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MOD NOTE: Please note the following part of the forum rules:

If you don't like a thread, don't post in it. Posting in a thread simply to say you don't like it, or that it's stupid, or to point out that you 'knew who made it before you even clicked on it', or to predict that it will end badly will get you warned.

The initial OP posted below covers it well enough: the premise of this thread is that men's issues exist. Don't bother posting if you don't believe there is such a thing.


Here's hoping this isn't considered too redundant. I've noticed that our existing threads about sexism tend to get bogged down in Oppression Olympics or else wildly derailed, so I thought I'd make a thread specifically to talk about discrimination issues that disproportionately affect men.

No Oppression Olympics here, okay? No saying "But that's not important because women suffer X which is worse!" And no discussing these issues purely in terms of how much better women have it. Okay? If the discussion cannot meaningfully proceed without making a comparison to male and female treatment, that's fine, but on the whole I want this thread to be about how men are harmed by society and how we can fix it. Issues like:

  • The male-only draft (in countries that have one)
  • Circumcision
  • Cavalier attitudes toward men's pain and sickness, AKA "Walk it off!"
  • The Success Myth, which defines a man's desirability by his material success. Also The Myth of Men Not Being Hot, which denies that men can be sexually attractive as male beings.
  • Sexual abuse of men.
  • Family law.
  • General attitudes that men are dangerous or untrustworthy.

I could go on making the list, but I think you get the idea.

Despite what you might have heard about feminists not caring about men, it's not true. I care about men. Patriarchy sucks for them as much as it sucks for women, in a lot of ways. So I'm putting my keyboard where my mouth is and making a thread for us to all care about men.

Also? If you're male and think of something as a men's issue, by golly that makes it a men's issue fit for inclusion in this thread. I might disagree with you as to the solution, but as a woman I'm not going to tell you you have no right to be concerned about it. No "womansplaining" here.

Edited by nombretomado on Dec 15th 2019 at 5:19:34 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#22176: Apr 9th 2025 at 12:03:24 AM

You could say the same about Jojo's Bizarre Adventure, though the recent anime adaptations and games have done a lot to make the series more well known outside of Japan.

Disgusted, but not surprised
SpookyMask Since: Jan, 2011
#22177: Apr 9th 2025 at 2:42:38 AM

Ye definitely, though in that case I think it has result of people assuming Jojo is only goofy instead of serious story with extreme amount of goofy moments

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#22178: Apr 9th 2025 at 2:48:32 AM

By contrast, Fist of the North Star's original manga and anime aren't that well known outside of Japan. That's probably why it's mostly known only for its memes.

Edited by M84 on Apr 9th 2025 at 5:49:25 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Demongodofchaos2 Face me now, bitch! from In a Cultivation World (Ancient one) Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Face me now, bitch!
#22179: Apr 9th 2025 at 4:55:12 AM

There was a new anime announced about a year and a half ago for the series's 40th anniversary, but its been radio silent for a while. The studio that's been chosen is silent because i'm sure they definitely want to cook with it the best they can, as Fist of the North Star is arguably the most influential Manga of its time, almost more so then either Dragon Ball or Jojo.

Fingers crossed for Anime Expo....

Edited by Demongodofchaos2 on Apr 9th 2025 at 7:56:57 AM

Watch Symphogear
RLH4 Cool Loser from Midgard Since: Sep, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Cool Loser
#22180: Apr 9th 2025 at 7:24:30 AM

[up] Ah, so you're hoping the adaptation isn't... already dead?

Clown To Clown Handshake Initiating...
Risa123 Since: Dec, 2021 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#22181: Apr 9th 2025 at 7:25:47 AM

I had to look up the thread name to know that I'm not in politics in media...

KRider Desire Grand Prix Entry from Origin System Since: Feb, 2021
Desire Grand Prix Entry
#22182: Apr 9th 2025 at 7:30:48 AM

The discussion did arise from looking for examples of role models of positive masculinity in media. We can move the discussion to the Politics in Media thread.

Set! Avenge! "Henshin." Black General! Bujin Sword! Ready, Fight!
Stage7-4 Since: Nov, 2014
#22183: Apr 9th 2025 at 7:41:06 AM

Part of the uphill battle on dismantling the patriarchy is just making the message of being a healthy male look appealing over being a warrior, which is a tough sell. Comparatively, women's movements involve taking power: fight for the right to vote, fight for the jobs you were denied, fight to be more than just a housewife, fight to be heard, etc.

The men's movement is unfortunately more zen. That it's okay to need help, it's okay to show your feelings, it's okay to need therapy. Your sexual prowess doesn't define you as a man, inner strength is more important than your muscles, and your goals should focus on self improvement instead of following society's checklist. And it's very nice...

...but on the other side the patriarchy has always been shouting from it's throne "FIGHT TO THE DEATH IN MY NAME AND YOU SHALL HAVE HOOKERS & BLOW!" The only change since the medieval times is it's now "WORK YOURSELF TO DEATH IN MY NAME!" If you aren't getting hookers & blow? Then you either aren't working yourself to death hard enough, or the hookers need to get back in line. And despite all the red flags, most men have been falsely sold on hookers & blow and it's gonna take a lot to sell them on healthy living. Because it just sounds cooler.

KRider Desire Grand Prix Entry from Origin System Since: Feb, 2021
Desire Grand Prix Entry
#22184: Apr 9th 2025 at 7:49:00 AM

Part of the overlap w/ Politics in Media is that for every examples of positive masculinity like Ted Lasso you have a lot more media promoting toxic masculinity in a louder voice like 300, Vikings (the show), American Sniper, etc.

Set! Avenge! "Henshin." Black General! Bujin Sword! Ready, Fight!
LoneCourier0 The Wandering Geek from A Diverse Land (Unitroper) Relationship Status: How YOU doin'?
The Wandering Geek
#22185: Apr 9th 2025 at 7:50:27 AM

You know, this talk of masculinity makes me think of a potential Deconstructor Fleet of Isekai that involves the Power Fantasy and harem aspects of it... By showing the two kinds of masculinity.

"Cynicism is not realistic and tough. It's unrealistic and kind of cowardly because it means you don't have to try."
raziel365 Anka Aquila from South of the Far West (Veteran) Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
Anka Aquila
#22186: Apr 9th 2025 at 8:01:53 AM

[up][up][up]

On one hand, you could appeal to honour as a way to temper this. On the other though, you still haven't solved the problem of getting men to accept that they don't need to be extraordinary to matter as people.

Edited by raziel365 on Apr 9th 2025 at 8:53:57 AM

Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, we should find the absolutes that tie us.
KRider Desire Grand Prix Entry from Origin System Since: Feb, 2021
Desire Grand Prix Entry
#22187: Apr 9th 2025 at 8:09:57 AM

Media depictions of all types celebrating toxic masculinity is also partly why it's an uphill battle fighting against it as well as its addictive appeal across a wide spectrum of straight cis-men from jocks to geeks. Not to mention media depictions also make it harder for men to look for much-needed help when it comes to problems like mental illnesses or especially being victims of sexual assault.

Set! Avenge! "Henshin." Black General! Bujin Sword! Ready, Fight!
Stage7-4 Since: Nov, 2014
#22188: Apr 9th 2025 at 8:38:29 AM

[up][up] Exactly.

Take "Real Men Wear Pink" for example. It's pointing out the absurdity that things like color are gender coded, but in a way that reinforces male insecurities.

LoneCourier0 The Wandering Geek from A Diverse Land (Unitroper) Relationship Status: How YOU doin'?
The Wandering Geek
#22189: Apr 9th 2025 at 10:42:26 AM

[up][up]Doesn't mean it's hopeless.

"Cynicism is not realistic and tough. It's unrealistic and kind of cowardly because it means you don't have to try."
CosmosAndChaos Peach from Brazil (Don’t ask) Relationship Status: Hugging my pillow
Peach
#22190: Apr 9th 2025 at 11:29:16 AM

[up][up][up]Yeah, people acknowledging the existence of boys who were victims of child sexual abuse, but not the existence of grown men who were raped makes it seem like when a boy becomes an adult, he becomes immune to sexual violence. Which is not the case.

"Oh, did I win?"
KRider Desire Grand Prix Entry from Origin System Since: Feb, 2021
Desire Grand Prix Entry
#22191: Apr 9th 2025 at 7:33:48 PM

[up]There's even a double standard when it comes to rape. To men who drink the machismo kool-aid, a man can't be raped by a woman "because he must have enjoyed it" not to mention the homophobic implications/insinuations whenever a man is raped by another man.

Edited by KRider on Apr 10th 2025 at 12:18:50 AM

Set! Avenge! "Henshin." Black General! Bujin Sword! Ready, Fight!
erazor0707 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
#22192: Apr 9th 2025 at 7:40:57 PM

[up][up] Worse, depending additional factors like, say, ethnic minority status, some boys don't even get that.

GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#22193: Apr 11th 2025 at 9:28:43 AM

I’m sure most have heard of the slogan, “Bring Back Masculinity” from some right-wing You Tube influencer. It’s unclear where this sentiment came from, but it seems as though some men feel they need to bring back traditional male values. Naturally, those concepts receive criticisms, as we can see in this thread.

I’ve also heard of modern masculinity as a thing, but even that gets criticized for avoiding responsibility or other positive values. Modern masculinity is a great example of where you see that in a trend. I personally think it’s great, but I can understand the backlash.

I don’t really have strong opinions one way or another. I do want to know what other people think of this?

"Fan, a Mega Man character."
Stage7-4 Since: Nov, 2014
#22194: Apr 12th 2025 at 8:02:04 AM

It's no mystery where that sentiment came from, we're just not allowed to say it much because the orange tyrant is a banned subject.

On the macro level, pushes for "traditonal male values" happen in cycles multiple times, particularly whenever the patriarchy feels threatened. Whenever men as a whole start to catch on that the social structure really sucks, the ones responsible for that structure redirect their anger at the wrong target (women, usually women) so the masses fight while the paradigm remains. So men feeling miserable and alone right now isn't due to the cost of living being astronomical, wages stagnating, bombardment of "ideal man" propaganda impossible to achieve, and social spaces either shrinking or becoming too expensive to be accessible. No, it's DEI's fault for letting women, minorities, and queers corrupt the system. Join the elite so we can put them back in the kitchen!

I'm curious what you mean about the "modern masculinity" trend because from my perspective the modern man hasn't changed except superficially. Are you talking about those fitness influencers that get up before 4 am and dunk their faces in a bowl of ice water then rub their skin with banana peels?

Edited by Stage7-4 on Apr 12th 2025 at 8:03:07 AM

KRider Desire Grand Prix Entry from Origin System Since: Feb, 2021
Desire Grand Prix Entry
#22195: Apr 12th 2025 at 8:31:32 AM

[up]In addition to that, there's centuries to millenia of toxic male culture that's burrowed deep into most cultures and some religions, especially expansionist cultures and religions who include convert the nonbeliever as 1 of their core tenets, that men throughout the ages have acquired a distorted view of masculinity.

Set! Avenge! "Henshin." Black General! Bujin Sword! Ready, Fight!
GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#22196: Apr 12th 2025 at 6:22:09 PM

[up][up] & [up] I meant in how modern masculine traits that subvert traditional masculine traits. Where men can display emotions, empathy, and growth.

"Fan, a Mega Man character."
KRider Desire Grand Prix Entry from Origin System Since: Feb, 2021
Desire Grand Prix Entry
#22197: Apr 12th 2025 at 6:40:18 PM

[up]While there is a very vocal effort in reinforcing toxic masculinity (w/ government backing in far too many countries to boot), there are some countries where the younger generation of men are outgrowing the conservative mindset. Take here in the Philippines for example. While a lot of Boomers, Gen X-ers and men born in the 1980s still cling to machismo here, the younger generation of men are more accepting of women and LGBTQ+ in industries outside of entertainment and hair salons and the old belief of gay/bi = trans is slowly fading away. This also includes being more open to showing emotions and gestures like hugging.

One of the oddest places to find more empathic men is in the indy scene of pro wrestling as younger and newer wrestlers are more open about their sexuality and no longer face discrimination from many of their fellow wrestlers and both the Gorgeous George and Foreign Heel gimmicks are no longer in use as heel gimmicks outside the most outlaw promotions. Keywords are Indy and Younger as a lot of older wrestlers (most often those who have had success in big promotions like WWE, WCW and early TNA) still have the toxic machismo mindset.

Edited by KRider on Apr 12th 2025 at 9:48:48 PM

Set! Avenge! "Henshin." Black General! Bujin Sword! Ready, Fight!
Gabo352 Since: Jun, 2016
#22198: Apr 13th 2025 at 4:22:27 PM

So, a while back people were arguing on this thread about how how young men SEEM to have become more right-leaning recently, and someone said that one of the causes was that they are being taught by the media to value "pragmatism" over idealism, which they called an antithesis to empathy. Now, while I'm not arguing that they're made to believe that, I don't really think that's completely accurate. I tend to see most human interactions as transactions and even then I recognize the value of treating people nicely even if they don't seem to be able to give something in exchange, for the simple fact other people care about how you treat others, and also that just because someone can't return the favor now doesn't mean they cannot do it later.

Sure you could argue against the first point saying that inside a right-winger's social circle, most people wouldn't care whether or not they hurt a minority, but similarly they wouldn't care if you suddenly lost all your money or suffered from an accident that left you invalid, cause for them everybody must look out for themselves. And that's the thing, promoting an environment were everyone is obligated to look out for others is an investment, that will more often than not benefit you, that's the basics of bonding, empathy evolved because it has practical uses. Of course, many right-wingers have probably falled into the trap of thinking they're invincible, which is a direct result of riding the power trip the toxic masculine ideal offers them. The idea that they can be self-sufficient, and will never need anyone ever.

But, even them, should have at least the basic notion of the benefits of living in a society considering how they all seem to love the current system and usually appeal to the idea of the social contract to defend it. Granted, not all of them do, and I realize the social contract theory doesn't promote good behavior at is core, because it hinges on the notion that the moment society falls or it stops giving you what you want, you no longer need to care about anyone but yourself. It's up to you whether you believe societal collapse is something that can actually happen or even if we're heading into it, but it is a given that's the idea most young men are being feed, and the one most extremists use as excuse to commit atrocities.

But most people on the left would realize that "every man for himself“ isn't the way to solve those issues, groups of people can achieve more than the sum of their parts, a clear example of that is how two people who once where able to barely make enough money to get by individually, can produce a surplus as a couple. If that can be achieved by two people, what cannot be achieved by society at large? Obviously, the problem with trying to tell more right leaning people this is that they believe some people are simply useless and that their contribution to society would be minimal, they don't understand that most people after being given the right tools, or the necessary help, will eventually give back to society, or they assume that any attempt to achieve this will eventually fail due to friction leading to human error or selfishness. And that there's no reliable way to reduce said factors.

But all of that sounds to me like a result of people making the wrong assumptions, more than it does pragmatism being contrary to empathy.

All of the above just leads me to think that what they need is to learn about something I read about once: Selfish Altruism, or the notion that the smartest thing a selfish person can do is to be altruistic, we don't pay taxes to benefit others, we do it because at some point we may need government help (and because doing so should, in theory, guarantee that the services we use are well maintained), we don't help the environment to make other people happy, we do so because we live in this planet, and because, locally, we'd rather live somewhere NICE, etc. Granted, some people don't care about those things, and that's the issue, not that they're pragmatic but that they don't understand how important those things are for themselves/their lineage (either because of ignorance, or because they believe themselves invincible because of money and power, or because they have their attention diverted towards other things) or they simply don't care about themselves/their lineage at all, which is another issue altogether.

It applies to society in the fact that how you treat others affect how other people treat you. It's is something almost everybody "knows" but don't really seem to understand what it implies (or want to give the impression they don't care because they don't like to be "controlled", which may be a result of innate personality traits or past trauma) or they draw the wrong conclusions from it, leading to another problematic behavior in men, that of the "nice guy" who believes he's entitled to a womans affection just because he was nice to her.

To be clear, I honestly don't think there is anything unhealthy with relationships being transactional, I think the real problem is that nice guys unilaterally decide what's up for exchange and what they must do to obtain it and then impose that on every person they like, when in any type of human relationship said things should be a negotiation between both individuals with the caveat that any of them should have the right to end the relationship for any reason (which doesn't mean doing so is always right, because sometimes it may be an attempt at emotional manipulation, but the point is you cannot force other people to be in a relationship with you).

I just wish there was a way to teach that to others in a way they can understand it, without dismissing the notion or drawing the wrong conclusions from it (aka, if I help others it means I'm entitled to their admiration and they're not allowed to call me out on anything bad I did).

tl;dr: Pragmatism isn't the opposite of empathy, people who believe that are just making the wrong assumption that empathy will never benefit them, most human relationships are transactional, which doesn't mean you get to unilaterally decide what people "owe" you, it should always be a negotiation and collaborating usually yields better results. Do you agree this is something most men should learn? Or do you have some concerns about this approach to empathy?

Edited by Gabo352 on Apr 13th 2025 at 4:34:22 AM

HeyMikey Since: Jul, 2015
#22199: Apr 13th 2025 at 5:17:14 PM

I feel a lot of people don't understand that empathy and pragmaticism are two different areas of thought, similar to how people think emotion and logic are in conflict with each other, when emotions usually deal in one's priorities and sense of self and logic is a means of coming to conclusions based upon initial values or conditions.

Empathy is a means of understanding, in this case, a means of understanding peoples thoughts and emotions by being able to mentally share another person's perspective. Pragmaticism is mostly the idea of solving things via practical solutions, instead of what are considered idealistic or theoretical solutions.

Pragmaticism does have benefits in meeting problems currently, based on current resources, but theoretical and idealistic solutions have possibilities of having steps of major growth. Pragmaticism sometimes combines with idealistic thought as a means of tempering those ideas, so that you don't lose progress. Basically this Lincoln quote "A compass, I learnt when I was surveying, it'll—it'll point you True North from where you're standing, but it's got no advice about the swamps and deserts and chasms that you'll encounter along the way." where the theoretical solution is the compass pointing True North, and pragmaticism being the map of swamps and chasms along the way.

One does not need to be altruistic to understand that altruistic solutions have some major benefits if you're being pragmatic, but that's only in the grand scheme of things. It means that the society is more robust and capable of helping should you have issues. It means that there are fewer people that would cause you hardships and more people will be able to stand up for you should they do. It means a bigger community that can share resources. When people go against these values, it's for various reasons where these values break down.

If you don't care about a robust environment, it's because you feel you can square off a piece for yourself that you can keep pristine, while the rest of the world burns. If you think you don't need the help, you'd rather go for more power and resources. Someone for instance who has a high paying job with a high salary, who can pay for their own healthcare, their own insurance, buy their own resources, don't care for more socialized solutions. If you feel you're already in the powered majority, why add more people to the pot? And if your majority or community have tricked themselves into thinking they're well off, kicking out the minority means more for them. They don't see the value in what another community they're less connected to can bring. They don't see that they might not be as in control as they think they are. They deny themselves an ally, because they relate to the people perpetuating the system that oppresses them.

And how this relates to men's issues is a good chunk of men feel all these hardships, but feel it's because another oppressed group is coming and taking the small piece of the pie they worked for, and not the people on top who took the majority already and isn't willing to share. They would rather stick with them in their community because it keeps the hierarchy where they have some minor power in name only, rather than with others to have some better equitability. That's them sticking up for the patriarchy. The patriarchy says that if they stick with this system, they will be rewarded and the reason it's not working right now is all these other "oppressed people" trying to break down the system. You just need to stand with the people that controls everything and are actually the ones who caused a lot of this social strife. It happens in a lot of areas, being it economics, social interactions, or media. It's not the higher ups not sharing the wealth around, it's the women entering the workforce or DEI causing you to have to compete with more people and giving the work over to the undeserving. It's not because society has basically atomized social interaction removing all ways to know people in economically sustainable ways and emotionally healthy ways, it's that women in society are taught to hate men, while also changing all the rules on us so we can't tell jokes anymore. It's not that media is expanding to accept more people and you still have plenty of options that to cater to you, if you would only share the space, it's that normies and newbies are coming in and taking away our media, so that now all the women are no longer hot (even though you still have so many options to get horny to).

Edited by HeyMikey on Apr 13th 2025 at 5:19:30 AM

Demongodofchaos2 Face me now, bitch! from In a Cultivation World (Ancient one) Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Face me now, bitch!
#22200: Apr 13th 2025 at 6:16:20 PM

NGL, if you actually talked to younger Gen Z men and told them all that, they'd just scoff and rebel even harder against that line of thinking, while simultaneously also seeing it as not actually listening to them.

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