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WaterBlap Blapper of Water Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Blapper of Water
Nov 18th 2017 at 9:48:59 PM

[up][up] I don't think that's a Defied Trope. The character needs to have some In-Universe expectation, understanding, or knowledge that a particular trope is about to happen, and then they need to attempt to stop the trope from being played straight.

From what I understand of Death Seeker, what you suggested might be a subversion depending on whether he tries to or really wants to kill himself.

[Edited to revise and add that I misread you at first. It's still not a defied ]

edited 18th Nov '17 9:51:46 PM by WaterBlap

[witty saying]
MarqFJA Fiat justitia, et pereat mundus from Saudi Arabia Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Fiat justitia, et pereat mundus
Nov 19th 2017 at 2:43:17 AM

[up][up] That's true, but being suicidal is the first step towards said particular method.

[up]

The character needs to have some In-Universe expectation, understanding, or knowledge that a particular trope is about to happen, and then they need to attempt to stop the trope from being played straight.
See, here's what I'm wondering about:
  • Does the character who does the trope-defying have be the Death Seeker himself/herself, or can it be another character?
  • Does the expectation/understanding/knowledge part require that the character know that Death Seeker is a trope?

When we are crushing the black hearts of our oppressors, we will find our hands blackened.
WaterBlap Blapper of Water Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Blapper of Water
Nov 19th 2017 at 5:23:03 AM

To the first bullet, I think it needs to be the character the example is saying is doing the defying, but I'm not sure.

For the second bullet, I am sure that it's not exactly a "no." That is, I think they need to know it's a pattern of some kind, or a cliche, or something that the audience expects. I don't think they need to know it's quote-unquote a "trope."

[witty saying]
MarqFJA Fiat justitia, et pereat mundus from Saudi Arabia Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Fiat justitia, et pereat mundus
Nov 19th 2017 at 5:31:46 AM

Recognizing as "a pattern of some kind, or a cliche, or something that the audience expects" implies that they know that it's something that happens in fiction, ergo that they know it's a trope even if they don't actually know the term "trope" itself.

When we are crushing the black hearts of our oppressors, we will find our hands blackened.
WaterBlap Blapper of Water Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Blapper of Water
Nov 19th 2017 at 5:38:08 AM

That seems to be written as though you disagree with me, but I don't see the point that we disagree on.

Your question had bolded emphasis on the term "trope," so I thought you were asking whether they knew about these things we call "tropes." Plus, not all patterns or expectations are things we have articles for, so it's a little bit more general but not saliently so.

edited 19th Nov '17 5:39:30 AM by WaterBlap

[witty saying]
MarqFJA Fiat justitia, et pereat mundus from Saudi Arabia Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Fiat justitia, et pereat mundus
Nov 19th 2017 at 8:44:07 AM

I'm trying to make sure that we're on the same page here by explaining what I'm understanding from that part of your post. The thing is, quite a few of the tropes we have catalogued are Truth in Television, and quite a few of those go further by having already been happening and recognized as real-life phenomena long before they gave rise to the tropes based on them; Death Seeker is among the tropes that fall into the first category, though I don't know whether it does fall into the second one. That's why I asked if the character doing the defying needs to know that Death Seeker is a character type that gets used in some fictional works (i.e. a trope).

edited 19th Nov '17 8:44:50 AM by MarqFJA

When we are crushing the black hearts of our oppressors, we will find our hands blackened.
WaterBlap Blapper of Water Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Blapper of Water
Nov 19th 2017 at 9:47:04 AM

Okay, I double checked Invoked Trope and Discussed Trope to contrast them with this (as it says on Defied Trope's page). With Invoked and Discussed, they would need to know that Death Seeker is a "trope" (e.g. "a character type that gets used in some fictional works"). I don't think they need to know that same information in order to Defy it, especially if Defied Trope "may sometimes lead to" Reality Ensues.

That's why I asked if the character doing the defying needs to know that Death Seeker is a character type that gets used in some fictional works (i.e. a trope).
Now that I have a better understanding of what page we're on (so to speak), my answer is "no." Just a plain no.

That's just my opinion, but I'm basing it off of our articles for Defied Trope, Invoked Trope, and Discussed Trope, as well as (part of) our articles on Reality Ensues and Averted Trope (which this obviously leads to in most cases).

My opinion from before is the same but I can be more precise. Cliches and patterns exist regardless of media, and they can be observed in everyday conversations and journalism respectively. You yourself can know of these things regardless of fiction and — dare I say it — regardless of TV Tropes. Thus, merely knowing these cliches and patterns exist does not necessitate that "you know it is a trope even if you don't actually know the term 'trope' itself." You don't need to, say, know that this pattern is a character type, just that it is some pattern you're familiar with.

Concerning audience expectations, I would say the same for them as "patterns." I'm not talking about Audience Reactions, though I suppose that would be easier to talk about.

[witty saying]
Nov 26th 2017 at 8:47:50 PM

I made a sandbox for PlayingWith.Hysterical Woman here, as it has a lot of problems.

May 11th 2018 at 3:53:29 PM

Is a Backfired Trope a thing? It's not a page, but is it a valid trope type?

Subverted Trope:

  • If the car drives into the pane of glass, but the glass endures and car bounces back, it is backfired.


PlayingWith.Trope Name:

This doesn't seem to fit what Subverted Trope says:

  • If the car hits the pane of glass because the driver thought it would be futile to attempt to avoid hitting the glass, it's enforced.

Help with possible disambig and redirect issues!
Unicorndance Logic Girl from Thames, N.Z. Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Logic Girl
Aug 16th 2018 at 8:16:05 PM

For every low there is a high.
Aug 18th 2018 at 4:26:16 PM

1. I do not think so.

2. I do not think so. At the every least, it should mention Alice getting arrested.

Unicorndance Logic Girl from Thames, N.Z. Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Logic Girl
Aug 18th 2018 at 10:06:16 PM

I fixed them. How did I do?

For every low there is a high.
Dec 28th 2018 at 5:10:21 PM

You did well.


Anyway, here is my first playing with page: Near-Villain Victory

How did I do?

Apr 28th 2019 at 1:51:43 AM

I think You Don't Look Like You might need some altering, as the troper who made the page was under the impression that the trope was about changes to a characters personality and appearance in an adaptation rather than just their appearance being changed.

Basic Trope: An adaptation makes many changes to a character, leaving it unregonizable from it's original incarnation.
  • Straight: In Alice Strikes Back our protagonist is a snarky anti-heroine in full body armor who differs greatly from the original show where she's a kind hearted girl in a simplistic superhero costume.
  • Exaggerated: Alice goes from an Innocent superheroine to a cyber-goth-raptor.
  • Downplayed: The only change done to Alice is her race.
  • Justified: Alice Strikes Back takes place in a Alternate Universe.
  • Inverted: Alice ends up closer to her original concept than her debut media.
  • Subverted: Turns out This Alice isn't the original one, but instead a descendent of her.
  • Double Subverted: However, she went through a personality change as well.
  • Parodied: Alice gets a new haircut. But now, not even her own mother can recognize her.
  • Zig-Zagged: Alice goes through a personality change, but it's only has her become more suspicious of others. Despite this, Bob is the only person who still recognizes her, and when she tries to go back to her old personality, he doesn't recognize her either.
  • Averted: Alice's design and behaviour remains consistent trought the years.
  • Enforced:
    • The team behind Alice Strikes Back is unfamiliar with the source material.
    • Alice needed to be redesign from scratch due to her original look and mannerisms being considered too "outdated" for today's viewers.
  • Lampshaded: "Hey Alice, you look... different. Did you got a new haircut?"
  • Invoked: Alice grew up and decided to develop a new image, as she felt that her old one didn't match her current mindset.
  • Exploited: After realizing that no one recognizes her anymore, she decides to start a new life with a new name.
  • Defied: Alice starts to change her personality, but she stops herself before it could become permanent.
  • Discussed: "It's strange how people can suddenly change between adventures. Let's hope everyone stayed the same."
  • Conversed: "I just hope that the characters stay the same when they release the sequel."

Bisected8 I'll smile after my third coffee. from Her Hackette Cave Relationship Status: I only want you gone
I'll smile after my third coffee.
Apr 28th 2019 at 3:22:55 AM

Yeah, the parts that refer to personality could do with being rewritten.

TV Tropes's No. 1 bread themed lesbian.
Candi Sorcerer in training from Closer to rimward than hubward Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
Sorcerer in training
Apr 28th 2019 at 4:18:52 PM

I was reading One-Winged Angel, and even though the description specifies it's a battle-boss-usually-ending trope, just on the Anime page, there's quite a few "X can turn into a nasty powerful monster" entries. I don't know enough about a lot of the works to clean it up myself. (Plus, well, I'm putting off chemistry homework that I need to get to...)

Card Games needs work too.

Coming back to where you started is not the same as never leaving. -Terry Pratchett
May 17th 2019 at 4:19:05 PM

Does this count as a deconstruction of Point-and-Laugh Shows?

These types of shows are especially harsh to people that society already marginalizes and gives extra scrutiny and harshness to: women, racial and ethnic minorities, religious minorities, LGBTQ+ people, people with disabilities, the mentally ill, poor people, etc.

May 19th 2019 at 6:19:40 AM

[up] It isn't. A deconstruction is supposed to be a work that explores the consequences of a trope in more detail than normal. This doesn't fit that description at all.

Jun 16th 2019 at 5:45:28 AM

PlayingWith.Black Blood says that it's just "Blood that is black".

Laconic and Main description seem to imply that it's Censorship-purposes only, though?

Help with possible disambig and redirect issues!
Adept from Online Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Aug 30th 2019 at 9:48:19 AM

The "Inverted" write-up in PlayingWith.Offscreen Teleportation doesn't actually seem like an example of an Inverted Trope. It's really just the trope played straight, but it only reverses who pulls off the trope.

That being said, can this trope actually be inverted?

Bisected8 I'll smile after my third coffee. from Her Hackette Cave Relationship Status: I only want you gone
I'll smile after my third coffee.
Aug 30th 2019 at 10:30:27 AM

I'd called it a reasonable inversion, since the general idea is that the villain can somehow be a step ahead of their victim and surprise them.

So the villain getting surprised in that way is a reasonable inversion.

TV Tropes's No. 1 bread themed lesbian.
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