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MOD NOTE: Please note the following part of the forum rules:

If you don't like a thread, don't post in it. Posting in a thread simply to say you don't like it, or that it's stupid, or to point out that you 'knew who made it before you even clicked on it', or to predict that it will end badly will get you warned.

The initial OP posted below covers it well enough: the premise of this thread is that men's issues exist. Don't bother posting if you don't believe there is such a thing.


Here's hoping this isn't considered too redundant. I've noticed that our existing threads about sexism tend to get bogged down in Oppression Olympics or else wildly derailed, so I thought I'd make a thread specifically to talk about discrimination issues that disproportionately affect men.

No Oppression Olympics here, okay? No saying "But that's not important because women suffer X which is worse!" And no discussing these issues purely in terms of how much better women have it. Okay? If the discussion cannot meaningfully proceed without making a comparison to male and female treatment, that's fine, but on the whole I want this thread to be about how men are harmed by society and how we can fix it. Issues like:

  • The male-only draft (in countries that have one)
  • Circumcision
  • Cavalier attitudes toward men's pain and sickness, AKA "Walk it off!"
  • The Success Myth, which defines a man's desirability by his material success. Also The Myth of Men Not Being Hot, which denies that men can be sexually attractive as male beings.
  • Sexual abuse of men.
  • Family law.
  • General attitudes that men are dangerous or untrustworthy.

I could go on making the list, but I think you get the idea.

Despite what you might have heard about feminists not caring about men, it's not true. I care about men. Patriarchy sucks for them as much as it sucks for women, in a lot of ways. So I'm putting my keyboard where my mouth is and making a thread for us to all care about men.

Also? If you're male and think of something as a men's issue, by golly that makes it a men's issue fit for inclusion in this thread. I might disagree with you as to the solution, but as a woman I'm not going to tell you you have no right to be concerned about it. No "womansplaining" here.

Edited by nombretomado on Dec 15th 2019 at 5:19:34 AM

KRider Desire Grand Prix Entry from Origin System Since: Feb, 2021
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#22526: Jul 27th 2025 at 3:10:47 AM

Another thing that can compare the outrage machine with is a drug addiction. Some men are addicted to getting angry over scapegoats and actively seek out such conflicts.

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LoneCourier0 The Wandering Geek from A Diverse Land (Unitroper) Relationship Status: How YOU doin'?
The Wandering Geek
#22527: Jul 27th 2025 at 3:13:04 AM

A bit of tangent, but so is doomscrolling.

"Cynicism is not realistic and tough. It's unrealistic and kind of cowardly because it means you don't have to try."
PhysicalStamina ain't nothin' but a party y'all (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
ain't nothin' but a party y'all
#22528: Jul 27th 2025 at 6:13:18 PM

There's a massive amount of overlap.

Do not spare the feelings of those who would not spare yours.
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#22529: Jul 27th 2025 at 8:42:41 PM

[up][up][up] I think one of the most irritating parts is the hypocrisy on display, for all their talk about their version of manliness and being stoic, they are still by the end of the day rambling about movies intended for children, harassing actors while hiding behind their fanbase, and failing to create anything of value.

For all their talk about strength, they sure like to bully those they think are weaker than them and cry when faced with even the slightest challenge from their victims.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
dRoy Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar from Most likely from my study Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just high on the world
Professional Writer & Amateur Scholar
#22530: Jul 29th 2025 at 6:50:43 PM

Random rambling.

So, the sun and the heat where I live are getting unbearably stronger every day. It got to a point where I couldn't take anymore and went "F- it, Imma try using parasol."

...And HOLY CRAP, did that make shocking amount of difference. Unfortunately, that also led some "masculine" guy around me to point out how parasols are for women.

Whenever I hear that kind of comment I just reply: Well, sun doesn't discriminate, does it?

Men using parasols (or just umbrellas) under extremely strong sun should be normalized, y'all.

Continuously reading, studying, and (hopefully) growing.
KRider Desire Grand Prix Entry from Origin System Since: Feb, 2021
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#22531: Jul 29th 2025 at 7:05:27 PM

[up]Ya it's 1 of those Macho Masochism attitudes that men obsessed with manliness think it makes them tough but only makes them look like idiots.

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alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
#22532: Jul 29th 2025 at 11:18:48 PM

Eh it depends on the kinds of heat too. When the air itself feels like a furnace the parasol just helps avoid sunburns.

Ookamikun This is going to be so much fun. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
This is going to be so much fun.
#22533: Jul 30th 2025 at 8:40:09 PM

Nowadays even the buff, bodybuilder look is usually laughed at.

KRider Desire Grand Prix Entry from Origin System Since: Feb, 2021
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#22534: Jul 30th 2025 at 9:11:22 PM

The roided out bodybuilder physique hasn't been as popular as it used to be back in the 80s and 90s especially once MMA became popular. The revelation that a lot of bodybuilders used steroids plus the stigma that grew around steroid use also hurt bodybuilding.

Edited by KRider on Jul 31st 2025 at 12:12:21 AM

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Demongodofchaos2 Face me now, bitch! from In a Cultivation World (Ancient one) Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Face me now, bitch!
#22535: Jul 31st 2025 at 6:28:39 AM

Powerlifting is in now, which emphasizes a more bulky look.

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AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#22536: Jul 31st 2025 at 6:45:39 AM

With the wellness and fitness influencers, body building and powerlifting is still in vogue.

The peak physique crowd still pushing for the low fat, ripped and swole bodies. Despite that plenty of those influencers selling their training and nutrition programs, they still use a load of steroids.

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Demongodofchaos2 Face me now, bitch! from In a Cultivation World (Ancient one) Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Face me now, bitch!
#22537: Jul 31st 2025 at 6:50:19 AM

Creatine, protein power, and Preworkout (In safe doses due to the caffiene) is all you really need, I find, alongside a low carb, and higher amounts of protein and fat diet.

And Creatine in partiocular has benefits beyond just working out.

Edited by Demongodofchaos2 on Jul 31st 2025 at 9:51:11 AM

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KRider Desire Grand Prix Entry from Origin System Since: Feb, 2021
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#22538: Jul 31st 2025 at 6:52:23 AM

I think crossfit is also a popular trend now along with obstacle courses inspired by Sasuke. Not familiar with the cultures in powerlifting and crossfit but one thing these along with MMA have in common is that the people involved in it have more functional muscles for lack of better term compared to the bulky bodybuilder look that's more for show. Today's bodybuilders also look a bit less bulky than the generation of Dorian Yates.

Edited by KRider on Jul 31st 2025 at 9:53:17 PM

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HeyMikey Since: Jul, 2015
#22539: Jul 31st 2025 at 7:51:41 AM

It somewhat amuses me that toxic masculinity from a body image perspective through a United States lens doesn't include the more effeminate pretty boy look.

Toxic masculinity usually focuses on a few general characteristics, revolving around accepted emotions (anger and stoicism), exuding strength and dominance, and sowing ones seeds. As shown with the popularity of a lot of teenage girl focused media and the explosion of East Asian boy pop idols, you don't need that bulky, swole look to be popular with the ladies, a svelte effeminate properly groomed look can also work (and can be just as difficult to maintain). Yet pointing towards male objectification from our societal lens points towards bodybuilders and athletes, but not lean twinks.

GearFriedTheKnight BLOCKING - A weapon for the 21st century. from The nearest road that can be raced (Experienced Trainee) Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
BLOCKING - A weapon for the 21st century.
#22540: Jul 31st 2025 at 8:20:45 AM

Stoicism isn't an "emotion" per se, it's a Greek school of thought and philosophy that aims at casting away emotions to find happiness. Personally? I see it as an encouragement for apathy and disinterest in anything that isn't self-serving — which is why another philosophy that has stoic elements, cynicism, hasn't returned to the modern limelight: Diogenes advocates to renounce wordly possessions alongside social conduct and emotions, which modern stoics think is "commie garbage" or something.

As for the "twink" thing, it's... complicated, but tl;dr it's rooted in ancient cultures' ideals of what constitutes "manly" (or what they think are the ancient ideals). Small hips, broad shoulders and all that.

''There's no magic in tuning; yet, it's something that tends to escape from any logic."
HeyMikey Since: Jul, 2015
#22541: Jul 31st 2025 at 9:47:00 AM

But one of those manly ideals is to be able grab ladies attention. There are toxic subcultures relating to various aspects of manhood. Ones lack of emotion except in anger leading to holding or bottling emotions. Being dominating, with displays of strength and aggression resulting in strong man tactics and alpha male thinking.

This leads itself towards certain social behaviors like being the main breadwinner and focus towards wealth to the detriment of everything else. It's also why supposedly non-manly pursuits try to emulate masculine-coded behaviors, like turning geek culture in anti-woman gatekeepers.

So, one can be diminished in manhood in one way, but make it up in others. One can be a boorish fat slob, but if you're rich and dominating, you could be considered an ideal of manhood, rather than just an assholish loser. So if these lean, well-groomed dandies are getting it with the ladies, why isn't it championed as critically as others? It's just interesting that one of the supposed ideal Pillars of manhood gets discarded. But one of the big observations of toxic masculinity is it's complexity in how self-contradicting it can be.

raziel365 Anka Aquila from South of the Far West (Veteran) Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
Anka Aquila
#22542: Jul 31st 2025 at 4:28:18 PM

[up][up]

Stoicism as a philosophy is meant to help people endure harsh conditions they can't change, hence its popularity at the beginning of the Hellenistic period, when the Greek city states ended up dominated by the successor kingdoms, or from the Early Roman Empire onward with what the fall of the Roman Republic. The phrase "when life gives you lemons, make lemonade" fits more or less within this framework.

The limits however of this philosophy is when it lulls people into accepting things that should not be accepted or that can actually be changed through action, whether active or passive. (And I would be remiss to not include Cave Johnson's lemon speech.)

Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, we should find the absolutes that tie us.
Ookamikun This is going to be so much fun. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
This is going to be so much fun.
#22543: Jul 31st 2025 at 4:28:55 PM

[up][up][up][up]It is if you pivot to the eastern side of the world. Basically you're a freak/brute if you don't appeal to a certain effeminate beauty.

Edited by Ookamikun on Jul 31st 2025 at 4:29:11 AM

KRider Desire Grand Prix Entry from Origin System Since: Feb, 2021
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#22544: Jul 31st 2025 at 6:08:48 PM

[up][up][up]While the pretty boy aesthetic is mostly popular in East Asia and a few places in Southeast Asia, the rest of the world's standards on manliness still falls in line with the Western world's definition of manliness which is brute force and anger being the only accepted emotion and the pretty boy aesthetic will always be seen as effeminate and weak to this worldview. Not to mention machismo, which in some ways is even more toxic than toxic masculinity, overrides all of it in areas affected by Spanish colonization.

Edited by KRider on Jul 31st 2025 at 9:09:55 PM

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Stage7-4 Since: Nov, 2014
#22545: Aug 1st 2025 at 9:31:20 AM

So if these lean, well-groomed dandies are getting it with the ladies, why isn't it championed as critically as others?

The toxic masculine ideal physique isn't necessarily for attracting women (although some certainly think that's what it's for), but as personification of it's own dogma: power and dominance. Huge muscles and feats of strength are associated with both, which is why the patriarchal ideal man is so divorced from what most women actually want. It's about visually showing yourself as above other men because you're so big and buff and could punch their faces in, which is why you deserve women and they don't. Like most things dealing with toxic masculinity, women are a commodity and their actual opinions don't matter.

And for as many times as K-pop idols have been brought up, they're still just a feminine ideal of masculinity. Eastern nations still have their own toxic male ideal, it just tends to look more like Solo Leveling's Sung Jinwoo than Chris Hemsworth's Thor. While being really tall with a lean but extremely toned physique is a tenant, their power and dominance fantasy is expressed more through accomplishments than biceps. Being top in their class, a high paying job at a wealthy company, being exemplary in their field, etc.

So when you watch Chris Evans flex his biceps super hard to hold a helicopter in place in Captain America: Civil War, know that's for us guys. Generally women might be amused but don't really care about that. But damn do I wish I could hold a helicopter in place if I flexed hard enough. And I lift weights and follow fitness influencers and take martial arts classes, but I'm self-aware enough to realize this is all just for me and me alone.

I bring up that helicopter scene a lot because while in the movie it's to show just how ripped Chris Evans is, behind the scenes he severely injured his arm trying to do it.

Edited by Stage7-4 on Aug 1st 2025 at 10:30:41 AM

AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#22546: Aug 1st 2025 at 10:32:34 AM

I think it also varies from region to region.

I've gotten a feeling that South American women enjoy more traditionally masculine men. I partially believe that the whole machismo in South American society also reflect on women. More than once I've seen women giving shit to skinny guys, because they wanted a real manTM and that usually involved all the regular tropes about hunk masculine men.

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Stage7-4 Since: Nov, 2014
#22547: Aug 1st 2025 at 10:54:52 AM

I don't know enough about South American media to discuss that.

But I do know that women aren't immune from having patriarchal values nor supporting toxic masculinity. In the US, women might still trend to value sensitive boy band idols but then there's NRA moms that think their boys need to eat red meat and never cry.

AegisP Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man
#22548: Aug 1st 2025 at 11:12:02 AM

[up][up] I can vouch for that, there's some K or J pop fangirls but most women want their men manly. But I am gay and my sisters are super super supportive so I never ever felt discriminated by women. Women tend to be awesome towards me.

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raziel365 Anka Aquila from South of the Far West (Veteran) Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
Anka Aquila
#22549: Aug 1st 2025 at 1:24:54 PM

I can at least confirm that there's some degree of "macho" behaviour that is normalised even if it's wrong when you think about it.

Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, we should find the absolutes that tie us.
KRider Desire Grand Prix Entry from Origin System Since: Feb, 2021
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#22550: Aug 1st 2025 at 7:14:07 PM

Even male gamers, especially the older ones such as those from my generation, exhibit traits common in toxic masculinity and machismo and often to a greater degree than the actual buff athletes despite male gamers being stereotyped as not physically imposing. Specifically the need to dominate, treating women like sex objects, extreme queerphobia and anger being the only acceptable emotion and all of these are treated as natural or even moral.

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