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Sociology Vs Linguistic Fantasy Worldbuilding

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NewGeekPhilosopher Wizard Basement from Sydney, Australia Since: Jul, 2009
Wizard Basement
#1: Jul 19th 2012 at 8:21:06 AM

I like Discworld's version of Fantasy Worldbuilding via sociology like the way society is run by ideas versus thinking a language is a sufficient excuse to fill pages in worldbuilding a Fantasy Doorstopper.

My reasoning for this is, the more care people who write fantasy put into explaining why fantasy societies/races act the way they do/what their societies value, the less cliched it seems to be and the made up languages don't baffle and confuse.

Pratchett's also an interesting case because his version of the fantasy tropes somehow allowed his fantasy world to evolve past the medieval high fantasy tropes that are everpresent in the genre even in Game Of Thrones, a bleak, joyless fantasy series that makes me feel sorry for the people who liked lighthearted superhero comics only to wake up one day and find out Watchmen was the new hotness.

There's a lot of potential to save the fantasy genre from Tolkienesque cliches and unnecessary doorstopper as default publishing trends by taking more care with the cultures/societal values of each imagined species that could reflect how sociology could be implimented as an alternative to non-linguist trained fantasy worldbuilders.

Hell Hasn't Earned My Tears
Benluke Some guy. from United States Since: Jun, 2012
Some guy.
#2: Jul 19th 2012 at 10:05:36 AM

I'm having trouble understanding what's you point, exactly. The only thing I got out of that is that you like Terry Pratchett, in which case you have excellent taste.

edited 19th Jul '12 10:06:18 AM by Benluke

ChocolateCotton Xkcd Since: Dec, 2010
#3: Jul 19th 2012 at 10:59:50 AM

From what I understand, you are saying that fantasy worlds should be built with a foundation in culture and values rather than language, yes?

I'd argue, though, that they're really two aspects of the same thing. A well-developed language can inform a lot about the culture. Use of metaphors, swears, pronouns, honorifics- all of these things and more are parts of a language that can tell a lot about the values and attitudes of the culture.

Basically, sociology and linguistics are very, very far from mutually exclusive.

NewGeekPhilosopher Wizard Basement from Sydney, Australia Since: Jul, 2009
Wizard Basement
#4: Jul 19th 2012 at 12:37:55 PM

To explain my point better, let's give some examples of what could happen with a sociology worldbuilding exercise:

You have a matriarchal society where women rule with an iron fist, because they're Changelings capable of spawning from some pit of magic so volatile even smoking near the thing will spawn a faerie child from it. As you can imagine, the utter ruination of traditional roles as we Earthlings know for men and women by this development mean that men are sent to live with far "wussier" women from other countries while the women of this nation designed to point out how ridiculous shit would have to get real enough to warrant comments of misandry being justified in the real world before you could say that without looking like a sheltered idiot continue to castrate captured male soldiers from other nations before beating them and sending them home humiliated and wishing for death.

The women from the occupied nation this Amazonian Hellhole treats like some kind of Canada arrangement aren't so sure about these ideals of outright man hating, but aren't convinced patriarchy is the answer to these problems either. They have a democracy instead of a queen and are, like their sister nation, technologically advanced enough to have televisions and the internet.

In a situation such as this, somebody like Joffrey from Game Of Thrones would have been dragged away by their own guards while he screams "But... what the hell is this democracy? I'M A KING! YOU CAN'T JUST GET RID OF ME LIKE THIS! THIS KINGDOM IS NOTHING WITHOUT ME! NOTHIIIIIIING..." feebly while the people laugh at the idea they didn't think of a House of Parliament based constitution years ago. Having a post-feudalism worldbuilding scenario like this puts both these countries in the odd position of "Wait a minute, why are these Amazon bitches voting out their horrible leaders? Do they not have the vote as we do?" diplomacy talks with other, less matriarchal nations in their UN.

That... THAT is my ideal vision of how fantasy literature can evolve past castles, kings and feudalism into something just as politically interesting but not necessarily grimdark as Science Fiction literature can be. Are there further questions about my master plan?

Hell Hasn't Earned My Tears
Benluke Some guy. from United States Since: Jun, 2012
Some guy.
#5: Jul 19th 2012 at 12:59:34 PM

Huh, I believe the Worldbuiding forum would be a better place for this discussion.

So, basically, you're saying that fantasy could do with post medieval cultures. I don't see how linguistics have anything to with that, exactly. I wouldn't mind more non-middle ages settings, sure, but how does whether or not the author creates a conlang would that?

edited 19th Jul '12 1:01:47 PM by Benluke

Jordan Azor Ahai from Westeros Since: Jan, 2001
Azor Ahai
#6: Jul 19th 2012 at 2:09:59 PM

A Song of Ice and Fire, while definitely using the tropes of Medieval European Fantasy, isn't really an example of linguistics- I think there's probably 10 words of the two fictional languages of the series combined, if that. I'd say the series is pretty sociological in examining how values held in a medieval-style society would play out.

Hodor
ChocolateCotton Xkcd Since: Dec, 2010
#7: Jul 19th 2012 at 2:28:39 PM

[up] Agreed. The only major writer who used "linguistic worldbuilding" I can actually think of off the top of my head is Tolkien.

Aondeug Oh My from Our Dreams Since: Jun, 2009
Oh My
#8: Jul 19th 2012 at 2:46:34 PM

I like the idea of building from a linguistic base, but I know very little about how languages work. At the moment I tend to build from religious bases. Specifically from a mythological base. Myths are just where I happen to naturally start...

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#9: Jul 19th 2012 at 5:41:12 PM

Tolkien was notable for basically saying "I like to play with artificial languages, but languages can't exist in a vacuum, so I'll invent an artificial history to go with it" (said history being The Silmarillion). So he literally did his worldbuilding to support his language because he found the language part more interesting. I don't know of anyone else who has done things that way, ever.

edited 19th Jul '12 5:41:59 PM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Jordan Azor Ahai from Westeros Since: Jan, 2001
Azor Ahai
#10: Jul 19th 2012 at 5:48:20 PM

I also have to say that I really like the Discworld series, but I think that it is a well-done example of a style that is itself often poorly done- having a setting with very close parallels to the real world/the present, and what I guess I'd call "world-building via puns".

Discworld works well because Pratchett does do some world-building and make it more than Like Reality, Unless Noted (the more recent books are weaker in part because the real world parallels are more anvilicious).

One of the best use of language I've encountered in fantasy is the Book Of The New Sun, which is really masterful in the use of exospeak.

edited 19th Jul '12 5:49:51 PM by Jordan

Hodor
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#11: Jul 19th 2012 at 6:40:00 PM

I haven't read Book Of The New Sun, but I read The Wizard Knight. Gene Wolfe is a crazy, crazy person.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
DoktorvonEurotrash Lex et Veritas from Not a place of honour (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#12: Jul 20th 2012 at 2:13:27 PM

Constructed languages aren't at all vital to writing fantasy. (More writers would do well to remember this.)

Interesting fact: The Book Of The New Sun doesn't contain a single made-up word. All those words for exotic or futuristic phenomena are archaic or rare English words.

EDIT: I also agree with Jordan in general on Discworld. It has good worldbuilding (see, for example, how it reconstructs the "dwarves are greedy" fantasy cliché), but it runs on Rule of Funny more than anything else.

edited 21st Jul '12 6:53:55 AM by DoktorvonEurotrash

tricksterson Never Trust from Behind you with an icepick Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Never Trust
#13: Jul 20th 2012 at 3:35:43 PM

[up]x4 Keep in mind that Tolkien was a professor of linguistics so he had a, if not unique, at least rare perspective on the whole business.

Trump delenda est
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#14: Jul 20th 2012 at 7:41:41 PM

From what I've read in forewords and what not, most writers start with a map, rather than a language.

Fight smart, not fair.
syvaris Since: Dec, 2009
#15: Jul 22nd 2012 at 2:18:35 PM

[up] Well I guess I'm 0 for two then. No map, no language, just a twelve page sketch up of how the various cultures act etc.

You will never love a women as much as George Lucas hates his fans.
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#16: Jul 23rd 2012 at 7:24:50 AM

I'm trying to remember who that was, but I think they were all human and functioned fairly similarly. Perhaps it was Eddings?

Fight smart, not fair.
MasterGhandalf Since: Jul, 2009
#17: Jul 23rd 2012 at 9:18:51 AM

Eddings confirms (in The Rivan Codex, which is a collection of a lot of his worldbuilding material) that he started with a map, and he also doesn't use a whole lot of nonhumans (monsters and demons show up sometimes in The Belgariad and Ce'nedra's half-dryad, but all the major nations are human), so that does probably sound like who you're thinking of.

Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#18: Jul 23rd 2012 at 10:10:09 PM

Another popular one seems to be magic systems, but that seems to be dependent on them being constants throughout the verse. Some places like to have magic unique to each culture, and that's what shapes their culture in a sort of Personality Powers type of thing. Others prefer to just have the interaction itself be different (ie: Wheel Of Time).

Fight smart, not fair.
ATC Was Aliroz the Confused from The Library of Kiev Since: Sep, 2011
Was Aliroz the Confused
#19: Jul 23rd 2012 at 10:26:32 PM

Hats>Language >>>>>>>>>>>>>everything else >>>>>>>> Sociology

edited 23rd Jul '12 10:28:51 PM by ATC

If you want any of my avatars, just Pm me I'd truly appreciate any avatar of a reptile sleeping in a Nice Hat Read Elmer Kelton books
WarriorEowyn from Victoria Since: Oct, 2010
#21: Aug 2nd 2012 at 5:44:05 PM

To be precise, Tolkien was a philologist (philology = the study of words), which differs from linguistics in ways that I don't understand the issue deeply enough to explain.

And yes, he's basically the only example of linguistic worldbuilding. And in his books, it works excellently. The problem is that there's a vast number of authors who rip off his works by creating a generic high-fantasy setting with all the stock D&D races (which are themselves mostly flattened versions of Tolkien's), inventing some weird-sounding or epic-sounding place names, and calling it a day. That's not sociological or linguistic worldbuilding; it barely qualifies as worldbuilding at all.

edited 2nd Aug '12 6:20:23 PM by WarriorEowyn

Yuanchosaan antic disposition from Australia Since: Jan, 2010
antic disposition
#22: Aug 2nd 2012 at 6:10:42 PM

Philology is, as I understand it, the study of languages in the context of literature, history and culture. It's pretty neat; I would love to study it, but alas the course isn't available to me.

"Doctor Who means never having to say you're kidding." - Bocaj
Xtifr World's Toughest Milkman Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
World's Toughest Milkman
#23: Aug 2nd 2012 at 8:42:41 PM

Jack Vance's The Languages of Pao.

China Miéville's Embassytown.

Tolkien's not the only one, although his approach is much different from either Vance's or Miéville's. (For one thing, those two are both SF.) TLoP is based an interesting exploration of the now-discredited Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, but it's not Vance's fault that Science Marches On; it's still an entertaining book. Embassytown is more of an exploration of a Starfish Alien's language, and just how different it could be; the book is up for a Hugo Award this year.

Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.
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