I'd say that there are plenty of people willing to fill in for the devil position in Star Wars, but the actual issue is that there is no "light side". There's balance in the web of connections between all things, and there's the dark side of that web (it can be twisted to serve and empower the individual). The only two pieces of Star Wars media to really point that out are A New Hope and The Last Jedi.
The way I see it, part of the issue that can arise is the conventions that Star Wars was built upon tend to operate on simple good vs evil plots.
There's nuances yes but as said here on tumblr
, it's about showing how someone could go bad and how important it is to work to stay good.
But other authors may approch things in a different manner, either because they're interested in exploring their perception of events, or because it more fits their idea of complex, or address something they perceive as a flaw, which isn't necessarily bad, it just works better if they understand the spirit/rules of the work in question.
Edited by Avenger09 on Oct 9th 2024 at 2:05:21 PM
Kreia is definitely an Insufferable Genius kind of person. She thinks she knows more than anyone else and refuses to consider other viewpoints while blaming everyone else when something goes wrong, even if she was one of the major parts of why. The only positive thing that can be said about that attitude of hers is that if you actually make a good point as a counterargument, she acknowledges it.
There was a cut lightsaber training scene which has her actually respond well to a counter point. More of that would probably have helped her come across better.
Say is there an entry for her in Character Perception Evolution?
See, Kreia reacting well to the Exile challenging teachings is one of her character traits that needs more attention because I always saw her as someone who wants to pass on her teaching and for it to be made better. Sure she likes pawns, but she greatly values a student who can challenge their master's teachings and make it their own.
That's her dynamic with the Exile in a nutshell. Sure, she'll ramble on and mock you for trying to show compassion blindly, but stand firm and learn from her and your own mistakes, and she'll respect that. She has no time for push overs, and is a control freak to be sure, but her ultimate desire is for her teachings to be passed down and to be made better.
That's why I've interpreted Kreia has being a Death Seeker and egging on the Exile's growth by becoming Darth Traya again and presenting herself as some big threat to the galaxy and life itself to give her final lesson.
The whole kill the Force thing was a bluff in my opinion, and she's happy and proud if the Light Side Exile defeats her.
Edited by RedHunter543 on Oct 11th 2024 at 12:28:58 AM
"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"I disagree because without it...she has no motivation whatsoever.
It's also a major point that Nihilus and the Exile are Voids in the Force.
She sought them out for this reason.
She likes the Light Side Exile because she wants to prove that without the Force, you're the Übermensch while Nihilus or a Dark Side Exile just makes an argument the Force is needed (and she hates that).
Edited by CharlesPhipps on Oct 10th 2024 at 9:39:36 AM
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.She has motivation to seek out the Exile because like you said the Exile is proof you can live without the force.
But at that point, at least on a Light Side run,(I have never actually done a dark side route in any of the first two Kotor games.) Kreia sees more value in the Exile being a Jedi and taking Kreia's teachings to reform the Jedi, Kreia has a very complicated view on the Force, and I think she's aware that if you kill the Force, it'll kill everyone else.
Granted, you could argue Kreia just wants to do a The Magic Goes Away on the galaxy and prevent any new Force Sensitives from rising. So no Jedi, but no Sith either.
"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"Kreia's a more sympathetic character if you interpret everything she's doing as a massive existential crisis. She's uncertain about life because being a Jedi didn't work out for her, and being a Sith really didn't work out for her. Her blaming the Force is her lashing out at the institutions that promised certainty of some kind only to not deliver.
Kreia latches on to the Exile since she sees in the Exile someone who can potentially give her the answers that have eluded her. That and / or closure.
Kreia's actually a lot like Anakin Skywalker, being someone who ultimately didn't fit well in the Jedi or the Sith. And like Anakin, both ultimately find a measure of peace at the end of their lives thanks to a personal bond. For Anakin it was his son Luke. For Kreia it was the Exile.
Edited by M84 on Oct 11th 2024 at 12:47:17 AM
Disgusted, but not surprisedDo you think another reason why people hate Kreia because she has a firm grasp on rhetoric, a tough (but fair) teacher teacher and is just unpleasant to be around? Lreia does tend to crtics and prod the payer a lot especially when you are doing somehting foolish or short sighted.
"Fan, a Mega Man character."
Absolutely, if you go to Kotor 2 expecting an uncritical power fantasy like Kotor 1 (which to be clear is not a negative description- there is genuinely nothing wrong with a more straightforward embodiment of the Star Wars experience, Kotor 1 is a master class in that category) then her role in the story will be very jarring and unpleasant. That's why while Kotor 2 is a cult classic there has always been a persistent minority who hates it, it's not your typical Star Wars game and for some people who like SW really don't like that.
For what it's worth there is a different group who just dislikes that much of her advice is very Objectivist-esque. Which is a more reasonable thing to dislike but isn't necessarily a sign the game itself is Objectivist. Kreia is still the villain, her perspective is not supposed to be uncritically accepted without further examination.
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji YangOh yes, you're supposed to push back on Kreia and that is one of the benefits of Chris Avellone writing. Not that he doesn't agree with Kreia and Ulysses (and probably the villain of POE) but that he at least is happy to let you express your arguments.
Edited by CharlesPhipps on Oct 12th 2024 at 6:13:25 AM
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.Kreia also cares a lot more about the Exile's approval than she is willing to admit, which is something that Atton realizes early in the game. That Kreia wants the Exile to respect her.
Which is why it's actually easy to build up influence with her if you tell her that you'll consider what she has to say, even if you otherwise do things she doesn't want you to do.
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Kreia's basically employing the Socratic Method on the Exile to make them actually think about their choices and actions. The most generous read on Kreia is that she wants to make sure that whatever the Exile chooses, it's because they've thought it through and aren't just following some creed. Kreia's doing a bit of projecting here, since following the creeds of the Jedi and the Sith didn't work out for her.
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Kreia at the end of the day was going through existential turmoil and hoped that the Exile — someone whose nature meant the Will of the Force had no influence on them — could help her find answers / closure.
Edited by M84 on Oct 14th 2024 at 8:11:15 PM
Disgusted, but not surprised![]()
I like Kreia and find her ending with a Light Side Exile great, but there are other characters with depth neglected by this thread.
Edited by RedHunter543 on Oct 14th 2024 at 8:17:26 PM
"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"G0-T0. Unironically, my favorite droid in the entire series.
There's something compelling about a simple logistics management droid breaking because it couldn't follow the laws of the Republic to maintain it's stability and becoming a crime boss in order to take actions to preserve the Republic.
Edited by RedHunter543 on Oct 14th 2024 at 8:24:43 PM
"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"I feel like Atris is rejected a lot. Among all the surviving Jedi Masters, she's the only one who actually fell to the Dark Side, and her hatred of the Exile is far, far more personal.
And the dialogue options the player gets indicates that the Exile is also prone to losing their temper when it comes to anything related to Atris specifically.
Atris is a big reason I feel like Brianna should have been in the party regardless of the Exile's gender.
Edited by SilentColossus on Oct 14th 2024 at 8:29:01 AM

There's no Devil in Star Wars
bullshit palpatine most certainly is the closet thing to 'the devil in human form' in Star wars
have a listen and have a link to my discord server