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SeptimusHeap from Bern, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Jun 18th 2012 at 10:18:36 AM

[up]Re #3, you mean some kind of notability standard?

Jun 18th 2012 at 10:29:25 AM

I know that public figures like presidents are often used as fictional characters- such as G. W. Bush will be a cheery lackwit or Obama will be a Sidley Whiplash, so I can see us collecting those instances.

Jun 18th 2012 at 10:32:13 AM

[up][up] In the case of U.S. Presidents, I do think that there should be a notability standard. TINSTAN applies to works. For the same reason that you don't get a page (outside of your troper page), nor I. If I appeared as a character in several works, then I get a page. Since I don't, I don't.

In other words, we should give real people Useful Notes pages as they pertain to fictional works and their appearances therein. If they don't fit in at least that (fairly broad) criterion, then their page isn't really meeting the scope of this site's purpose.

edited 18th Jun '12 10:33:45 AM by DarkConfidant

Fighteer Geronimo! from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Geronimo!
Jun 18th 2012 at 11:14:25 AM

Precisely. This has to do with being on mission. TINSTAN has never applied to Real Life on this wiki, and we are demonstrably poorer at documenting encyclopedic facts than Wikipedia, so let's let them do that.

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32_Footsteps Think of the mooks! from Just north of Arkham Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
Jun 18th 2012 at 12:09:03 PM

Well, I think a discussion of the notability standard in general would be a different Wiki Talk thread (I've had some issues with TINSTAN in the past because I think the name is misleading). This would be discussing when to give a president a page to describe them in works.

My guess would be the standard three-example rule. For example, George Washington is listed as having appeared in more than three works; he's fine to keep. Meanwhile, discounting references to things named after him, Millard Fillmore only appears in media once (although he's referenced a few more for offscreen deeds). So I think it's safe to cut him.

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
Fighteer Geronimo! from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Geronimo!
Jun 18th 2012 at 12:17:03 PM

We're getting into the "person as trope" argument again. I don't believe that to be the case. The only reason to have an article on a person who is not a Creator is if a troper would gain useful information about them from visiting such an article that is often misconveyed in fiction.

For example, we have UsefulNotes.Evolution because the concept is so often gotten wrong in fiction. A writer looking at that article could use it to cite correct facts. George Washington is a prominent enough figure in media that it's worthwhile to have a Useful Notes on him to discuss such popular myths as the cherry tree and the Will Not Tell a Lie thing.

Correspondingly, we might have an article on Barack Obama to remind people that yes, he was in fact born in the United States and is not a Muslim — although that's stretching things as those misstatements mainly occur in the political media, not in fiction. It would be more appropriate in the context of some future time in which those become the popular myths about him.

edited 18th Jun '12 12:17:29 PM by Fighteer

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32_Footsteps Think of the mooks! from Just north of Arkham Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
Jun 21st 2012 at 4:05:41 AM

Okay, that's a fair point, but we're still being fuzzy here. What should be the guideline as to what non-creators get a page on TV Tropes?

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
Feather7603 Devil's Advocate from Yggdrasil
Jun 21st 2012 at 6:50:57 AM

In response to #25 and other relating posts: What about Historical Domain Characters? Those are Real Life people who're frequently appearing in works with more or less modified characteristics.

I'd say those count the same way as Public Domain Characters, in that they're not necessarily portrayed realistically, but as Characters as Devices or otherwise not as their Real Life selves. Those could use a page describing who they actually were, though that would be Useful Notes.

edited 21st Jun '12 6:52:53 AM by Feather7603

The Internet misuses, abuses, and overuses everything.
SeptimusHeap from Bern, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Jun 21st 2012 at 6:54:48 AM

In my stance, real people or things that are often used with modified traits in fiction do get a page in /Main/ for the fictional depiction and Useful Notes for the real one.

Other real stuff gets an Useful Notes page if it's notable enough. But we need a notability standard there.

Fighteer Geronimo! from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Geronimo!
Jun 21st 2012 at 7:10:08 AM

I agree with Feather: Historical Domain Characters are tropes and can function as such. But we do need a notability standard for people as Useful Notes.

edited 21st Jun '12 7:10:21 AM by Fighteer

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Jun 21st 2012 at 7:11:45 AM

But should Dracula have his page in Main/? Seems like it would be best in a different namespace.

In either case, I agree with the notion that real life characters need to have a notability standard to get UsefulNotes/ pages, and that that notability standard needs to relate to how often these people show up in fictional (including Historical Fiction) works. These pages are on mission only so far as they help readers better understand various works in which they are included.

edited 21st Jun '12 7:14:20 AM by DarkConfidant

SeptimusHeap from Bern, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Jun 21st 2012 at 7:14:32 AM

Given that Useful Notes says To debunk common media stereotypes. someone suggested "at least 3 fictional references (not necessarily accurate)" or something similar, but 3 works seems a little low. Maybe "3 works that aren't about that person/item"

Jun 21st 2012 at 7:17:08 AM

3 works is fine, since that's the minimum number of uses we need for a trope to get a page. However, the works obviously should not include biographies or other non-fictional accounts.

I nuance it like that because a fictional work starring George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, Abraham Lincoln, and Teddy Roosevelt traveling through time to defeat an alien invasion would certainly be under the jurisdiction of this site.

SeptimusHeap from Bern, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Jun 21st 2012 at 7:22:45 AM

OK, so:

  • The "modified for fiction" forms (like Dracula) stay in /Main/ as Public Domain Characters.
  • Real items not fictionalized stay in Useful Notes
  • They need at least 3 references within works of fiction that aren't primarily about them (but not a just-in-passing mention either)

Is this what we are getting to?

Jun 21st 2012 at 7:27:23 AM

Well, I don't know if I agree with not counting works "not primarily about them".

Isn't there a new movie: Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Slayer coming out soon?

SeptimusHeap from Bern, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Jun 21st 2012 at 7:30:06 AM

[up]On second thought, it might not be necessary.

Jun 21st 2012 at 7:31:26 AM

Could you please elaborate? I'm not sure I follow what you mean by 'might not be necessary'.

SeptimusHeap from Bern, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Jun 21st 2012 at 7:36:33 AM

[up]Just ignore it. I was just worrying that super-specific stuff like Real-Person Fic was so widespread that it would set a far too low standard.

Nightwire Humans inferior. Ultron superior. Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Humans inferior. Ultron superior.
Jun 21st 2012 at 8:42:59 AM

I've noticed that trope pages on RL people, particularly political figures, is pretty problematic, with controversal opinions and egregious Morality Alignment tropes all over the place. Which is against the wiki's "a man's hero is another man's villain" policy. Many people would not feel comfortable with that mold of black-and-white thinking. RL people are too complex and nuanced to be shoehorned into "hero" or "villain". As such, I propose getting rid of them entirely.

edited 21st Jun '12 8:45:14 AM by Nightwire

Bite my shiny Vibranium ass, Avengers.
SeptimusHeap from Bern, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Jun 21st 2012 at 8:43:55 AM

[up]We have a so-far-not-very-well-enforced policy against troping real people.

Fighteer Geronimo! from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Geronimo!
Jun 21st 2012 at 8:47:09 AM

We absolutely want to get rid of any morality tropes attached to real people.

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Nightwire Humans inferior. Ultron superior. Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Humans inferior. Ultron superior.
Jun 21st 2012 at 8:48:53 AM

I just don't think we should have politicians on TV Tropes. The wiki is only interested in the analysis of fiction and fictional characters, and it also makes for excellent Flame Bait and Natter material.

[up]That works too.

edited 21st Jun '12 8:49:29 AM by Nightwire

Bite my shiny Vibranium ass, Avengers.
Linhasxoc Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
Jun 21st 2012 at 10:11:51 AM

Well, in fairness, most of the Flame Bait-prone politician articles (e.g. Barack Obama) are edit-locked.

EDIT: turns out George W Bush isn't edit-locked.

edited 21st Jun '12 10:12:17 AM by Linhasxoc

32_Footsteps Think of the mooks! from Just north of Arkham Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
Jun 21st 2012 at 11:31:31 AM

I believe that George W Bush was previously locked but subsequently became unlocked because tensions around his presidency mostly died down as folks focused on Barack Obama instead, fair or no.

I do see one huge issue with George w. Bush's page - quite a few of the supposed tropes listed aren't about him. They are, instead, commentary on staff members of his administration. Even if you find it fair to trope about him, it strikes me as out of bounds to be discussing his subordinates in such a fashion (particularly as several of them are controversial... I don't care if you think Colin Powell should count either as a Defector from Decadence or The Starscream, neither should be cited about the man).

As a side note, I find it funny that he gets cited for Disease Bleach. If that's the case, I think practically every U.S. President could be cited for that. I think Bill Clinton actually claimed that the office of the presidency ages a person in dog years. For every president since Ronald Reagan, at least, a before-and-after comparison of them is sobering.

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
Fighteer Geronimo! from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Geronimo!
Jun 21st 2012 at 11:37:44 AM

If we wanted an article about Bush's administration, we would have UsefulNotes.The George W Bush Administration. In fact, that's not a bad idea, except that we are still not about troping real life stuff.

As part of the process of vetting these pages for conversion to Useful Notes, all tropes not directly related to their fictional appearances should be removed.

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