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Serocco Serocco from Miami, Florida Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
Serocco
Jul 21st 2012 at 7:40:02 PM

Sosuke Aizen is a controversial case. Does he qualify as a Creator's Pet?

In RWBY, every girl is Best Girl.
kundoo Highly visible
Highly visible
Jul 22nd 2012 at 1:12:33 PM

[up]I don't think so. Heroes and BigBads hardly can be CreatorsPets, because no matter how invincible they are and how much screen time they get, that's all legitimate. The story is about them after all, even if vewers like supporting characters more.

Aug 5th 2012 at 12:26:47 PM

"It tends to be fairly obvious when a minor character suddenly gets vastly more screen time and Character Shilling then they notionally deserve. However, that alone does not qualify them for this trope. It is also necessary that the character be The Scrappy, which means that a large portion of the fanbase feel that they are a detriment to the work."

I've never been too clear on this point. Does it count as Character Shilling when the scenes and character in question are relevant to the plot? River Song's in a lot of episodes, but she's not there just to look awesome. She has a story arc that interconnects with the other characters.

Aug 5th 2012 at 12:32:54 PM

By definition, it can't be character shilling if nobody's saying anything the character hasn't earned. If River's explained to be a good shot, for example, that's followed up with River actually taking out a room full of aliens. I saw someone on the discussion page claim "the story is shilling her!", but shilling means that River must be displaying unearned praise, which she isn't.

So I actually came over here because this has been sitting for about two weeks and I'd like to take action on it. Again, nobody has said anything about what to do about the entries like the Doctor Who one that have a mod note in spite of no apparent discussion on the entry that explain why it should be there. "They're Creator's Pet because they are" defeats the entire purpose of a cleanup.

edited 5th Aug '12 12:33:48 PM by Rebochan

OldManHoOh It's super effective. from England
It's super effective.
Aug 5th 2012 at 12:49:49 PM

Ask on the Doctor Who thread, maybe? That seems to be a reasonably sized pit of Rose and River-hate. Maybe you'll get an answer there. No, I'm not bitter.

edited 5th Aug '12 12:51:43 PM by OldManHoOh

Aug 5th 2012 at 2:38:50 PM

The point of the rewrite is removing fandom bitching, not adding more of it. The fact that a mod had to write a note ever is testament to the drama.

OldManHoOh It's super effective. from England
It's super effective.
Aug 5th 2012 at 7:05:30 PM

I understand, I'm just saying (a little in jest) that maybe you can find out WHY there's so much bile aimed at them in that thread.

Lionheart0 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
Aug 5th 2012 at 7:41:17 PM

I'm not a big fan of neither this nor The Scrappy. If anything, Creator's Pet should be reworked to be more like "Author Appeal" and made into a Trivia Trope describing how the Creator having a favorite character translates into their work.

A lot of the negative connotation/flame bait needs to be done away with because it's been the source of a lot of editing wars between people who hate and like a certain character.

edited 5th Aug '12 7:49:51 PM by Lionheart0

ccoa Ravenous Sophovore from the Sleeping Giant
Ravenous Sophovore
Aug 6th 2012 at 8:19:48 AM

I like the idea of reworking this to be Creator's Favorite and noting how it can be bad, but doesn't necessarily have to be.

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
Fighteer Geronimo! from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Geronimo!
Aug 6th 2012 at 8:33:30 AM

Characters cannot qualify for this trope if they are the protagonist or the antagonist, or are otherwise supposed to get a great deal of attention from the plot.

When we reworked this trope, we very carefully set it up to require all four elements: has to be The Scrappy (ergo, a significant portion of the fans think they detract from the work); has to get Character Shilling (generally, being talked up for an Informed Ability); has to get Character Focus over other more important characters in the story; and, ideally, should be acknowledged as receiving favoritism by Word of God.

I'm not specifically familiar with the Doctor Who example under consideration, but I know enough about the show to understand that if a character is the Doctor's companion; she will axiomatically be getting a lot of focus. This isn't unusual in any way. I also don't see how Character Shilling can apply unless the other actors all break character to expound on how awesome she is. And we'd have to have some kind of Word of God to demonstrate favoritism being applied to her by the writers. Merely being disliked by fans isn't enough; that's just The Scrappy.

The basic idea of Creator's Pet is that, when a character is disliked by the fans, the writers, rather than recognizing this and toning the character's role down, instead put the character in more and more scenes and get the other characters to talk him/her up in an attempt to ram their scrappy down fans' throats. Anything else is misuse.

edited 6th Aug '12 8:40:02 AM by Fighteer

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Stratadrake Dragon Writer
Dragon Writer
Aug 6th 2012 at 8:40:27 AM

^ Agree. (I for myself, relative to the Doctor Who series, have nothing particular against River Song.)

An Ear Worm is like a Rickroll: It is never going to give you up.
OldManHoOh It's super effective. from England
It's super effective.
Aug 6th 2012 at 11:58:12 AM

She gets increased focus, and the arc this past season is basically about her. That I can agree on. There's also a line in one episode about the Doctor liking her gunplay, even though he admits he shouldn't. Make of that what you will.

Doctor Who has such a Broken Base though. A "significant number" of fans think that much of 2005-2009 (and probably the most recent season) detracts from the Doctor Who franchise. That hasn't stopped ratings from being pretty much stable since the show's revival and tons of new fans lasting Russell T Davies' tenure and beyond.

When lines go "Rose was a very strange and base-breaking case of this" and "[River]'s arc in Series 6 [the most recently aired season] alone ended up breaking the base", is that making the argument in favour of keeping them tenuous?

Also, love her or leave her, what does "infallible saint who was The Doctor's one true love" even mean behind all that hyperbole? Is that an accurate portrayal of Rose's characterisation in series 2 and 4?

edited 6th Aug '12 12:05:25 PM by OldManHoOh

Lionheart0 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
Aug 7th 2012 at 6:49:12 PM

[up][up][up]I have to ask though, why does this only have to cover hated characters?

Fighteer Geronimo! from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Geronimo!
Aug 7th 2012 at 7:19:56 PM

[up] Because that's the definition of the trope. It requires The Scrappy as a precedent.

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Lionheart0 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
Aug 7th 2012 at 7:47:00 PM

[up]My thing though is, given all the edit wars involved in it, wouldn't it make sense to broaden it to consider any of the the author's favored character. Honestly, I'm pretty sure there's just as many characters that the author favors that end up becoming popular as there are characters who end up being scrappies.

Fighteer Geronimo! from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Geronimo!
Aug 7th 2012 at 7:50:11 PM

Author favoritism is not a trope in and of itself. At least, that is what the previous TRS topic that resulted in the creation of Creator's Pet decided.

If the problem is that people are misusing it for that concept, then we need to remove that misuse.

edited 7th Aug '12 7:50:49 PM by Fighteer

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Aug 8th 2012 at 4:04:04 PM

I'd like to point out that both Rose and River Song are not considered The Scrappy, so their entry would be deleted if we're using that as our first standard.

OldManHoOh It's super effective. from England
It's super effective.
Aug 8th 2012 at 6:11:13 PM

Exactly. At worst they're Base Breakers, and Rose undoubtedly has more fans than haters.

And if heroes and main villains can't really count as creator's pets, then should "Batman in Frank Miller's work and JLA: Act of God" (neither of which are "mainstream" DCU as far as I know), as well as Kate (the arguable female lead) of Lost and the various Final Fantasy people go?

My memory of post-season 1 Heroes is a bit fuzzy. Did Sylar count as a Big Bad throughout, or was his alleigance a bit on a whim?

edited 8th Aug '12 6:26:48 PM by OldManHoOh

Aug 8th 2012 at 6:18:11 PM

Has there even been that concrete a definition for The Scrappy? I thought it was pretty much "character a lot of people dislike." It's not like there's a certain percentage of the fan-base that's required to hate her.

Aug 8th 2012 at 6:29:11 PM

Scrappies seem to be characters that the majority of the fandom seems to hate. Merely being controversial can't cut it - Rose was so popular with viewers during her stint on the show that she almost got a spin-off (and it was her creator that nixed it.)

But I try not to get anywhere near that page due to it being a bit crazy. I will note that neither Rose nor River are on The Scrappy page though other Doctor Who characters are.

Fighteer Geronimo! from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Geronimo!
Aug 8th 2012 at 8:27:51 PM

The Scrappy is not merely a character that a few fans dislike. As noted, it is a character that the majority of fans dislike.

The reason why a hero or a Big Bad cannot be a Creator's Pet has nothing to do with their Scrappy status; it is because it is not abnormal for them to get large amounts of Character Focus. Complaining that they get too much screen time is illogical; they're the hero/villain!

edited 8th Aug '12 8:28:20 PM by Fighteer

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Aug 9th 2012 at 6:48:06 AM

As noted, it is a character that the majority of fans dislike.

Since when? The description doesn't say anything about requiring a majority.

And since there's no way of actually polling all the fans, it's impossible to tell who does or doesn't meet that requirement.

Fighteer Geronimo! from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Geronimo!
Aug 9th 2012 at 6:50:58 AM

Well, it needs more than just a Periphery Hatedom or casual dislike. You can always find someone who dislikes any character, if you look hard enough. But that's why The Scrappy is subjective, and so is Creator's Pet.

edited 9th Aug '12 6:51:21 AM by Fighteer

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Aug 9th 2012 at 7:53:51 AM

right.

About the specific examples being talked about, I think both they make a good case for both Rose and River fitting the last 3 requirements. They shouldn't be deleted on the basis that they don't have quite enough haters.

OldManHoOh It's super effective. from England
It's super effective.
Aug 9th 2012 at 8:11:18 AM

From the main Creator's Pet page:

"Unless it meets all of these criteria, then it doesn't fit."

Also, what makes them fit the third criterion?

edited 9th Aug '12 8:12:17 AM by OldManHoOh


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