TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Longevity of bone

Go To

kassyopeia from terrae nullius Since: Nov, 2010
#1: Aug 28th 2012 at 10:27:37 AM

As I mentioned here, my humanoids use bone rather than metal for their coinage. Specifically, centimetre-thick slices sawed from the antlers of deer.

Does anyone have any idea how long would such a coin would last, if it's handled several times a day? I dug up some pictures via google, if that helps: one, two, three. I'd guess the middle portion is a lot softer than the outer one and wears away quickly, if it's not been removed during the "minting" process in the first place. That's not a problem; on the contrary, it means people can thread their money onto cords and wear them as necklaces or something, which is not uncommon in terrestrial societies at the level of development I have in mind.

So, how long would the outer ring of "compact bone" last? I'm thinking centuries rather than decades or millenia, based on what little I know of bone-handled knives and wearing down of teeth in some herbivore species. Does that sound about right?

Soon the Cold One took flight, yielded Goddess and field to the victor: The Lord of the Light.
MattII Since: Sep, 2009
#2: Aug 28th 2012 at 1:36:36 PM

That's fine if you only have a couple of denominations, be doesn't really work otherwise.

Of course you really need a central government of some sort to enforce the concept that, yes this coin does have that value.

edited 28th Aug '12 1:47:59 PM by MattII

Belisaurius Since: Feb, 2010
#3: Aug 28th 2012 at 1:43:47 PM

In theory, bone can last decades if not centuries. Bones don't rot or rust so the only forces that could destroy bone are external.

kassyopeia from terrae nullius Since: Nov, 2010
#4: Aug 28th 2012 at 1:51:50 PM

[up][up] I wasn't going to have any concept of denominations at all, but a direct dependence of value on a physical parameter of the coin. Like humans used to weigh money (thus, the British "pound" (of) Sterling (silver), et cetera), but maybe something a little less clumsy.

For example, a coin one finger across could be the currency unit, and the value doubles for each additional finger. If the antlers of the biggest deer in my world are ten fingers across, that would yield a nice value range, 1 thru 2^10 ~ 1,000. If there are antlers twenty fingers across, the upper end goes to 2^20 ~ 1,000,000, which is probably excessive, so an exponential dependence might be a bit TOO non-linear... but something in that vein.

As to hunting to extinction, I've already taken that into account. It's addressed in the post I linked to in the OP. smile

ETA: On second thought, I could have two denominations, "slices" and "tips", with tips being the more valuable because there are fewer of them per antler. But that doesn't really work all that well in concert with the "physical parameter" idea. Needs more pondering.

edited 28th Aug '12 1:58:04 PM by kassyopeia

Soon the Cold One took flight, yielded Goddess and field to the victor: The Lord of the Light.
MattII Since: Sep, 2009
#5: Aug 28th 2012 at 1:56:43 PM

Yes, but currency is only useful if it has a universally agreed value, which is why the word 'barter' has two meanings, and why nomads and cavemen don't use currency.

Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#6: Aug 28th 2012 at 2:00:01 PM

Matt, please don't tell him that he can't do what he wants with his currency system just because it doesn't work that way in our world. There are more than a few currency systems in fiction that wouldn't work in reality, but they serve the story quite well. He's asking about the durability of horn, not the fine points of economic theory.

kassyopeia from terrae nullius Since: Nov, 2010
#7: Aug 28th 2012 at 2:42:04 PM

4[up] Properly stored, bone can last at least as long as it takes for it to begin to petrify, which is, what, tens of thousands of years? Hundreds? Millions of years, perhaps? Surely, though, being used as everyday currency is quite a long way away from being properly stored. tongue

2[up] I figure that if the rate of coinage is fairly constant, which I'm positing it to be, then that together with the longevity of the coins gives me the total amount of money in the system at any given time. With that setup, inflation and deflation should be physically impossible, more or less. If that's true, appropriate valuation of the currency unit should occur quite naturally, no?

[up] Bone, not horn. Deer and other cervids have bony antlers (no keratin involved), while antelopes and other bovids have horny horns (keratin layer on top of bone). According to the other wiki, that is. smile

Soon the Cold One took flight, yielded Goddess and field to the victor: The Lord of the Light.
TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#8: Aug 28th 2012 at 4:20:02 PM

Keep in mind we still find bone artifacts from some time ago. Items that were handled on a regular basis like tools and personal decoration. Bone like antlers, tusks, and teeth can be quite durable and lasting provided you prepare the material correctly.

edited 28th Aug '12 6:33:54 PM by TuefelHundenIV

Who watches the watchmen?
MattII Since: Sep, 2009
#9: Aug 28th 2012 at 4:51:40 PM

Matt, please don't tell him that he can't do what he wants with his currency system just because it doesn't work that way in our world. There are more than a few currency systems in fiction that wouldn't work in reality, but they serve the story quite well.
So you mean he should be content to sit in with a lot of unthinking Tolkien plagiarists? Also, I'm not telling him he can't do stuff, just that it would be unrealistic.

If that's true, appropriate valuation of the currency unit should occur quite naturally, no?
Not really, unless you have a government of some sort to enforce on its people that a one finger coin is, at this time, worth a bag of grain weighing one nult (or whatever you wish to call it). Without a government or other form of economic controlling factor (maybe a treaty of some sort) then currency doesn't make a great deal of sense. Of course, it would be possible to make a sort of pre-government currency, but it would have to be based around something:
1. Useful/desirable
2. Not easy to acquire/manufacture
3. Eventually disposable (although it would have to last a certain amount of time, say months at least, but probably not more than a couple of years).

Your bone coins fulfill points 2 and 3, but not point 1, unless you can think of another use for the things, say as a spice when they're ground up.

edited 28th Aug '12 4:55:54 PM by MattII

stingerbrg Since: Jun, 2009
#10: Aug 28th 2012 at 5:15:08 PM

Bone/antler currency can be explained by it starting with trading points and/or handles, and over time the practice just evolved into using small disks. It doesn't need government enforcement or intrinsic value on it's own in its current form.

As for the question, the bone currency probably wouldn't last as long as metal currency does if it's handled the same amount. At the very least it'd require different storage conditions, because even if bone can last a long time and become fossilized, that's actually pretty rare.

Matues Since: Sep, 2011
#11: Aug 28th 2012 at 5:32:20 PM

[up][up]

Well, it is possible for people to arrive at their own ideas of how much something is worth.

A dollar is a dollar is a dollar.

The government doesn't have to say that a pound of flour is worth a dollar. People make that decision based on how much they want it and how much money they have.

Of course, I'm possibly wrong. Economic Theory is not my strong point.

kassyopeia from terrae nullius Since: Nov, 2010
#12: Aug 28th 2012 at 6:14:31 PM

Keep in mind we still find bone artifacts from some time ago. Items that were handled on a regular basis like tools and personal decoration. Bone like antlers, tusks, and teeth can be quite durable and lasting [...]

Agreed. Unless I'm mixing things up in my head, bone handles do show wear marks, though - they get shinier and/or stained where they are in frequent contact with skin. Which could mean that the surface is actually being worn away by a combination of mechanical friction and skin acidity, something along those lines. Or it could just mean that the surface is porous and absorbs skin secretions which make it feel and look different. Even if it is the former, that's too qualitative an observation to be of much use, it seems to me.

[...] provided you prepare the matrial correctly.

Would you happen to know anything more specific about this (pretty please)?

Soon the Cold One took flight, yielded Goddess and field to the victor: The Lord of the Light.
kassyopeia from terrae nullius Since: Nov, 2010
#13: Aug 28th 2012 at 6:28:44 PM

[...] a bag of grain weighing one nult (or whatever you wish to call it).

That would be "a bag of flour weighing one fant", if you mean a bag in the human hundredweight range. Flour is ground flourcane, though, they don't have any grain.

Of course, it would be possible to make a sort of pre-government currency, but it would have to be based around something:

Yes, that's what I have in mind. There is government, after a fashion, at a local and regional level, but the level of civilization isn't high enough for them to think of money as anything more than tokens which make bartering more convenient, I'm thinking.

Your bone coins fulfill points 2 and 3, but not point 1, unless you can think of another use for the things, say as a spice when they're ground up.

As I suggested in the OP, they'd be worn as decorative accessories to show off one's wealth. Having lots of coins to wear confers status. Is that sufficient to qualify for point 1, do you think?

Soon the Cold One took flight, yielded Goddess and field to the victor: The Lord of the Light.
MattII Since: Sep, 2009
#14: Aug 28th 2012 at 6:49:30 PM

Well, it is possible for people to arrive at their own ideas of how much something is worth.
Yes, and if someone (say a supermarket chain) is willing to sell for cheaper then they'll sell more than the guy who's trying to sell for a higher price. Of course for that to happen you really want a society more advanced that a stone-age one.

That would be "a bag of flour weighing one fant", if you mean a bag in the human hundredweight range. Flour is ground flourcane, though, they don't have any grain.
It was just a general concept so show why a government is important in the development of currency.

There is government, after a fashion, at a local and regional level, but the level of civilization isn't high enough for them to think of money as anything more than tokens which make bartering more convenient, I'm thinking.
That's the kind of thing I was thinking of actually, because it's basically what money is, a government-backed (and thus universally accepted) token that allows for example, a carpenter to buy a shirt from the tailor, even though he doesn't have the lump of meat which is what the tailor is actually interested in, since the tailor can trade the tokens the carpenter pays him for the shirt to then trade to the hunter for the meat.

Of course it helps if the tokens can be made fairly standardised.

edited 28th Aug '12 6:55:30 PM by MattII

TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#15: Aug 28th 2012 at 7:22:18 PM

I know some of the process involves at least stripping off the matrial that will rot like the marrow and other soft tissues. Long bones are preferred because of the material. You dry the bones out by leaving them open to the air, setting them near a fire, or setting in direct sunlight.

Bone cones could have intricate carvings or be made from specific animals teeth or prominent bone or horn items.

here are some examples of the bone tools and their known uses

The filter wall i am behind prevents me from digging up some more useful information just vague info. I will bring you something when I get home.

Who watches the watchmen?
kassyopeia from terrae nullius Since: Nov, 2010
#16: Aug 28th 2012 at 7:36:31 PM

[...] it's basically what money is, a government-backed (and thus universally accepted) token [...]

Obviously, I agree that either government-backing or real intrinsic value are somewhat sounder bases for a currency system than the entirely symbolic and trust-based one I have in mind.

In a society in which people know pretty much everyone they deal with, though, I don't see why the latter shouldn't work well enough. The social penalties for not abiding by the amorphous social contract which gives the symbolic currency its value would be too steep to be worth it, it seems to me.

Anyway, unless I'm very much mistaken, there are many (pre)historical precedents for something very similar, though possibly even less organized, on Earth. I distinctly remember reading about sea-shells having been used in just such a manner.

Soon the Cold One took flight, yielded Goddess and field to the victor: The Lord of the Light.
kassyopeia from terrae nullius Since: Nov, 2010
#17: Aug 28th 2012 at 7:43:40 PM

[up][up] Thanks, any specifics would be appreciated. I imagine steps like drying and removing unwanted bits would be relatively simpler for my disks than for large-ish tools.

Soon the Cold One took flight, yielded Goddess and field to the victor: The Lord of the Light.
AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#18: Aug 28th 2012 at 9:23:44 PM

If it's rare enough that people can't just go out on a hunting spree to get much more than what the actual hunt would be cost, then it could work. Of course, that would also have problems with over hunting, which means there will be less around later on.

One thing about how much they're handled, though. People nowdays (well, before credit cards became as common as they are) use money a lot more than they did before (or so I'm told). That means the coins don't have to be as tough.

I'm also thinking that it would be common to use necklaces or bracelets directly to trade with, as groups of "coins".

edited 28th Aug '12 9:24:10 PM by AnotherDuck

Check out my fanfiction!
McKitten Since: Jul, 2012
#19: Aug 29th 2012 at 1:36:41 AM

Drying an the like isn't really necessary if you're using antlers, despite the name "bone" in english, the material is quite different from internal bones (it's almost pure keratin like nails or hair). Despite being very tough compared to other organic tissue however it is still soft compared to stone or metal. Doesn't rot too easily. Still, expect noticeable wear on the coins due to many people handling them, which, without a central bank exchanging old for new, should lead to people valuing them less if they look older (because of the risk they might break, etc). Most likely failure mode of such a cross section would probably be shrinking, i.e. during continuous handling small scales will peel off from the rim. Still, it should be able to be handled by a few thousand people before each coin breaks.

Consider two things though: wild deer being hunted to extinction, and antler farms. Especially farms could be a big problem, because deer produce new antlers every year, making farming very possible. Not that that doesn't even need to involve a lot, just some as large as possible fenced-off section of forest, as many deer as that section can feed/the owner can feed. And going in once a year to collect the shed antlers. The hunting issue might be helped if the deer is considered a holy, untouchable animal so there is a strong religious taboo on killing the. (should still allow the hands-off farming though)

As for central government, keep in mind that civilisation "level" is not something homogenous. The south american cultures for example had highly advanced architecture, quite centralized and organized governments, a much better understanding of astronomy than europeans, no paper and no decent written language, almost no metallurgy, and some used cocoa beans as currency. Not all civilisations progress in the same way.

edited 29th Aug '12 1:42:06 AM by McKitten

kassyopeia from terrae nullius Since: Nov, 2010
#20: Aug 29th 2012 at 4:28:25 AM

If it's rare enough that people can't just go out on a hunting spree to get much more than what the actual hunt would be cost, then it could work. Of course, that would also have problems with over hunting, which means there will be less around later on.

As explained in the thread linked in the OP, my humanoids are a lot smaller than humans, whereas the other animals are not. A large bear is the size of a T-Rex, relatively speaking. Thus, even with a spear, the humanoid doesn't automatically become the apex predator in my setting. That makes the wilderness which the deer live in a dangerous place to be. Only skilled hunters and rangers can survive there at all, and my society doesn't produce enough of those to cause an inflation or decimate the prey. That's the idea, anyway.

One thing about how much they're handled, though. People nowdays (well, before credit cards became as common as they are) use money a lot more than they did before (or so I'm told). That means the coins don't have to be as tough.

True enough. I haven't really thought about, in detail, what money would be used for other than the weekly markets ("trysts") in the capital of the region ("league"). Village life has its fair share of primitive communism, so "several times a day" may have been an overestimate.

I'm also thinking that it would be common to use necklaces or bracelets directly to trade with, as groups of "coins".

Nice thought! Realistically, that should lead to substituting another kind of rarer token for a sort of standard necklace, since those would become cumbersome at some point. But I can simply posit that that is something that will happen but hasn't happened yet, it seems to me. Thanks! smile

Soon the Cold One took flight, yielded Goddess and field to the victor: The Lord of the Light.
kassyopeia from terrae nullius Since: Nov, 2010
#21: Aug 30th 2012 at 3:32:44 PM

Okay, I came across a related issue which should yield an order of magnitude estimate here:

Elephant

[...] The fifth set of chewing teeth (molars) lasts until the elephant is in its early 40s. The sixth (and usually final) set must last the elephant the rest of its life. If an elephant lives to more than 60 years of age, the last set of molars is worn to stumps, and it can no longer feed properly. Moss reports a female elephant in its sixties whose final set of molars were worn smooth and about one-quarter of their original size and who survived "with extra chewing and longer feeding bouts."

[...]

Elephants are herbivores and spend up to 16 hours a day eating plants.

I estimate the wear rate of elephant teeth as about 1 cm per decade, based on that description and their size. Of course, chewing causes a lot more wear than handling. On the other hand, tooth enamel is a lot harder than bone, so I'm just going to suppose that those two differences cancel each other out.

Elephants eat for about 1,000 minutes per day, money is handled for on the order of 1 minute per day (a few times, each lasting somewhere between a second and a minute). This would mean a wear rate for my coins of 1 mm per millennium. Since the coins are 1 cm thick, that gives them a lifetime on the order of a millennium, too, since wear occurs from all sides and they'd break once they get a lot thinner.

Thus, the amount of money present at a given time is about a thousand times the amount of antler the hunters provide per year. I'd estimate the latter as 10 grams per person, based on the amount of deer meat consumption and the hunters' productivity I'm envisioning. Which means each person would, on average, own 10 kg of money - their body-weight in money, as it happens.

That seems rather excessive to me, both because it's impractical enough to force them to come up with an equivalent of banknotes, and because of the proverbial "I'll reward you with your weight in gold antler", which needs to be the equivalent of a lot more riches than an average person has to have the intended impact.

Looks like my original idea isn't going to work out as-is, then. Any suggestions?

edited 30th Aug '12 3:34:31 PM by kassyopeia

Soon the Cold One took flight, yielded Goddess and field to the victor: The Lord of the Light.
Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#22: Aug 30th 2012 at 7:43:10 PM

Well, the first problem I see with your assumption is that the money would be equally distributed among all the people. It almost certainly won't be.

The second I see is that you're assuming that day-to-day wear is the only factor removing 'coins' from circulation. It won't be.

  • Wear from use will be unevenly distributed: the more practical-sized coins/denominations will get used much more than less-useful ones. For instance, in one year, the US mint made less than 1 billion dollar coins, just over 1 billion nickels, about 2.5 billion quarters, and about 8 billion pennies the same year. Dollar coins and nickels simply don't get used as much as quarters and pennies.
  • Coins will be lost — that's one reason the mintage numbers for pennies are so high — people don't worry about losing them.
  • They'll break from being handled roughly.
  • They'll break from internal flaws.
  • If they're worn strung into necklaces, the cord will cause constant low-level abrasion.
  • Some people may hoard them. And hoards that are hidden can be lost if the hoarder dies without revealing the location.
  • They may be used as grave goods, or whatever the death-rite equivalent is (buried or burned or thrown in a lake with a deceased person) either to provide for them in the afterlife or simply as a demonstration of their wealth.

edited 30th Aug '12 7:56:02 PM by Madrugada

kassyopeia from terrae nullius Since: Nov, 2010
#23: Aug 31st 2012 at 7:18:05 AM

Well, the first problem I see with your assumption is that the money would be equally distributed among all the people. It almost certainly won't be.

[...]

Some people may hoard them. And hoards that are hidden can be lost if the hoarder dies without revealing the location.

In this setup, I can't really imagine rich or miserly people wanting to accumulate large amounts of antler. It's a status symbol and valuable, yes, but if there's as much of it around as I've estimated above, then there'd be plenty of other things which would be more significant status symbols and which would be more valuable - the equivalents of gems and silk and spices in our history, say. Simply holding on to as much antler as possible would be akin to Scrooge Mc Duck filling his Money Bin with coins, for the most part - symbolically, it works, practically, it makes no sense.

Coins will be lost — that's one reason the mintage numbers for pennies are so high — people don't worry about losing them.

I can't imagine that as a significant factor, here. Pennies are lost because they are small and they can hide under sofa cushions and roll into storm drains, and, as you say, they are nowadays so insignificant in value that it's barely worthwhile to pick them up again. None of those things apply in my case: Even the smallest coins are still pretty chunky; if dropped, they'd mostly just fall to the ground in plain sight, since there just aren't a lot of places for them to hide indoors, nor artificial holes to fall into outdoors; and even the smallest denomination wouldn't be insignificant, so someone else would pick it up, if not the one who dropped it originally.

They'll break from being handled roughly.
They'll break from internal flaws.
If they're worn strung into necklaces, the cord will cause constant low-level abrasion.

Those are all good points. Any guesses on how to account for them quantitatively?

They may be used as grave goods, or whatever the death-rite equivalent is (buried or burned or thrown in a lake with a deceased person) either to provide for them in the afterlife or simply as a demonstration of their wealth.

Argh, very good point. Funerary rites are one of the few aspects I haven't given any thought to. Time to remedy that! smile

Soon the Cold One took flight, yielded Goddess and field to the victor: The Lord of the Light.
Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#24: Aug 31st 2012 at 7:56:21 AM

Hoarding: Hoarding isn't rational. Even if it makes no sense to hoard, some people will do it. Discs will go into these people's hands at a greater rate than they come back out. If the coins have value or possession of them is a status symbol, they will be hoarded to some degree.

Loss: up in post #4, you're talking about the smallest disks being "one finger across" — That's less than a half-inch in diameter — small. Bone isn't naturally brightly colored. Your world isn't all cleanly paved and tidy; or at least it doesn't sound like it is. Pockets and pouches tear. People don't notice immediately when something that's tiny and lightweight falls through a hole in their pocket.

Try an experiment: go get a few washers, and toss them over your shoulder without watching to see where they land, in an unmowed, grassy area; or in a forest, or even on a gravel lot. See how long it takes you to find them again. The washers are going to be easier to spot than your bone discs, because they're uniform, shiny, and clearly not a natural thing. The "tossing them over your shoulder" is a close approximation of losing them through a hole in a pocket or pouch: you'll have a very general idea of where they should be, but you won't know exactly where they landed.

[n.b: I'm guessing you live in a very urban area. It's amazing what can get lost in untended grass. Or leaves. Or even snow. Anecdata: January of 2011, I lost half of my keyring. It was a black plastic disc, about an inch and a half in diameter, with three keys hanging from it on a metal ring. I was pretty sure I knew the area I'd lost it in: a squarish patch of my lawn that was roughly 25 feet on a side, but was overhung by a big old maple tree. There was about 4 inches of snow on the ground. I finally found it in March, after all the snow had melted. And it wasn't on that patch of ground. It was on the other side of the tree, about 30 feet away from where I was convinced I had dropped it. It was bigger than the largest of your bone discs. It was heavier. It was more visible. It was important that I find it. And it still took me three months before I finally spotted it.]

edited 31st Aug '12 8:00:30 AM by Madrugada

kassyopeia from terrae nullius Since: Nov, 2010
#25: Aug 31st 2012 at 8:37:27 AM

Hoarding: You're right, or course, this would happen to some degree. I'm just thinking that most who are inclined to hoard would hoard other things - food, well-made tools, real valuables. As a sink for currency, this factor would not be zero, but negligible, IMO.

Loss: Not quite sure now what I was thinking in post #4, actually. I was going to make all coins one finger thick, for the sake of durability. Having the smallest coin be no wider than it is thick seems rather odd. Anyway, I have a somewhat different approach in mind now, see below. As to being clean and tidy, I have to admit that my villages and towns are mostly like that, in my head. Halfway between historical reality and deserving of the "Disneyland" epithet, perhaps. And, obviously, these would be the places where money is carried around and used. I don't imagine farmers wearing their "purses" while ploughing a field, or hunters while out hunting. The one situation in which I can easily imagine losing money for good is while travelling from one village/town to the next - especially when the loss isn't noticed right away, as in the case of your keys.

Colouration: Not that I had considered it before, but now that you mention it, I think I quite like the idea of coloured money. Besides making it more interesting and easier to see, it would pre-empt getting that yellow/brown-ish stain which, I reckon, tends to result from skin contact. Bone, being porous, should take and hold pigment quite well, I'd think.

Soon the Cold One took flight, yielded Goddess and field to the victor: The Lord of the Light.

Total posts: 84
Top