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The Importance of Free Speech

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KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#501: Aug 14th 2012 at 7:26:36 AM

Of course you realize that in the Chick-Fil-A scenario, certain people very much wanted to punish them for spreading their ideas to private and political parties.

I have no interest in protecting people from the consequences of their beliefs. Only in protecting their right to have beliefs and protecting the people whose peace they potentially violate.

edited 14th Aug '12 7:29:00 AM by KingZeal

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#502: Aug 14th 2012 at 7:30:52 AM

That's a rather disingenuous way to play the game bro. That's sounds much like the saw "I love free speech and it should be protected. (pause) Except for that guy."

It was an honor
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#503: Aug 14th 2012 at 7:41:38 AM

Did they pursue some sort of legal punishment or simply boycotting?

Fight smart, not fair.
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#504: Aug 14th 2012 at 7:56:40 AM

Deboss, initally several elected officials, including Mayors Rahm Emanuel of Chicago, Thomas Menino of Boston, Edwin Lee of San Francisco, and others wanted to not allow them to even open new stores.

Mayor Michael Bloomberg among others pointed out there was no leg for them to do that and stand on.

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TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#505: Aug 14th 2012 at 9:14:04 AM

To be honest, I don't oppose Chicago saying "no, you can't have a store here" except that it's out of their authority. I don't think there's anything morally wrong with it. The problem was that it was out of their authority.

Obviously, if they're funding criminal enterprises-as hate speech groups are criminal enterprises-then of course they should be treated negatively by the law. But I should note, firms opposing gay marriage isn't enough to be labeled a criminal enterprise. You really have to go one up and be the Westboro Baptist Church or the like-actively antagonizing people into attacking you and then suing them or something like that.

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
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#506: Aug 14th 2012 at 9:31:26 AM

My point exactly. Much of what myself, Abstract, Raven, and others are saying becomes clear if you check out the Gay Rights and America thread when the whole Chick-Fil-A thing blew up.

You had people saying Cathy funded hate groups and that alone made it legal to discriminate against Chick-Fil-A. If you read through that thread you see just how suspect most people's grasp of freedom of speech is. And the worst part is, many of them, when corrected, only got more recalcitrant.

You can feel however you want about a business, and if you want to, you have no obligation to patronize them. But you cannot block a law-abiding business out of your own personal disgust with their practices.

You are right, it's completely outside of their authority, and deliberately so, because the Founding Fathers, for all their shit, were smart enough to know that these were precisely the kind of abuses that would occur.

Again, with the backing of hate speech laws, their arrogant presumption would've been even more difficult to stop.

edited 14th Aug '12 9:31:53 AM by TheStarshipMaxima

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TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#507: Aug 14th 2012 at 9:39:40 AM

Again, that depends on the specific legislation. If the legislation was unjust-it criminalized activity that should not be criminal-you have a point. However, if the activity should indeed be criminal, then Chik-Fil-A, donating to criminal sponsors, would itself be criminal.

You keep insisting on talking in the abstract, because I don't think there's been a single real-life instance of hate speech legislation that we've brought up that you've actually been opposed to.

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
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#508: Aug 14th 2012 at 9:40:58 AM

What's abstract about a real thing that was in almost every mainstream news outlet? Facts don't stop being facts because you don't approve of them, you know.

edited 14th Aug '12 9:41:16 AM by TheStarshipMaxima

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Jhimmibhob Since: Dec, 2010
#509: Aug 14th 2012 at 9:50:55 AM

If you mean hate speech to mean things like defamation, incitement to riot, and fighting words, US already has laws prohibiting those.

Well put, and there we have it in a nutshell. I believe there are also existing laws against direct suborning of felonies, treason, and similar malfeasance. In other words, the kind of speech that poses direct threats to public order and the safety of others is already proscribed. And there is no other kind of speech under the sun that ought to be proscribed—though in any functioning civil society worthy of the term, many extremes of opinion ought to serve as a de facto expulsion ticket from polite company.

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#510: Aug 14th 2012 at 9:59:13 AM

Maxima: There are no laws prohibiting what the groups Chik-Fil-A donates to. If there were indeed laws prohibiting what those groups do, you would need to see what those laws are.

Why not give an example of a law that would make one of the firms Chik-Fil-A contributes to criminal, and then ask whether or not Chik-Fil-A donating to a now criminal organization makes prohibiting their localization in Chicago right or wrong.

For instance, those little camp things where they basically yell at you continuously until you say you're not gay-the conversion camps. Should those remain legal? If they were made illegal and the firms that fund those camps continue to fund them, and Chik-Fil-A funds said criminal enterprises, should Chicago still be all like "Chil-Fil-A, come on dooooooooown?"

abstractematics Since: May, 2011
#511: Aug 14th 2012 at 10:01:30 AM

@King Zeal

No it doesn't. Give us an example of a country with hate speech laws where that viewpoint has been shut down altogether. As in, not allowed to express that viewpoint ever.

You're not understanding my point. I'm talking about formulating hate speech laws if they would outlaw views. Your post is hate speech in a much narrower sense, which I already answered multiple times.

Differing views can exist, but they cannot be expressed equally. For example, I'm free to believe that clothes are really evil alien in disguie. I can tell anyone I want to, in private, that this is the case and spread my ideas. I can propose to Congress that everyone should get rid of clothes. I can even get rid of clothes in my private home or in communities which share my view.

I cannot, however, run around naked in public places to push my viewpoint.

Similarly, hate groups have whatever means at their disposal to spread their ideas to private or political parties. They shouldnt be allowed to harm the peace of others with it.

Being naked in public is not a viewpoint so I don't know why you're bringing that up.

King Zeal, don't assume that you have to disagree when you respond to me. In the end, you're largely repeating what I said already.

Now using Trivialis handle.
KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#512: Aug 14th 2012 at 11:09:40 AM

You're not understanding my point. I'm talking about formulating hate speech laws if they would outlaw views. Your post is hate speech in a much narrower sense, which I already answered multiple times.

But, I repeat, NO ONE is talking about this. Why do you keep bringing it up?!

Being naked in public is not a viewpoint so I don't know why you're bringing that up.

Oh it can be a viewpoint as much as hate speech can.

King Zeal, don't assume that you have to disagree when you respond to me. In the end, you're largely repeating what I said already.

Because you keep repeating straw positions that have nothing to do with what anyone is arguing.

What's abstract about a real thing that was in almost every mainstream news outlet? Facts don't stop being facts because you don't approve of them, you know.

That doesn't address his point. It's an abstract if you can't name an example of hate speech laws in practice that have resulted in totalitarianism.

edited 14th Aug '12 11:13:11 AM by KingZeal

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#513: Aug 14th 2012 at 11:13:45 AM

"People should be naked in public" is a viewpoint. BEING naked in public is not a viewpoint.

edited 14th Aug '12 11:14:32 AM by TheyCallMeTomu

abstractematics Since: May, 2011
#514: Aug 14th 2012 at 11:33:40 AM

[up]Indeed.

But, I repeat, NO ONE is talking about this. Why do you keep bringing it up?!

I've made it crystal clear that I didn't imply that just any hate speech laws will silence views. I said that if someone is proposing that society filter out unwanted views, I would oppose it. I was responding to breadloaf about this point because I wanted to be sure what he thought of this. Now I know.

Every time I thought we reached a common ground, some post seems to challenge it, and I have to repeat myself. I hope we're done now.

Summary:

  • Simply yelling insults just out of spite and "throwing rocks" is hate speech.
  • Actual legit arguments with aim to proper discourse (e.g. criticisms towards homosexuality or smoking or whatever, that is formulated in this manner) is not hate speech.
  • I assume everyone agrees with this.

edited 14th Aug '12 11:37:18 AM by abstractematics

Now using Trivialis handle.
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
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#515: Aug 14th 2012 at 12:06:46 PM

That doesn't address his point. It's an abstract if you can't name an example of hate speech laws in practice that have resulted in totalitarianism.

I cannot, as I don't know enough about the affairs of other countries to make an informed comment.

But...what does that have to do with what I said?

To me that's like somebody saying we cannot permit the release of a biologically engineered virus into a civilian area and being told "where can you show the actual effects of a biologically engineered virus into a civilian area?" The point of arguing this is to not have to actually find out.

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TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#516: Aug 14th 2012 at 12:20:40 PM

Maxima, the point is, there are examples of hate speech legislation in other countries that have not fallen into totalitarianism.

The better analogy is "If we put flouride in the water, the government will control everyone's minds!" "Okay, so why isn't the government controlling everyone's minds in the UK?"

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#517: Aug 14th 2012 at 12:26:11 PM

Excellent point Tomu. But then, if you were to suggest putting flouride into the water, people wouldn't care that it causes no harm in the UK. We'd say "Don't put any flouride in the water."

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TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#518: Aug 14th 2012 at 12:28:25 PM

Unless you can prove that it improves the dental care of the population.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_fluoridation_controversy

Anyway, it's just an analogy. The reason I brought it up is because your reasoning is similar to the people who claimed that it was a communist plot.

edited 14th Aug '12 12:30:05 PM by TheyCallMeTomu

KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#519: Aug 14th 2012 at 12:38:57 PM

"People should be naked in public" is a viewpoint. BEING naked in public is not a viewpoint.

In the same way, "I think homosexuality is wrong" is a viewpoint. "Hey, fag, I hope you choke on a cock and die!" is not.

Besides that, naked protests are quite common.

edited 14th Aug '12 12:42:12 PM by KingZeal

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#520: Aug 14th 2012 at 12:40:14 PM

No. "I hope you choke and die!" is a viewpoint.

Choking a homosexual to death is not a viewpoint.

SAYING "I hope you choke and die!" is likewise not a viewpoint-it is an action that conveys said viewpoint.

edited 14th Aug '12 12:40:45 PM by TheyCallMeTomu

KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#521: Aug 14th 2012 at 12:42:52 PM

So then as I said, being naked in public CAN be a viewpoint, because it's used as a sign of protest or expression all the time.

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#522: Aug 14th 2012 at 12:43:49 PM

Now you're just being obtuse.

An action is not a viewpoint. Period. You may use an action to convey a viewpoint, but that doesn't make it a viewpoint. This semantics argument is meaningless.

KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#523: Aug 14th 2012 at 12:45:10 PM

Then as I said, hate speech is as much a viewpoint, because you can use hate speech to express a viewpoint, but that does not mean the hate speech in itself is a viewpoint.

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#524: Aug 14th 2012 at 12:46:40 PM

Oh, okay, I was misreading your position. Yes, Hate Speech is not a view point.

My apologies for the confusion, that's my bad ;x

edited 14th Aug '12 12:46:51 PM by TheyCallMeTomu

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
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#525: Aug 14th 2012 at 12:54:30 PM

I have a question, what is the problem if someone says "Gays need to choke and die!" ?

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