Welcome to the Content Violations Discussion forum, where we discuss whether a work violates The Content Policy.
Remember that the forum rules apply here
, plus the following:
- You don't PM moderators about stuff pertaining to the policies, except for thread reasons;
- We tolerate links to scanlation sites unlike in the rest of the site due to its purpose, although it's preferred to remove them when they have done their jobs;
- The forum is not a soapbox for your own views on the policy or on morality. Please leave them at the door.
Violations of these rules can result in a ban from the subforum, or from the entire forum.
Otherwise:
Also, keep in mind that there are works that we don't want flagged without a really good reason as they are not likely in violation of policy:
- Is a film rated below "R" for U.S. distribution.
- Is a show that can be aired on prime time television.
- Is a video game that is rated below "M" by the ESRB.
- Is a written work that is sold in major bookstores without an "adult" or "mature" label.
- Is an anime/manga/etc. that is approved for U.S. import as a non-adult work.
- Is read/shown/taught in high school or below.
- Is in another format and meets equivalent criteria.
What we're looking for:
- Pure porn, or porn with an Excuse Plot only,
- Anything that has explicit underage sex,
- Implied sex of preteens or younger, and
- Fanservice intended to cater to pedophiles (lolicon and shotacon fanservice can count).
A couple of guidelines so the procedure can move smoothly:
- Do not list whole indexes or works just because they are on a certain index or have lolicon, H-Game or shotacon on their trope list.
- Do not list works you know nothing about without at least reading the trope page.
- Do not list works that you know are G-rated but you find creepy.
- Pages still locked or cut as a result of The Second Google Incident are not going to be unlocked or restored. As of July 2024, the site owners have been very clear about this. Do not list them here, as we're not going to review them again.
- If it's paedophile-pandering approximately how old are the characters involved? What happens? Is it graphic? Is it merely implied?
- List what objectionable content there is, and how much of the work consists of that.
- If it's entirely sex, say so. People have different ideas of what porn is. We all have the same idea of what a work being entirely sex scenes is.
- If you're not sure about a work, say so, or ask someone who does know that work. But don't make blanket accusations. Post here: "I don't know about this work, but the page says X".
- Google and Wikipedia are your friendsnote . Do a little digging on works you aren't sure about.
Also, in the case of H Games, there is this questioning to fill up:
- When are the sex scenes located?
- Are they spread out over the game?
- How much gameplay is there between sex scenes?
- Are they only at the endings?
- How hard do you have to work to get an ending?
- Are they in every ending? Every good ending?
- Are the sex scenes optional via a choice in the menu?
- Would the story make sense without them with minimal or no rewriting?
- Are the scenes made up of stills, or are they animated?
- How explicit are the sex scenes?
- This isn't a headcount. Your opinion is only considered if it explains in at least some detail how you came to the conclusion that the work is/isn't porn/paedopandering.
- When a moderator determines that the discussion has yielded a consensus, they can enact its conclusion/ask a moderator to enact the conclusion.
- The discussion is only about whether the work qualifies as porn or as paedopandering. We don't assess anything else in this process.
Q: Why is this happening?
A: Concerning the porn, it tends to attract creepy edits that have brought us into issues with the adservers while not significantly contributing to our core purpose - tropology. Concerning paedophilia-pandering, such works are just plain creepy to have pages about.
Q: What can I do to help clean the site?
A: You can flag content as unsuitable using the flag tool, which is located in the Tools menu to the right of each article, keeping the criteria in mind. Also, you can help enforce No Lewdness, No Prudishness across the wiki, possibly though cleaning pages listed in this Long Term Projects thread
.
Q. This episodic work isn't finished yet. Shouldn't we wait for the ending before discussing it?
A. No. If released instalments may violate the content policy, we want to take action as soon as that's established — we don't need to wait for the ending. We can always revisit a decision to cut or keep once the work is over, but that point might still be years or decades away.
Q: This work is not actually/primarily pornographic. Why was it cut?
A: This could be for a number of different reasons. If the work was deemed to be paedopandering, for example, it will be cut whether or not it's actually sexually explicit. Being pro-paedophilia or pandering to paedophiles is bad enough, even if the work is nominally anti-paedophilia. Of course, it's possible that there was a mistake and then you should appeal it - please check the reasons first, however.
Q: This work is being/has been cut, but it is not a violation of the Content Policy. How do I make an appeal?
A: Flag the work page using the button in the sidebar and state your reasons for restoration.
Q: This work is pretty much pure porn, but it's really good porn. Can an exception be made?
A: Nope, sorry. If it's mainly porn, it goes.
Q: Why would you cut this? In [culture x], it is totally acceptable.
A: The vast majority of our readers come from the Americas or Western Europe, so we will be adhering to what could broadly be termed "Western" standards. This means we will not be permitting works which sexualize 12 year olds, and nor will we be demanding that every picture of a woman on the site must wear a burqa.
Q: How can you possibly claim to know authorial intent? (Roland Barthes is my co-pilot.)
A: It is not important what the authorial intent was, only the outcome.
Q: Wikipedia have articles on all kinds of awful stuff. Why can't we do the same?
A: Wikipedia is a strictly academic site. They have to cite sources and a "no censorship rule". They also do not aim to be Family Friendly, and are not reliant upon third party ads for funding. Conversely, one of our stated aims is to celebrate fiction, and our generally light, non-negative tone is a reflection of this, which has led to much more gushing about inappropiate content.
Q: So should I take every article here as an endorsement of whatever it describes?
A: No, of course not. We have pages on Greedy Jew, Adolf Hitler and Mein Kampf after all. However, if we choose to focus our attention on schoolgirls' thighs or porn, it does reflect very poorly on us. Fan Fic Recommendations are a slightly different issue. If a work is recommended there, this should be taken as an endorsement by the troper who wrote it.
Q: Are we allowed to make forum threads about works processed by the Content Violation Discussions forum?
A: If it was voted "clean and keep", a forum thread is relatively safe as long as it is restricted to talking about the clean parts. Anything with a stronger judgement is discouraged on the forums.
Q. You mention that there will be no further reviews of work cut or locked after The Second Google Incident. What about the pages that have already been reviewed and unlocked or restored?
A. We're not overturning those previous decisions. However, if a restored/unlocked page causes problems again, it's very likely to be locked or cut, and it won't get a third chance if that happens.
Q: Where can I find decisions regarding a work?
A: They are linked from the discussion page. Sometimes the old list of content reviews
or the thread list in this forum can help as well.
Q: I still have some questions/concerns.
A: We will be happy to answer them. There is a thread
for this.
- Modpost in the thread to acknowledge the decision
- Lock all applicable pages and subpages
- Put an explanatory notice on the work page discussion pages, including a link to the relevant CVD thread.
- Add the work to Administivia's Content Policy page list
- Check for reviews and delete and that exist
- Check for work-specific forum threads and lock any that exist. Threads that discuss multiple works may warrant a modpost to explain that this one has been removed from the wiki.
- Submit the pages to the cut list
- Cut the pages
- Lock the thread
- Guro: Violence played for titillation. (contrast Gorn)
- 5P or P5: The panel that administered the policy prior to the review system being overhauled in 2022. See 5P.
- P(a)edoshit: Older term for "P(a)edopandering", deprecated for being inflammatory.
- Porn: A work mostly concerned with sexual arousal. Having NSFW or explicit scenes doesn't automatically make a work porn — it's when showcasing explicit scenes is the entire point of the work.
Also, questions about the policy can be asked here
. They will be added to this thread's FAQ section once answered.
Edited by Mrph1 on Jul 21st 2024 at 6:53:12 PM
OK, can we take the discussion to Restorations? I don't want us clogging up the policy thread with non-policy discussion any more than necessary.
"Polite life will fill you full of cancer." - Iggy Pop "I've seen the future, brother, it is murder." -Leonard CohenYes, that's an Eddie thing.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"Sorry to insist on this topic, but I think all this requires more discussion than the amount that was given.
Just to make it clear about what I'm pointing out here, the porn part of the rules has already been quite clear and I think it is fair.extra stuff to clarify myself
Now... My Head Scratcher is about the other part of the content policy which I don't feel like I was properly clarified yet. The part about what's currently called paedopandering. I just can't make a complete sense out of it...
Why does such thing need to be that strict? I don't talk about anything that evolves s.e.x with minors. That makes complete sense. I'm talking about other works, works that just show a little more without implying or "screaming" SEX in the images or in its content. I really still don't get it.
The image that that a really large amount of the tropers are getting from this action is that works, specially japanese works, are being blindly cut. I do know this is not true, they are being evaluated according the current rules. What it really sounds like it's happening is not that the P5 is doing anything really wrong, what's wrong is these new rules. They are an exaggeration, they are just too tham strict!
I already asked to talk personally to Fast Eddie or to have an open discussion with him, as he's the one who is making those rules. The objective is to understand why do those paedopandering rules actually need to be like that. The problem is that my request was completely ignored and only a member of the P5 or a moderator (don't actually know who) answered that he didn't know specific "stuff" about why the rules are like that. What's the problem with having an adult conversation with the admin if no other member can take his place? I read all clarifications that many others were redirected to and many links but they don't show enough about this subject.
edited 7th Oct '12 2:53:36 AM by brunoais
The Author's intent is not the same as what the P5 determine what the work itself portrays.
Some are clearly pedophilia without a doubt.(Kodomo No Jikan) Others are questionable. Some are only Pedophilia if you think about it too hard.
But the fact remains that many works do invite pedophiles onto this site, and they need to be eradicated due to that, and the fact that they're no longer appropriate for this site.
I understand that they're still a legitimate work with tropes/storytelling, etc. That does not make it "fine", however. I get where you're coming from(except I disagree that most of what is hit isn't clearly pedophilia), but I still agree to remove it from the site.
Quest 64 threadATM, I'm not requesting for any particular work to be restored.
I just want to know better than the info we have now, why such strict rules about that? I do know F Eddie does not want pedophiles here but is there really a need to such strict rules? No proper answer has been given in that, yet (only vague and somewhat vague answers).
Edit: The image this is giving me now is something like:
"How do you kill a fly? Blow up the house!" No doubt the fly is killed but too much goes along with it
edited 7th Oct '12 3:30:03 AM by brunoais
Let's cut out the hyperbole, please. It's not funny.
Pedophiles are not welcome at this site. Pedophilia is illegal. Pedophilia-pandering works tends to invite them. It works together into an simple system of No Works = Less Pedophiles.
Plain and simple.
Quest 64 threadThe only problem I can see with pedophiles in this website is that they could edit works to make dubious works look like they are good works meant for pedophiles. If that's the case, locking to prevent unwanted editing would be enough, but that's not the case, so there must be more into it than what meets the eye.
(pls correct me properly if I'm wrong)
BTW:
I didn't mean to be funny in the previous post. I used that sentence to try to express myself how I see the current discussion. I'm in real need to really understand what's going on with that option. Your answer is still too vague and is the same as the P5 and the moderators are writing, so it is not actually helping me to obtain my answer. From what I've been reading, sounds like (almost) no one is actually able to properly answer me.
edited 7th Oct '12 3:47:27 AM by brunoais
There is no proper answer beyond "We do not find pedophilia and works pandering to them acceptable. They must leave."
That's the entire gist of it. If ones who don't let known who they are exist on here and edit regularly, whatever. But if we find out they're one, they're banned. This is a full Admin decision regardless.
We're not going to approve of pedophilia, or pedophiles being on the site. That's all there is to it.
Quest 64 threadMan... this is going too much in circles... I need a complete answer to understand it and the more time passes, the more I think that only the one who made the rules can answer it
.
I want to insist on the subject but I'll just shut up for a while to get more info and PO Vs else I'd just be here in circles and not produce any useful conclusions.
edited 7th Oct '12 4:00:16 AM by brunoais
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I think it might be a bit early to say if this makes a dent in actual paedophile numbers.
The policy takes a very hard stance. It's an administrator ruling. It potentially makes T Vtropes look bad and yes it prevents paedophiles using TV Tropes to look up material, thereby also stopping them openly spreading here.
By the way, didn't we have a page for the policy? I can't seem to find it.
edited 7th Oct '12 4:01:05 AM by UltimatelySubjective
You want an explanation? I'll put it simply: The sexualisation of children makes the majority of people here horribly uncomfortable. We are an open-minded group on the whole, but things like that don't tend to sit well with us. Not only does keeping articles on such subject matter here without an explicit neutrality rule seem like a tacit endorsement, but there are people who frequent this site who were victims of sexual abuse themselves. They find this material uncomfortable at best and traumatising at worst, and we would rather lose articles on paedophilic materials than alienate innocent contributors.
Capisce?
edited 7th Oct '12 4:07:59 AM by JHM
I'll hide your name inside a word and paint your eyes with false perception.![]()
The Content Policy and the 5P Circuit is what you're looking for.
To clarify, since JHM's answer is incomplete:
The pages on explicit material (both pornographic and paedo-ish) were attracting edits that overly glorified the scenes within the work, making it look like we endorsed it. (It didn't help that most of these works tended to not paint these things in a negative light.) This made a number of tropers uncomfortable...and quite a few other people uncomfortable too, most notably the AdSense (Google's ad service) people.
It didn't help that the vast majority of these works were niche works, meaning few editors were working on each page. The fewer editors, the less Wiki Magic to correct for such problems. So a lot of these went undetected for a long time.
Thus the cleanup. The only other alternative would be to have the moderators and/or tropers, at least in the short run, run a round-the-clock watch on such pages, in order to keep them from becoming too endorsing or, worse, too explicit themselves. Obviously, since that would likely require more people to read/watch/play most of the works in question, they naturally shot that idea down.
While it would be nice if we could provide a full documenting of every type of work, the inevitable price of freedom of creativity is that some people will use it to produce works of questionable taste. * These subjects are just too hot to handle right now, so to speak.
edited 7th Oct '12 6:55:37 AM by TotemicHero
Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)![]()
Now THAT's an answer ;).
The solution the this wiki's problem seems to be something in the lines of cleaning and closing for edit all questionable and possible paedopandering works that have been talked in these forums. The biggest work we can think of (pls note I'm picking up the strongest example I could find) for that is the so much Kn J controversial work. It has good tropes to share among really questionable and too paedopandering material. The way to go does not seem to be radical cut option. The way to go is to clean and close. I don't say that that specific work should be restored (that's a discussion for the other forum) but I'm giving an example for all of you, including tv tropes owner, to think if the current radical option is actually the best option for tv tropes.
Is it really a problem to have anyone, without restrictions, to view this wiki? If so, what real problems can it cause with viewing? If all tv tropes is cleaned up and just states the tropes without any pedophile tendencies what's the problem to have shows that never had a proper controversy? Why not just clean and close 'em?
Just in case:
clean as in, removing questionable quotes, examples and tropes and leave the rest intact. (some one will have to do this, eventually)
close as in, someone can propose an edit and it's up to a moderator (or another capable, trustworthy user) to approve the changes or reject the changes. Ofc it needs to warn the user about the situation. A good example of that approach is what happens in anidb*.
The fundamental problem with cleaning porn is that there is no workforce for that. With paedopandering, cleaned paedopandering works are still cleaned paedopandering works.
Concerning the other question above: There is a substantial amount of tropers that are unsettled or creeped out by the knowledge that our wiki has pages on works that pander to paedophiles and similar sexualization of children and this amount includes the administrator. Now, you won't hear much of them at the moment in these threads as most of them have either left, were booted for being disruptive or are just not speaking openly. But because of this we have this policy of removing work pages about paedophile-pandering works, and cleanup will not suffice.
edited 7th Oct '12 8:19:31 AM by SeptimusHeap
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard FeynmanFrom the announcement linked in this thread's OP:
"You make it sound like you don't want paedophiles contributing to TV Tropes!"
Let's be frank. We are not interested in your fetishes, fantasies, or sexual preferences unless you make them an issue. There are plenty of people with "deviant" sexual interests who manage to live entirely normal lives. For those who cannot, we advise you to seek counseling and/or other medical assistance. Do not attempt to use TV Tropes as an outlet. Paedophilia is an extremely dangerous, damaging thing, and we are not going to tolerate it.
Similarly, we are not going to tolerate paedophilia/lolicon/rape apologists. Do not come on here and protest that it's just "misunderstood" and that if we just open our minds a bit... no. We are not going to be engaged in that sort of discussion and we will ban you if you try to start it.
We also wish to make it clear that we are not sponsoring or implying that it is okay to embark on a Paedo Hunt. We're just retroactively enforcing standards that we probably should have had from the beginning but didn't appreciate the need for. Those persons who do not wish to comply with the new standard are invited to go somewhere else that will appeal to their interests better — or in extreme cases seek professional therapy.
Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.

I'm pretty sure Lotte isn't gone by admin fiat. Komodin and I voted to restore while the other three voted cut, and when the restoration came up it was put on hold since by that point there was only one active P5 member besides the two of us, so it didn't seem fair.
Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.