Five-Man Band cleanup

Was a decision reached on the Firefly example?

The example on the trope page is:

Firefly (Before the series began):

• The Leader: Mal
• The Lancer: Zoe
• The Big Guy: Jayne
• The Smart Guy: Wash and Kaylee
• The Chick: Inara
• Sixth Ranger: River, Simon, Shepherd Book

It's trying to shoehorn nine characters into a five-character trope, and is focusing on a period of time before the show even began while including characters that only met after the show began.

The rest of my issues with the example can be found in this post.

I vote to cut.

Delete it as well.

Cut it.

Nine characters... five man band... uh, no. For that sort of thing we have The Magnificent Seven Samurai groupings. Cut it.

I think we should remove anything saying 'The Mentor' or 'Team Pet'. I'm less sure about Sixth Ranger, but the other two are a part of the show, not the team.

edited 11th Jul '14 3:39:09 PM by Tightwire

The Mentor, Team Pet and Sixth Ranger shouldn't be included in the listing for the Five-Man Band, I agree. They're part of the cast, but not part of the Five-Man Band itself. Same for any other character type that isn't one of the five core band members: The Voice with an Internet Connection, the Team Mom, the Tagalong Kid...

Sixth Ranger is especially out of place, because a Sixth Ranger is by definition, a full team member who is added after the others: "Any new character that joins an established ensemble and knocks it out of one of the traditional categories (and possibly into another) is a Sixth Ranger" Any Five-Man Band that has a Sixth Ranger has stopped being a Five-Man Band. The example could note that it was a FMB until the Sixth Ranger showed up, like

X-Show page

• Five-Man Band: Only for the first season and a half. The Five Man Band was Angus, The Leader; Quent, The Lancer and Angus's second-in-command; Joey, The Smart Guy, a lawyer and font of Encyclopaedic Knowledge; Cholmondeley, The Big Guy, whose preferred attack is Car Fu (of the "throwing a vehicle" variety); and The Chick, Elise, Angus' niece. In Season 2, Episode 7, "But, Daa-aaad", Sixth Ranger Oberlin, Joey's son, was added to the team and they were no longer a Five Man Band.

edited 11th Jul '14 4:15:45 PM by Madrugada

Yeah, the Sixth Ranger is a situation trope, not a character. As You Know, when somebody comes to the team late, that's a Sixth Ranger setup, but it's not got much to do with the character itself, unlike a trope like The Lancer, which can actually be a type of character.

Not that having a Sixth Ranger means a band is automatically no longer Five Man, because sometimes the Sixth Ranger is actually an every-so-often character, but it's a cue for the possible addition of more guys to the team, and if the Sixth Ranger settles down, then yes, it's no longer a Five-Man Band.

The reason that happened was because of the main page having all those 'associated tropes' that weren't really associated at all.

The point being, there can be Team Pets and Mentors and so on, and it still can be a Five man Band, but they're not a part of the group.

edited 12th Jul '14 3:50:11 PM by Tightwire

More cuts for everyone.

Dracula: the Musical — six zero-context entries (with the sixth ranger and tagalong kid), The Hero lead, The Chick missing, some members are doubled into irrelevant archetypes

Epica — six zero-context entries with ranger, musical sextet

Guns N' Roses — seven people in six zero-context entries, musical ensemble

High School Musical — ten people in seven zero-context entries, The Heart listed

High School Of The Dead — seven people and a dog in seven zero-relevant-context entries (with tagalong kid and team pet). While some archetypes look pretty feasible (the whiny good-intentions chick or the self-sacrificial leader), the numbers are off. And The Smart Guy can't be played by two people. Not having knowledge of the manga, I'm not sure how bad Five Bad Band from the same works page is. Looks pretty bad, zero-context and all.

edited 25th Jul '14 5:47:28 AM by NemuruMaeNi

I came across a "Seven-Man Band" on IT and a Nine-Man Band on Dinosaur. Definite misuse?

• Seven Man Band:
  • The Hero: Bill Denbrough
  • The Lancer: Richie Tozier (Though, arguably the role of the lancer is a bit more vague. Richie does seem to play this role at certain key moments (the initial conflict on Neibolt Street, the final conflict with It) but one could argue that Ben Hanscom is the true Lancer of the Losers' Club, as it is his arrival in the Barrens and the subsequent symbolic building of the dam (under Ben's foreman-like direction), and eventually his admission of responsibility in the matter to Officer Nell that even Richie admits truly cemented the group together. Also arguably, the author spends more time developing and examining Ben's character than Richie's. Typically, though, if anyone takes charge in a given situation other than Bill, it tends to be Ben, and not Richie, who usually just pops up and offers sometimes endearing, often annoying comic relief. This latter is usually not the role of the lancer.
  • The Smart Guy: Stan Uris
  • The Big Guy: Ben Hanscom. Due to his sheer size, the only member of the Losers' Club capable of competing with Henry Bowers physically (once he gets over his fear, or whenever Beverly is threatened).
  • The Chick: Beverly Marsh
  • The Sixth Ranger: Mike Hanlon
  • The Quiet One: Eddie Kasprak

• Five-Man Band:
  • The Hero: Aladar
  • The Smart Guy: Zini
  • The Chick: Suri
  • The Big Guy: Baylene
  • The Lancer: Eema (in an extent)
  • The Heart: Plio
  • Team Pet: Url
  • Sixth Ranger: Bruton
  • The Mentor: Yar (but only before the beginning of the journey)

Definitely looks like misuse to me.

Agreed on all accounts.

Yep. Not "five and only five"? Not a Five-Man Band. That simple. Besides, the first one is missing The Smart Guy, and the second one has a shoehorned The Lancer — you can still see the shoehorn sticking out of the example ("to an extent" — that's the handle of the shoehorn.).

edited 26th Jul '14 11:33:11 PM by Madrugada

When things reach over five, they're aimed at 'The Seven magnificent Samurai" thing, which is a perfectly valid team makeup in and of itself.

^ Sometimes. Not all groups of seven are that trope — it's a whole plot reference — you need the team and the mission both. Not all groups are one of the named team dynamics. That's the thing that more people need to remember.

Found another one.

Live Action TV, Alias. The characters are all shoe-horned, it's picking and choosing which of the cast to use or ignore, and there are too many listed.

Sydney may be the main character but she's not usually The Leader, Marcus is often on field tech/back-up duty, so not The Big Guy. There are two entries each for The Smart Guy and The Mentor, and a male character is The Chick.

edited 27th Jul '14 3:56:37 PM by Wyldchyld

Deleted Alias from the Five Man Band page.

Five Man Band: CSI (seasons 1-8)

The Leader Nick Stokes

The Lancer Sara Sidle

The Big Guy Warrick Brown

The Smart Guy Greg Sanders

The Chick Catherine Willows

The Mentor Gil Grissom

What the hell was the editor who added this smoking? Nick as The Leader and Gil as The Mentor? NO! There might be a five man band there, with Gil as the Leader, Catherine as the Lancer, Nick as the Big Guy, and Greg as the Smart Guy, with Sara as the Chick, but that leaves out Warrick, and even so, neither Nick nor Warrick was The Big Guy as in "the one who was most reliant on physical strength". And in the early seasons, Greg was only seen in the lab; Warrick was a more integral part of the team.

So, there's mismatching of roles, cherrypicking characters out of the ensemble to include, misuse of The Big Guy, and promotion of a minor character into the ensemble when he wasn't regularly a part of it.

edited 27th Jul '14 4:41:04 PM by Madrugada

I just pulled this from Film/Jurassic Park

• Five-Man Band:
  • The Hero: Alan Grant
  • The Lancer: Ellie Sattler
  • The Smart Guys: Ian Malcolm and Ray Arnold
  • The Big Guy: Robert Muldoon
  • The Heart: John Hammond
  • The Chick: Donald Gennaro
  • Tagalong Kids: Lex and Tim

^ Bleh, all wrong.

Uh, yeah, that entry is rubbish bin worthy.

Too many people, two people share a role, incorrect archetypes; all wrong.

Removing:

• Jesus Christ Superstar. Zero-context. Ignoring the team dynamics requirement. Random pick of characters to fill the slots. (* Five-Man Band: ** The Hero: Jesus ** The Lancer: Judas ** The Smart One: Simon ** The Big Guy: Peter ** The Chick: Mary)
• Lacuna Coil — five zero-context entries, musical quintet
• Lamb of God — five zero-context entries, musical quintet, (probably-)male The Heart in place of The Chick
• LEDZEPPELIN — potholed under Four-Man Band, four zero-context entries, musical quartet, no Chick
• Make Mine Music — four people in six zero-context entries. Deprecated Hero as the lead, one person plays two roles. (* Five-Man Band: In Peter and The Wolf. **Peter: The Hero ** Sascha: The Lancer / The Smart Guy ** Sonia: The Chick ** Ivan: The Big Guy / Token Evil Teammate (at first, then subverted))
• Malignancy — potholed under Four-Man Band, four zero-context entries, musical quartet, no Chick
• Misery Index — same as Led Zeppelin and Malignancy
• Morbid Angel — same as above
• an offhand reference to some group at Music page as Five-Man Band. Irresponsible.
• an offhand reference at Music pushing Five-Man Band forth with musical ensemble as its denotation
• a mention at Music Intermediate Gods (one of the two was missing the chick; K-On! was the second and it's a different story or something >_<)
• a mention at Music Lesser Gods, reference to music ensemble
• MyMusic — discounting the kids/pets, it's seven people under five zero-context entries, people share roles; deprecated hero lead
• Neutral Milk Hotel — four people in four zero-context entries; musical ensemble, no chick

edited 4th Aug '14 3:25:53 AM by NemuruMaeNi

Removing:

• New Kids on the Block — misuse with authority, and natter. No females in sight. Potholed Heart instead of the Chick. Musical quintet. Zero-context.
• moved a mention at New Wave Music farther from implication of its being about musical ensembles
• Nightwish — six people in zero-context entries (with ranger); musical sextet (Thanks to Wikipedia, one can find out that even if this were about musical ensembles, then the chick here would be on lead vocals and a much later addition to the team than sixth ranger, just a note of hatred).
• N.W.A — had a pothole to FMB in lineup discussion; the separate FMB entry contained one crufty line about the group having had five members. Musical ensemble, zero-context.
• One Direction — five people in five zero-context entries; male Chick; musical quintet.
• Origin — Same as Led Zeppelin above.
• Pentatonix — five people in five zero-context entries; musical quintet.
• Pig Destroyer — five people in five zero-context entries, musical quintet, the heart in place of the chick
• Procol Harum — three options, all wrong in regards to role lineup, zero-context, problems with numbers, male chicks, deprecated hero leads. Musical ensemble.
• Pussycat Dolls — potholed under Five Girl Band, five people in five zero-context entries, musical quintet
• Rainbow — two and a half mentions without any explanation, or rather, without looking into the trope. No roles assignment, no context, no nothing. Musical ensemble.
• Rammstein — six people in six zero-context entries (w/ ranger), musical ensemble.
• Revocation — same as Led Zeppelin case above
• Rick Ross — five people in five zero-context entries; a peculiar variation of misuse, since it appears to be something like five rappers from a single recording label or something. Male chick.
• Rivers of Nihil — five people in five zero-context entries, musical ensemble, male heart in place of the chick
• Sabaton — same as above
• Shadows Fall — same as above
• Simple Plan — it had a "Duh" with a pothole to Captain Obvious page as explanation. Better luck next time.
• Slayer — same as Led Zeppelin case above
• Soundgarden — someone ninja'ed away the mention of FMB from this musical ensemble page recently (four zero-context entries). Mention here is to compare it against locked subpage of the trope itelf later.
• Space — Ten people in six zero-context entries (w/ rangers); musical ensemble, deprecated hero lead.
• Spawn of Possession — five people in five zero-context entries; musical ensemble, male heart in place of the chick
• Spice Girls — potholed under five-girls band; five people in five zero-context entries, musical quintet, the heart in place of the chick, females everywhere, hero lead. Also a parade of blatant zero-context potholes and examples. The second mention of FMB was in introductory. Removed into no-wiki-word "five girls" without much of an idea of what the original message of the troper who added it was.
• Spock's Beard — eight people in seven zero-context entries (w/ ranger and Non-Action Guy), musical ensemble, two role juggling, case of irrelevant role, deprecated hero lead. Male chick.
• Steel Panther — four people in five zero-context entries (and "The Smart Guy: Nope, but brains never got them laid anyway."), musical quartet; all-females.
• Suffocation — five people in five zero-context entries, male heart in place of the chick, musical ensemble.
• Suicide Silence — Same as above plus dog listed as Team Pet.

Special mention: Steps case looks properly, decently illustrated with context. First time I see something like this. Unless it's all twisted lies of course. edit: and it's all only in comparison. Current presentation of Big and Smart Guys leave so much to be desired that this example is teetering, about to be blasted just as well.

edited 4th Aug '14 9:55:31 PM by NemuruMaeNi

Removed shoehorned example from ReRevenge of the Island: An Alternate Reality

Male "Fifth Ranger" in place of The Chick. No females in the group.

edited 4th Aug '14 10:31:02 PM by Gideoncrawle

Removed another from Keepers of the Elements

All-female, The Heart instead of The Smart Guy, misuse of The Big Guy (they're all slim girls with elemental powers), zero-context.