TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Racism, Sexism, Antisemitism and other things one can unwittingly be

Go To

DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#101: Aug 27th 2012 at 3:43:55 AM

"Also, "cracker" means specifically "dirt-poor white hick"."

In definition? yes.

In use? Not so much.

In use Cracker is just an offensive term thrown at white people, regardless of class or wealth. Same thing with whitey and honkey. Although no one is actually offended by the term "honkey" because it sounds absolutely stupid.

And for reasons I don't fully understand, Nigger and Nigga are used as friendly terms between black people. Hell, Jay-Z and Kanye West's newest song is called "Niggers in Paris."

edited 27th Aug '12 3:47:13 AM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#102: Aug 27th 2012 at 3:45:11 AM

I honestly can't say I find a different color of skin to be more remarkable than a different hair color or nose length. But it gets significant if people develop an identity around said physical trait.

I think bigotry is mostly a matter of cultural identification. "Blackness" is simply such a tag in the USA, but there are other tags depending on how your culture structures the world. The Romans had no problem having a Black dude as emperor because he was brought up as a roman and acted as such, for example.

edited 27th Aug '12 3:49:14 AM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Hydronix I'm an Irene! from TV Tropes Since: Apr, 2010
I'm an Irene!
#103: Aug 27th 2012 at 3:51:09 AM

However, people use offensive terms solely because of that.

It's great you avoid being racist. But others don't, and it's still terrible. Same with using derogatory terms as well. If you know why it is, it's better to not use them in the first place.

And yes, I realize that a lot of our tropes aren't the best at that either here, but often fictional ones aren't anywhere on the same level. Unlike sexism, a lot of racism is media has either gotten better, or people really don't care nearly as much.(it's still bad, no denying that) However, often times in a game, color rarely matters these days. Besides the whole "Blue is weak, red's stronger" bit with recolors. But taking that as racist misses a bit of the point. It's really nowhere near as bad as the accidental stuff with White and Black Magic alone. It's only kept that way since a Light and Dark Mage don't always sound as near or iconic.

The Sexism bit is covered more in other topics, but as noted, it's much more prevalent in media, and affects women a lot more than men right now. We're still trying to fix it on both ends, but it takes time.

The first trick here is acknowledging it exists and is actually wrong. Then we can literally fix it. Using those terms are wrong. So we need to work on figuring out better ways to speak and to educate those on why they're horrible to use.

[up] We're telling you that it's still a bad thing.

[up][up] All the more reason I despise N-Word Privileges and don't believe it's right for anyone to say that. Atleast till the term is finally deprived of its horrible origin, respectively.

edited 27th Aug '12 3:52:29 AM by Hydronix

Quest 64 thread
DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#104: Aug 27th 2012 at 3:53:47 AM

[up][up]

"I honestly can't say I find a different color of skin to be more remarkable than a different hair color or nose length. But it gets significant if people develop an identity around said physical trait. "

[awesome][awesome][awesome][awesome]

I keep telling everyone Race isn't important. Culture is important.

edited 27th Aug '12 3:54:00 AM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#105: Aug 27th 2012 at 4:01:07 AM

Yeah, N-Word Privileges are a complicated subject. There's a lot of debate over whether the word can (or should) be reclaimed in the same way 'black' was, and even if it can, whether white people should be able to use it too. One argument I've heard is that 'nigger', when used amongst black people, is an acknowledgement of the suffering and oppression (present and historical) that ties them together, and so it's kind of intrusive and appropriative for a white guy to use it in that way.

What's precedent ever done for us?
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#106: Aug 27th 2012 at 4:10:03 AM

[up]Oh. Now that actually makes sense.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Hydronix I'm an Irene! from TV Tropes Since: Apr, 2010
I'm an Irene!
#107: Aug 27th 2012 at 4:13:09 AM

That's exactly the thing; In time, it could be turned into a respectable term. It's not yet, but it's getting there. But this requires everyone to play along. Not just an agreement among anyone with a darker color.

And yes, I don't believe colors on human beings mean anything.(well, outside of D&D where you put it there anyway. But you know what I mean)

We were a little lucky with "Cracker", since it had an entirely non-derogative meaning. That is, what Waifers are, if you will.(you know what I mean, the food itself.) I say a little, because anybody can use that word in a context where it can't mean anything bad except for those who don't know the situation.

Quest 64 thread
DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#108: Aug 27th 2012 at 4:15:37 AM

[up][up][up]

Was "black" ever used a bad word?

"One argument I've heard is that 'nigger', when used amongst black people, is an acknowledgement of the suffering and oppression (present and historical) that ties them together, and so it's kind of intrusive and appropriative for a white guy to use it in that way."

It still seems..silly. I'm Jewish (and we all know how much the Jews have suffered) and I would never say to a fellow Jew, "Wassup my Kike." It sounds stupid.

You never see Hispanics call each other "Spics" or East Asians call each other "Gooks"

[up]

Not all crakers are Waifers.

"That's exactly the thing; In time, it could be turned into a respectable term. It's not yet, but it's getting there. But this requires everyone to play along. Not just an agreement among anyone with a darker color."

It really isn't and it will be a cold day in hell before everyone plays along.

edited 27th Aug '12 4:24:58 AM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#109: Aug 27th 2012 at 4:19:39 AM

@ Iaculus:

Yeah, N-Word Privileges are a complicated subject.

...and of course vary from country to country. For example, British Blacks are post-World War II immigrants from the Caribbean*

or are more recent immigrants from Africa itself.

[up]

In Britain, probably, but it's a term even used by the Black Community themselves and they've always been called that*

.

edited 27th Aug '12 4:21:56 AM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On
Hydronix I'm an Irene! from TV Tropes Since: Apr, 2010
I'm an Irene!
#110: Aug 27th 2012 at 4:20:11 AM

I still believe it's silly. But trying to remove the negative meanings of a widely used word is a noble thing to do.

Meanings of words change over time and all. And that's not a bad thing. Racist terms being turned into something positive can actually not only improve language, but help combat racism itself. People who used an old word wrong can not only be corrected, but it can also eliminate their attempts at racism(as some are, I will not lie at all), worsening what they try to do.

Part of combating racism(and other isms/etc.) is through subtle ways. Changing definitions can do wonders. Let's say turning "Nigger" into a very positive definition happens. There may still be KKK members, whether those who were taught by earlier ones, or whatever. It stops them faster in their tracks, when what they say can't be used negatively anymore.

Long story short, it helps stomp out racism if no racist terms exist anymore. It's but one step, and doesn't do it all, but it helps atleast.

[up][up] That misses the point, though. Waifers is a less-used term and doesn't have any negative meanings I'm aware of. Cracker can. Until these things get fixed like they need to be, using a less harmful term is not a bad thing in comparison.

edited 27th Aug '12 4:27:34 AM by Hydronix

Quest 64 thread
DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#111: Aug 27th 2012 at 4:29:50 AM

[up]

"I still believe it's silly. But trying to remove the negative meanings of a widely used word is a noble thing to do. "

Its also a futile thing to do. Ever heard of the Euphemism Treadmill? If nigger ever gains universally popular connotation, than expect Coon and Darkie to be said a lot more.

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
Talby Since: Jun, 2009
#112: Aug 27th 2012 at 4:30:25 AM

People will just come up with new terms if the word "nigger" ceases to be offensive. You're treating a symptom, not the cause.

Hydronix I'm an Irene! from TV Tropes Since: Apr, 2010
I'm an Irene!
#113: Aug 27th 2012 at 4:32:20 AM

And then we work to rid of those words too.

Trying to get rid of those is still a good idea.

I did not say it solves it. I said it helps it. Every little bit does indeed matter. Eliminating the small bits can help eliminate the big bits.

It also can help point out actual racists and find ways to change their views or solve it. Changing a meaning can entirely change the flow of things.

I see no harm in eliminating negative meanings of word like that. I don't see how it fails to help as well.

Quest 64 thread
DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#114: Aug 27th 2012 at 4:37:08 AM

"And then we work to rid of those words too."

THEN NEW DEROGATORY WORDS WILL BE INVENTED AND USED.

This is a never-ending Treadmill of negativity and continuing to run it, is not going to stop it. I doubt it'll even make it go slower.

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
LoniJay from Australia Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
#115: Aug 27th 2012 at 4:37:39 AM

Wafers, people. It's spelt wafers. tongue

I sort of feel like I can't say much about 'nigger', because it's not a common insult in Australia. I don't think there's really an accepted term for black people here; obviously we can't call them African Americans.

I have heard 'blackfella' used for indigenous people... both by indigenous people and non-indigenous, but the second is mainly in racist figures of speech (i.e. this place is a mess, were you raised by blackfellas).

edited 27th Aug '12 4:40:37 AM by LoniJay

Be not afraid...
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#116: Aug 27th 2012 at 4:38:38 AM

And then we work to rid of those words too.

Then people will use other words or invent new words instead, I'm afraid. You need to kill the root or you'll run out of words...

Keep Rolling On
DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#117: Aug 27th 2012 at 4:39:09 AM

[up]

I just said that. I even added a cool metaphor.

[up][up]

Call them African-Australians. Or black people/person

edited 27th Aug '12 4:41:19 AM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
Hydronix I'm an Irene! from TV Tropes Since: Apr, 2010
I'm an Irene!
#118: Aug 27th 2012 at 4:40:28 AM

You don't get the point, do you? We never stop fighting to combat it. Killing the current words slowly takes down racism as well as doing big things takes it down hard too. Both are good to do.

There is no reason to not do the little stuff either. That's just a false way to remove racism. Every bit helps fighting against any of these things, small and big.

Combating it isn't all about giant rallies either. It's about changing as much as we can to kill it. Killing it from the roots and hitting some of the leaves battles it very well too. And taking out the worst word ever made for racism(against one specific group) is a step in the right direction. There is absolutely no reason not to eliminate the negative concoctions of it whatsoever along with hitting the roots(which is harder than people think). Both are hard, and both are entirely worth working for.

[up][up] And if they have no words to use, we have better chances of hacking at the roots. Both work towards the same goal and both work very well as a solution. We can do both, not just one or the other.

edited 27th Aug '12 4:41:36 AM by Hydronix

Quest 64 thread
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#119: Aug 27th 2012 at 4:42:21 AM

[up][up]

Yeah, I noticed. I was going to use "Lovely" as a random example of a word that could be re-used in a racist manner. [lol]

Black is the most common Commonwealth term, BTW.

[up]

I mean no words. At All. Full Stop. Any word can be re-used in a racist manner, understand me?

edited 27th Aug '12 4:45:07 AM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On
Hydronix I'm an Irene! from TV Tropes Since: Apr, 2010
I'm an Irene!
#120: Aug 27th 2012 at 4:45:17 AM

Exactly.

If they got no words to use negatively. We already have a major win on our hands.

If we don't get to the root first, we already take away a major weapon, making the hacking far easier.

I don't see the problem here. Both should be done because they both do good things overall.

[up] And when we knock them down for using it that way, destroying the racism itself, the actual root is easier to hack at. Destroying every bad usage of a word every time does help slowly. It's not a perfect solution, but it still helps the overall one. And contrary to popular belief, many words will literally be ignored that way, eliminating them from trying to make it bad. The hypothetical you're proposing will never work either. That'll never happen. Because not every word can be made negative.

edited 27th Aug '12 4:48:57 AM by Hydronix

Quest 64 thread
Talby Since: Jun, 2009
#121: Aug 27th 2012 at 4:47:22 AM

Call them African-Australians.

Black people in Australia (Aboriginals) are native to this country, they are not from Africa. I'm sorry to say that you Fail Australian History Forever.tongue

DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#122: Aug 27th 2012 at 4:48:25 AM

"You don't get the point, do you? We never stop fighting to combat it. Killing the current words slowly takes down racism."

It really doesn't. If anything its counter-efficient because it distracts people from the serious issues.

Need proof? Just look at gay people.

We use gay a negative word.

They turn gay into a positive word.(sorta)

We replace gay with queer.

They turn queer into a positive word.(kinda)

We replace queer with faggot.

IT'S A NEVER ENDING TREADMILL.

[up]

I was talking about non-Aboriginal Black people (Australia has those right?) Why wouldn't you just call the Aboriginal people Aboriginals?

edited 27th Aug '12 4:51:37 AM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
LoniJay from Australia Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
#123: Aug 27th 2012 at 4:49:34 AM

Well, surely the idea is not to run on the treadmill forever. Only until we get to a hypothetical future state where skin colour is of no importance, which is the ultimate point of anti-racism campaigning, isn't it?

African-Australians wouldn't be appropriate, I think... I don't think we have a substantial population that it would be appropriate to describe as 'African' rather than whatever country they actually came from.

Be not afraid...
Hydronix I'm an Irene! from TV Tropes Since: Apr, 2010
I'm an Irene!
#124: Aug 27th 2012 at 4:51:13 AM

And just giving up does anything good? We still keep fighting against it while hacking at the roots.

It's a two-pronged attack that actually does work.

And once again, how is fighting against negatively "bad" by any means. Little things don't work? Oh, they work alright. And fyi, all of those can have positive meanings as well. And have had them. So... no, that's not correct. Anything could be made positive, but not everything works in reverse.

I 100% stand by the idea that eliminating negative words helps the overall solution, not hurts it at all.

[up] Practically this. We can continue to make it positive. You won't be able to make it negative forever. You eventually run out of words while we don't. Why? Because you have to go into made-up words, which means you're grasping at straws by that point, also meaning that people are just going to roll their eyes eventually and just say "Really? Get over it already." That's what happens after a while. People won't put up with that kind of stupidity forever. It helps solves the word issue alone. That just makes it easier to hack at the roots, which is what I'm overall saying. Any solution that makes the roots easier to get at is a good solution.

edited 27th Aug '12 4:57:00 AM by Hydronix

Quest 64 thread
Talby Since: Jun, 2009
#125: Aug 27th 2012 at 5:08:08 AM

[up][up][up]My bad, I thought you meant Aboriginals when you said black people in Australia. There is some immigration from Africa here, but not a substantial number. Australia gets much more immigration from Asia due to our position in the region.

[up] The problem is, language is just a way of expressing ideas. So long as the idea of racism exists, people will find ways to express it. Trying to change the meaning of words strikes me as being a futile gesture.

edited 27th Aug '12 5:15:35 AM by Talby


Total posts: 437
Top