most of them innocent, killed. It's arguable that Zeke's plan is the more moral of the two by far. (Again, still genocide, but the lesser one.)

And yet, Zeke is to me one of the most detestable characters on the series. Maybe it's just because as part of the narrative, we have the luxury to apply deontology to his actions — and Zeke's motives are hardly altruistic. It's hinted at throughout, but shown most clearly in his flashbacks with Xavier — Zeke simply hates himself, and all Eldians by proxy, taking them down with him in a sort of racial murder-suicide. His rationale that if no more Eldians are born, they'll be spared the horrors of the world, is blatantly self-serving justifications — note how he only reaches that conclusion after his self-loathing of selling out his parents is at its peak. Also, remember how the Beast Titan had a gag ranking of 10/10 cruelty? When Zeke is on Paradis, he takes pleasure in inflicting pain and misery onto the Paradisian Eldians — turning the citizens of Rarako into mindless Titans, essentially murdering them, leaving Niles to be eaten alive, doing fucking baseball poses while slaughtering the Scouts — while mentally justifying himself by saying he's saving them. Saving them from pain by brutally killing them, that's a big brain move right there. Zeke is, in brief, a self-loathing-driven manchild who wants to put all Eldians out of his misery — not unlike Willy Tybur and Karl Fritz, minus the manchild bit potentially. And the shallowness of his motivations is laid bare when he visits the Paths with Eren and Eren coldly tells it like it is — Eren is not Zeke's cute little brother to be saved from the evil Grisha's brainwashing, but someone who made his own choices (even retroactively, thanks to Paths) and Grisha truly regretted how he treated Zeke and tried to atone by giving Eren a normal childhood (up until the whole murder thing, but that was nobody's fault really). Zeke's worldview comes crumbling down as Eren rebuffs him and Grisha apologizes, but even then he tries to order Ymir to carry out his plan only to be foiled by Eren showing her basic human decency. It's a damn fitting bit of karma for someone who never saw those he was killing as people, unlike Eren.

But again, the innocents being crushed to death wouldn't exactly care that Eren felt real bad about it and the alternative plan that would've kept them safe at the cost of the Eldian race was motivated by self-loathing and cruelty rather than altruism. And yet, judging the morality of the opposing genocidal plans by the death toll is incomplete. I'm far from the first to make this connection, but it plays out like a modified trolley problem, where Eren refused to let the lever be pulled. Of course it gets a lot more complicated than that — one million of your loved ones and your people versus one billion of people who at best don't care and mostly want you and yours dead. At what point does the magnitude of the numbers start influencing the morality of the choice? And what about the collateral? Non-Paradis Eldians are getting crushed by the Rumbling all the same, and there were no few casualties within Paradis as the walls crumbled. On the other hand, the Marleyans and the other outside nations were planning on attacking Paradis (really, in the middle of it) and had done so previously — if some of the ones tied down tried to kill you, would you be inclined to pull the lever and let your people die for the sake of the hundreds of millions that didn't? The alliance does, Eren doesn't. I think the natural choice as an outside viewer (and the one that the story by and large takes, at least framing-wise — it's the remaining heroes fighting to save innocents, after all) is that there's just no justification for mass murder on such a scale, but then even complete assholes like Floch command a little bit of sympathy due to the fact that, again, the alternative is annihilation, which the Alliance knows. This is what really makes the story engaging — even though what he's doing is, by most standards, extremely evil, Eren has a very good justification for it and it's not surprising that many in the fandom agree with him. (That he becomes cool and competent as hell sure doesn't hurt. Also the 10-pack.) Zeke's "more humane genocide" (what a phrase) by contrast isn't truly being done to stop the cycle of violence so much as to assuage his own hatred for himself, his father and his people, and he ends up being instrumental to the worst possible outcome for his ideals.

This is running really long and I have a lot more to say, so I'll leave it for another post. Preview: fuck the Tyburs, fuck Karl Fritz and fuck the first King. (Sorry if this came out disjointed, I had a draft open that I wrote on through different days so my thoughts are all over the place.)

Dopants: He meant what he said and he said what he meant, a Ninety is faithful 100%.
OmegaRadiance Since: Jun, 2011
#13741: Jan 22nd 2021 at 2:32:50 PM

Something people have also been noticing is that Eren in his child form is up in the sky having the time of his life, and his head is unconscious. Like its beinf directed by someone else

Meanwhile all the titans, from the ones puppet Zeke is making to protect the Founder, and the Wall Titans, is being underseen by Ymir. Including protecting the Founder andnthe slaughter of everyone.

There's generally been a theory that Eren has given up his freedom to Ymir in exchange for granting him his wish. And the more we see, the more I think people aren't wrong.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Jan 22nd 2021 at 2:33:30 AM

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#13742: Jan 22nd 2021 at 2:37:52 PM

This is what really makes the story engaging — even though what he's doing is, by most standards, extremely evil, Eren has a very good justification for it and it's not surprising that many in the fandom agree with him.

I'd agree that's not surprising, but I doubt most people have put as much thought into this as you have. Many people are just looking for an excuse to consider as much slaughter and murder as "mature" and "justifiable" because edginess.

It's really not a surprise "Eren is right" would have a popular following, especially since Attack On Titan itself seems like the kind of series predisposed for that kind of following to begin with.

harostar Since: Feb, 2010
#13743: Jan 22nd 2021 at 5:51:39 PM

For all his missteps and faults over the wild ride that is Attack on Titan, I think Isayama has crafted an utterly brilliant narrative with no easy answers or solutions. Much like the real world, he's presented us with conflicts that cannot be easily solved, managing to present people on all sides of the conflict that are simply.....people, for better or worse. There are terrible assholes, Punch-Clock Villain types that take part in evil things but are also capable of nuanced portrayal, complete innocents, and everything in between.

He's taken us from the most basic "People versus Mindless Monsters" story into a cruel, painful, complicated mess of a narrative about the human condition. Peeling away the layers bit by bit, showing us how the villains are people with their own complex motivations and even making our heroes into villains or morally-grey characters. Everyone has gotten their hands dirty, none of them are completely innocent anymore, and there are no easy answers to their problems. There is no guide book, and no veterans to tell them what to do.

I guess the hope is that the World War II metaphors conclude with the Rumbling serving like the Nuclear bombs. Something that shocks the entire world, that makes humanity realize just how close we've come to destroying ourselves, and commit to trying to find another way.

Because as said above, there are really no people that are safe from the Rumbling. Eren has caused devastation on Paradis, caused the deaths of his own comrades such as Hanji, and killed people of many nations who may or may not have any personal stake or opinion on the central conflict.

doineedaname from Eastern US Since: Nov, 2010
#13744: Jan 22nd 2021 at 6:26:45 PM

[up] As far as the ending and metaphor goes, I'd seen some posts I found insightful and pushed me towards the hope that it ends with the Rumbling completing.

It's a cautionary tale. And in this cautionary tale, we have the story of Eren. His freedom could've been achieved without killing people if the world would've just tried to talk. That's the whole point of the story, talk before it's too late. That's why I prefer an ending with Eren completing the Rumbling because it was too late the moment Tybur portrayed Eren as a devil.

Some Marleyan survivors having regrets as they are about to be stomped to death by the devil they created is not this "change of heart" moment for the entire world that sets up for an eventual peace ending as many people seem to take it as. It could be sure, but I doubt it because of the overarching theme that keeps popping up about how they "never tried to talk".

I will to this day say that peace or hell even discussions amongst the people of this world are a false hope. Via the recent discovery of the possible "kill switch" of destroying the source of all organic matter / the weird titan parasite itself, the only possible solution of Alliance victory shifted rather heavily from Armin talking being the solution, and instead the path towards victory becoming not diplomacy but violence.

Inside this story violence is the only option presented that leads to results. It's the source and solution to all problems. The biggest time I ever recall talking worked out for a problem presented was when EREN of all people managed to talk Ymir out of listening exclusively to what the royal line tells her to do. And he did so with the goal of utterly destroying everything outside of Paradise.

Even the formation of the Alliance is very clearly only possible because of Erens actions and not because of some sort of deep conversation or mutual understanding from both sides. This realization of the Marleyan survivors itself has only become a possibility because they have come face to face with a wave of devils literally about to stomp them all to death.

Thus, I very much could see an ending where Muller tries his best to unite his people with a rousing speech and stop them from fighting amongst each other only for it to amount to nothing ultimately since either they don't listen to him or they all die at the hands of Eren anyway. Grim as hell as well as depressing sure, but a distinct possibility nonetheless in my mind. A cautionary tale of violence being a never ending circle seems fitting as the overall message of the story to me.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#13745: Jan 24th 2021 at 10:32:09 AM

Here's a video talking about a specific way that Attack On Titan approaches story-telling that doesn't get much focus on.

I really like this guy's videos, he does mostly My Hero Academia, but he also talks about other popular/series he likes too. I'd recommend checking him out.

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#13746: Jan 25th 2021 at 1:09:01 PM

@doindee The problem with Eren actually completing the Rumbling and achieving his "freedom" is that it then positions Eren as right and that a one race fascist state is the way to go for a utopia.

The only way that you could have Eren win and not push that idealogy forward is if Paradis enters a civil war after Eren wins and humanity dies out because of Eren's actions.

But that's not what Isayama is going with according to Isayama himself. He's said he's switched from the Mist-like ending he had in his head originally to a more peaceful ending because of Guardians of the Galaxy.

Edited by MadSkillz on Jan 25th 2021 at 1:13:33 AM

Lyendith Since: Mar, 2011
#13747: Jan 25th 2021 at 1:32:32 PM

Provided he hasn’t changed his mind again since then. tongue

[up][up] Interesting… one that struck me especially hard was the micro-plot with the middle-eastern kids. It told us that Eren was still Eren but also that he was lost for good.

Edited by Lyendith on Jan 25th 2021 at 10:49:03 AM

OmegaRadiance Since: Jun, 2011
#13748: Jan 25th 2021 at 2:08:33 PM

Erens clearly given up his Freedom to Ymir as everything has been implying with Ymir directing and controlling the Wall atitans, an unconscious Founder Titan still operating when sleeping Erens head is kept together solely by a Spine, and the Shifter Titans.

Plus based on how dehumanized they made it, it was always going to boil down to one Fascist State vs the next because of King Fritz, Marley, and the Tyburs actions, who also want to dominate the world as the master Fascist State no matter what and tricked the entire world into enabling them to do so.

Its a fucked if you do, fucked if you don't Fascist Wet Dream.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Jan 25th 2021 at 2:11:20 AM

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#13749: Jan 25th 2021 at 2:38:14 PM

@Omega Well considering how the story's been done since Eren declared his genocode of every nation that's not Paradis, it seems to be setting up a reconciliation between the Eldians and Marleyans.

You have a conglomerate of different people that's anti-Eren that can be seen as a microcosm of the world. Some of them Paradisians, Asian, Marleyan Eldians, Marleyans themselves etc.

And we just had group of Marleyans saying that if they could do it over again, they'd act differently knowing now what the consequences were.

And right now we have a confrontation of Eldians and Marleyans pointing guns at each other with a gunshot going off off-page so we can be left to wonder whether they're gonna work together or kill each other in the face of an apocalypse (they clearly are gonna work together) until the next chapter or two.

This is the "Currently Publicly Available Information" from Episode 59 too:

It is evident that the world perceives us as a 'race of devils.' The people of our world wish to eradicate us 'Subjects of Ymir.' However, we must not simply wait for our extermination to come about. As long as we live, we must strive to ensure our survival and our efforts to prevail must never cease. However, is a display of power enough to frighten the world our only method of doing so? Is there no other option than flaunting the very power we possess, the Power of the Titans, that makes the world believe we are devils? Is it delusional to think we could all sit around the same table and talk? I want to think it possible, even if it seems an idealistic view. I believe coming up with a better way is my duty, and so I must never turn away from thinking about it.

OmegaRadiance Since: Jun, 2011
#13750: Jan 25th 2021 at 2:40:56 PM

What little is left of the Marleyans, of which there will be few. Weve already know Eren has wiped out nearly all of Marley, and it took being faced with their imminent death to have a Heel Realization.

And the problem is that Fascism, by its nature, rejects reality to embrace extremely comservative and close minded views. There was no hope of trying to bridge a gap that a Fascist state like Marey facilitates, and whose "Solution" was to continue enabling their fascist attitude by wiping out the people of Paradis.

Communication does not work with the far-right, and any attempts to do so ends in failure, and that in turn perpetuates the cycle of violence that Eren has to ironically give up his freedom to ensure everyone he knows can have theirs against it.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Jan 25th 2021 at 2:49:31 AM

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.

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