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Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#76: Aug 26th 2012 at 2:57:17 PM

[up]Which is why someone on the street calling you a cracker is just as much of a problem as apartheid, yes?

edited 26th Aug '12 2:57:59 PM by Iaculus

What's precedent ever done for us?
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#77: Aug 26th 2012 at 3:04:32 PM

Well, yeah. It's still racism.

It's just one of those things that Bugs Me, and comes across as a bit of Political Correctness Gone Mad — if Racism is wrong, then why give any race any leniency in the matter? Racism is wrong, so all forms of racism must be stamped out. Zero Tolerance in all directions.

Well, that's how I understand it at least*

. It might be disproportionate, but I don't really care...

Keep Rolling On
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#78: Aug 26th 2012 at 3:05:10 PM

It's not just as bad, but both are racist.

BlackHumor Since: Jan, 2001
#79: Aug 26th 2012 at 4:47:18 PM

Both are racist by the ordinary "prejudice because of someone's race" definition.

But it doesn't make terribly much sense to care about that sort of racism. "Cracker" and "honkey" will never produce more than hurt feelings in a white person, but the institutional power white people as a group hold means that their racism against non-whites can really harm people in ways much more serious than hurt feelings.

This is why most sociologists talk about "institutionalized racism" and not just "racism"; racism against the majority group is little more than an insult.

Aprilla Since: Aug, 2010
#80: Aug 26th 2012 at 5:25:22 PM

Pardon the threadhop, but I don't really have time to read every page of this.

@The Handle and Black Humor:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOUlJLrQ3sQ

If you have a couple of hours, sit down and watch this documentary. It's called Defamation, and it explores this issue in great detail. It's highly relevant to this discussion.

Hydronix I'm an Irene! from TV Tropes Since: Apr, 2010
I'm an Irene!
#81: Aug 26th 2012 at 5:36:35 PM

Racism against a majority group is still entirely horrible. It's still entirely wrong and should not exist.

I don't buy the "acceptable targets" excuse either. Just because I'm White means it's okay for people to be racist against me, but I can't be against them? You do realize that's entirely a racist concept in itself, right? Why? Because it's still inequality. There is no excuse to be racist against anything. It's bad no matter what and not acceptable no matter what.

I hate racist jokes, to be honest. The difference is that they're not always intended to harm another. However, being racist against someone, even if we're the majority? That's an intention to harm, which means it's still downright horrible to do.

Equality works both ways. This brings another issue; Mainly the whole Acceptable Targets thing. Many people finally stopped being racist, realizing their mistake. Many times they get targeted via racism itself. The idea that they should be targeted being okay is just entirely false as well. It's racist regardless and terrible regardless.

There is no such thing as "okay racism" and never will be. It's the same reason I think N-Word Privileges is a load of crap. No, they are still using extremely racist terms. If they can change the term to mean something else, I'm fine with that. But until then, it has a racist meaning. It's bad as that regardless of who uses it.

Quest 64 thread
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#82: Aug 26th 2012 at 5:50:04 PM

While it's true that no racism is ok, some racism is more detrimental to society than others, and we should focus on eliminating first. That's not to say that the racism that is less detrimental should not be dealt with or given a free pass, but we should eliminate the wage gap between white men and black men, which is larger than between men and women, btw, before we focus on eliminating the use of the word "cracker" to refer to Caucasian people.

edited 26th Aug '12 5:50:42 PM by deathpigeon

Wicked223 from Death Star in the forest Since: Apr, 2009
#83: Aug 26th 2012 at 5:54:20 PM

but we should eliminate the wage gap between white men and black men, which is larger than between men and women, btw, before we focus on eliminating the use of the word "cracker" to refer to Caucasian people.

In fact, since the latter is mostly a product of the forces that produced the former, if you solve the first problem the second will go away more or less on its own.

You can't even write racist abuse in excrement on somebody's car without the politically correct brigade jumping down your throat!
Muramasan13 Since: Nov, 2009 Relationship Status: Not war
#84: Aug 26th 2012 at 6:38:28 PM

That is not sound logic, Wicked. If one symptom of a disease is treated, the others do not always disappear.

Smile for me!
Wicked223 from Death Star in the forest Since: Apr, 2009
#85: Aug 26th 2012 at 6:40:32 PM

If one symptom of a disease is treated, the others do not always disappear.

There's a pretty well-established causal relationship between these two symptoms, however.

You can't even write racist abuse in excrement on somebody's car without the politically correct brigade jumping down your throat!
Hydronix I'm an Irene! from TV Tropes Since: Apr, 2010
I'm an Irene!
#86: Aug 26th 2012 at 6:49:16 PM

We treat both, not one.

Some could take priority first, which is what's worse at the time. That doesn't make any actually more overall important, just the order of which to do first.

Quest 64 thread
Gabrael from My musings Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
#87: Aug 26th 2012 at 8:02:22 PM

Using racial slurs, regardless of how immature and ignorant, is in general protected by free speech so long as it's not instigating a fight or breaking slander or liable laws.

Wage gaps, unbalanced sentancing of criminals, institutional racism, and racial profiling can be governed by laws and should be.

As much as I would love for people to be able to correct themselves, I know that human nature doesn't like to work that way. Sometimes people have to be forced to do the right thing.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#88: Aug 27th 2012 at 2:37:27 AM

[up]Actually that's the sort of expression of racism that really matters. If your boss treats you fairly, gives you promotion according to your merit as much as anyone else, pays you according to your output, and so on, and yet still calls you "nigger", he's being a rude asshole and you could probably sue him for verbal aggression, but how is he being a racist?

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#89: Aug 27th 2012 at 2:39:38 AM

[up]Because his aggression is framed in racial terms. He's insulting you as a black person, not as lazy, incompetent, poorly-dressed, or whatever.

Plus, that's not a very likely hypothetical. 'Nigger' is a very obviously racially-charged term in modern society, so it's improbable that someone who uses it is otherwise going to treat black people in exactly the same way as he treats everyone else.

edited 27th Aug '12 2:42:13 AM by Iaculus

What's precedent ever done for us?
Hydronix I'm an Irene! from TV Tropes Since: Apr, 2010
I'm an Irene!
#90: Aug 27th 2012 at 2:42:53 AM

That doesn't make it any less harassment and any less of a reason to report it.

It may be a different scenario, but it's just as bad.

Quest 64 thread
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#91: Aug 27th 2012 at 2:47:14 AM

But didn't we just say that what matters is the institutional racism that actually harms, not just, well, bad words?

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Hydronix I'm an Irene! from TV Tropes Since: Apr, 2010
I'm an Irene!
#92: Aug 27th 2012 at 2:51:25 AM

Saying racists things alone is bad too.

Especially the scenario given. That was just plain insulting. Just because some may not mind doesn't make it right.

This is one of those scenarios. Saying racist things, even sometimes as a poor joke, doesn't make it less of a racist thing. It just looks acceptable.

That's all.

Quest 64 thread
Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#93: Aug 27th 2012 at 2:56:29 AM

[up][up]Thing is, 'nigger' derives its weight from that institutional racism - among other things, it's unlikely to be the first time the black guy has heard it that month, that week, or even that day, and it comes on top of a myriad of other inequalities. Even if you have a good job and your boss pays you well, you'll still have a tougher time getting into good neighbourhoods and getting your kids into good schools, the police are more likely to stop you on the street, and so on. Racist insults like that are damaging because they're a reminder and reinforcement of the social disadvantage you derive from your skin simply being the wrong colour.

edited 27th Aug '12 2:56:39 AM by Iaculus

What's precedent ever done for us?
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#94: Aug 27th 2012 at 3:02:37 AM

He only used the word, though. What are those connotations the word carries? I ask in earnest.

Forgive my ignorance, but, as far as I'm concerned, like, emotionally and subconsciously and so on, "nigger" means either "rapper" or "character in a comedy". In fact, "nigger" is an abreviation of "negro", which used to be a neutral word, kind of like Nubian, or Moor. This is because I've only ever experienced it in media, and I've never, ever seen a white person call a black person a nigger in those.

Same for "Jap", which I've used by accident in the past, having come up with it on my own as a neutral abbreviation and never heard it in the WWII context.

Also, "cracker" means specifically "dirt-poor white hick". Like, Deliverance style. It just doesn't apply to the rest of "white" people.

edited 27th Aug '12 3:04:03 AM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#95: Aug 27th 2012 at 3:18:04 AM

[up]This may explain things a bit more.

Long story short, 'negro' was the term used to describe black people during the slave years, and 'nigger' is a pejorative corruption of it.

It's a word with some bad, bad history, and when a white guy uses it on a black guy, there's a subtext of 'you're a dumb, untamed brute, and we used to own you'.

What's precedent ever done for us?
Hydronix I'm an Irene! from TV Tropes Since: Apr, 2010
I'm an Irene!
#96: Aug 27th 2012 at 3:20:41 AM

Negro(which is rarely used) is the correct term for it. Although referring to people as Black/White(etc.) isn't exactly favored upon either for quite obvious reasons.

"Nigger" and "Cracker" are both used as derogatory terms. Cracker does respectively have context where it's unrelated to a White person. "Nigger" almost never does. Although see N-Word Privileges for obvious "exceptions"(whether you find that bull or not is your call).

Just because you don't mean it in a racist way doesn't mean what you said isn't racist. That's the message that needs to be gotten. You do need to watch what you say, because it can cause a lot more damage than you think it does.

A trick is to simply do the research of a name when people call you out on it. It does wonders overall. An interesting tidbit about "Jap". Some time back, many video games were labeled with UK/NTSC/JAP to tell what version it is. JAP is sometimes changed to JP. This is somewhat noticeable in a game call Yugioh, where they actually differentiate between cards via EN(English), JP(Japanese), etc. The point was to try and not only help tell the difference(and not just for fake cards), but to get rid of accidental racist terms. It's also why a lot of cards use Dark instead of Black in many cases of translations. Not all of them, but "Black Magician" got changed to "Dark Magician" quite early on. They also kept a similar name for Magician of Black Chaos, because the Chaos part doesn't refer to the actual "creature" itself. This isn't the case for all cards, but often "Humanoid" monsters tend to avoid that in the English versions just to avoid unfortunate implications. Keep in mind they don't have the word for Dark in Japan, just Black and Darkness.(all different words)

So as you can see, many have tried their best to avoid a lot of racist stuff. Asking to to avoid using racist terms alone is not much at all in comparison.

edited 27th Aug '12 3:29:52 AM by Hydronix

Quest 64 thread
Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#97: Aug 27th 2012 at 3:25:38 AM

[up]Really? What country are you from? In Britain and America, 'negro' is frowned upon because, again, it hearkens back to the slave years, and 'black' (as an adjective, not a noun) is generally the best term to use.

edited 27th Aug '12 3:25:49 AM by Iaculus

What's precedent ever done for us?
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#98: Aug 27th 2012 at 3:32:14 AM

Oh. Well, the hypocrisy of that insult is kind of staggering, given that they're directly responsible for keeping their slaves as stupid and ignorant as possible...

Let me see that article in more detail...

Cultural: Addressing the use of nigger by black people, Cornel West said, "There's a certain rhythmic seduction to the word. If you speak in a sentence, and you have to say cat, companion, or friend, as opposed to nigger, then the rhythmic presentation is off. That rhythmic language is a form of historical memory for black people... When Richard Pryor came back from Africa, and decided to stop using the word onstage, he would sometimes start to slip up, because he was so used to speaking that way. It was the right word at the moment to keep the rhythm together in his sentence making."[16] Contemporarily, the implied racism of the word nigger has rendered its usages social taboo. In the US, magazines and newspapers often do not use it, instead printing "family-friendly" censored versions, usually "n*gg*r", "n**ger", "n——", and "the N-word"; however, historians and social activists, such as Dick Gregory, criticize the euphemisms and their usage as intellectually dishonest, because using the euphemism "the N-word" instead of nigger robs younger generations of Americans of the full history of Black people in America.

Now I'm confused.

In his memoir, All Souls, Michael Patrick Mac Donald describes how many white residents of the Old Colony housing project in South Boston used this meaning to degrade the people considered to be of lower status, whether white or black.[28]

“Of course, no one considered himself a nigger. It was always something you called someone who could be considered anything less than you. I soon found out there were a few black families living in Old Colony. They'd lived there for years and everyone said that they were okay, that they weren't niggers but just black. It felt good to all of us to not be as bad as the hopeless people in D Street or, God forbid, the ones in Columbia Point, who were both black and niggers. But now I was jealous of the kids in Old Harbor Project down the road, which seemed like a step up from Old Colony...

I'll finish reading that article later, but this bit caught my attention:

The country music artist David Allan Coe used the racial terms "redneck", "white trash", and "nigger" in the songs "If That Ain't Country, I'll Kiss Your Ass" and "Nigger Fucker"The country music artist David Allan Coe used the racial terms "redneck", "white trash", and "nigger" in the songs "If That Ain't Country, I'll Kiss Your Ass" and "Nigger Fucker"

That's semantic drift, ain't it?

Now I understand that bit of the lyrics of Death Note's second opening... "Hey hey ningen fucker, come on ningen sucker..." "Ningen" being Japanese for "human". That's an interesting bilingual pun, if nothing else.

edited 27th Aug '12 3:32:50 AM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#99: Aug 27th 2012 at 3:33:09 AM

To my understanding, "negro" is bad, but not that bad. "Nigger" is horribly offensive. Black can be good or bad. African-American is the most politically correct.

Hydronix I'm an Irene! from TV Tropes Since: Apr, 2010
I'm an Irene!
#100: Aug 27th 2012 at 3:34:41 AM

It's considered "better" than Nigger, respectively. That's the point I'm making.

We don't always use Black either. In most cases, some of us never references one's color, because... it doesn't matter.(Acting may have legitimate reasons at best, but most argue that's bad too)

I'm not saying it's a great term to use either, of course. But read what I said earlier about how some fiction attempts to minimize it. Another case is Dark types in Pokemon. They're all dirty fighters as is.(not actual Darkness) The thing is, in Japan, it's called Evil. Now, since most Dark types happen to be black-colored, way back then, they could've easily been called a Black type. That's yet another one avoided thanks to using non-racist implications.

Not everything does that, you can still find a Black Ooze or whatever(to be fair, they're all given a color, so it's not exactly meant to be anywhere near the same level).

Now think of what this means outside of fiction for a moment. While in fiction, color plays a different due to how the game works, where elements, or whatever, it doesn't in real life. What I'm saying here is that referring to anything in real life via their color, even joking-wise, can easily be misinterpreted as racism itself. See how easy it is to make a mistake? And why we're trying to eliminate the whole "color" differences alone? To avoid these things.

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